R8 vs M3 vs 911 Turbo vs "Other" car
#167
03-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Magazine racing = getting best times from different magazines to show one car is faster than the other. (different driver, different conditions)
I wouldn't call a test performed by the same driver at the same track by the same organization "magazine racing." It's called comparison.
I wouldn't call a test performed by the same driver at the same track by the same organization "magazine racing." It's called comparison.
Maclaren F1 1:21.2
Enzo 1.21.3
superleggera 1:21.8
599 GTB 1:23.1
997TT 1:23.55
996 GT3 RS 1:24.2
F430 1:24.2
E92 M3 1:26.6
These were all driven on the same day?
I see what you are saying. Yes it is a comparison. But always happens is the arbitrary comparison of statistics from multiple sources, multiple tests. References from various sources are used as "data" to support a point of view. Hence, magazine racing. That's what I'm referring to. Not meant to be offensive, but this argument has come full circle again...and again...
Last edited by bbywu; 03-04-2008 at 04:25 PM.
#168
03-04-2008, 04:23 PM
After re-reading it, I say you are right on that. I think we've hit that magical moment when the Palestinians and Israelis find it so wonderful to pick at each other that they just don't stop despite the evidence that doing so would be far, far funner....
#169
03-04-2008, 04:30 PM
Gee, arrogant much? 
If you are experienced as you say you are, then you, out of everyone, should know how hard it is to shave few tenths of seconds from the lap times. (If you say it is easy, then you obviously are not driving with people who are skilled drivers.)
You may be a great driver, but no great driver will ever say it is "easy" to beat someone's time until they drive on the same race track. There are so many unknown variables until you are driving down the track at 9/10 - 10/10 level.
If you are experienced as you say you are, then you, out of everyone, should know how hard it is to shave few tenths of seconds from the lap times. (If you say it is easy, then you obviously are not driving with people who are skilled drivers.)You may be a great driver, but no great driver will ever say it is "easy" to beat someone's time until they drive on the same race track. There are so many unknown variables until you are driving down the track at 9/10 - 10/10 level.
No, I'm looking at non skilled drivers driving on these videos. Those lap times are EASY to take time off of. Time by pros are hard and when the car is driven at it's limit. Two completely different scenarios. I could name lists of guys who would do the same in terms of beating those ragedy times.
You can get a great idea from video where people are losing time and how much. Which is why racers ALWAYS have cameras in their car, and use it to have other critique it and do so themselves. There are always unknown variable, but spotting terrible driving is easy. It's harder to spot when someone is slow and following the right line, but the wrong line, drifting and sliding is easy to spot. You can watch and HPDE 1 guy with video in his car and I could tell you that it would take a good driver all of 2 laps to beat their times. These videos are about the same level of difficulty to tell that a good driver would go much faster.
A STOCK 996 TURBO WENT FASTER THAN EVO IN A CGT (as well as a second faster than the GT-R and over two seconds faster than a 997 GT3), if you only knew how retared that is, you wouldnt be arguing with me. DOES THAT NOT SAY ENOUGH?????????
The point is that I am not a great driver by any means, and I could go and beat those times with only a little time to learn the track.
#170
03-04-2008, 04:31 PM
996 Turbo 1:19.8
Carrera GT 1.19.7
Maclaren F1 1:21.2
Enzo 1.21.3
superleggera 1:21.8
599 GTB 1:23.1
997TT 1:23.55
996 GT3 RS 1:24.2
F430 1:24.2
E92 M3 1:26.6
These were all driven on the same day?
I see what you are saying. Yes it is a comparison. But always happens is the arbitrary comparison of statistics from multiple sources, multiple tests. References from various sources are used as "data" to support a point of view. Hence, magazine racing. That's what I'm referring to. Not meant to be offensive, but this argument has come full circle again...and again...
Carrera GT 1.19.7
Maclaren F1 1:21.2
Enzo 1.21.3
superleggera 1:21.8
599 GTB 1:23.1
997TT 1:23.55
996 GT3 RS 1:24.2
F430 1:24.2
E92 M3 1:26.6
These were all driven on the same day?
I see what you are saying. Yes it is a comparison. But always happens is the arbitrary comparison of statistics from multiple sources, multiple tests. References from various sources are used as "data" to support a point of view. Hence, magazine racing. That's what I'm referring to. Not meant to be offensive, but this argument has come full circle again...and again...
#171
03-04-2008, 04:42 PM
heavychevy, you are frankly full of it. You say there is no way the 997T would be slower in the corners than a GT-R or M3. Hmmm, have you gone bloody insane? Or are you just daft?
What? So a 997 TT is several MPH slower than an M3 on bald tires in several corners?
have YOU gone insane?
The 911 is a rear-wheel drive based, rear-mounted engine car. The 991 Turbo has AWD even, so not only does it have the weight all behind it (causing massive understeer), but it also has to work out which wheels get the power.HAHAH, this is your attempt at explaining handling dynamics? I'm not going to waist my time with this.
The M3 however is RWD with a front mounted engine, which is far superior for corners (the weight simply gets around better). The GT-R has a superior AWD system in addition to better weight distribution. Its fully possible for the GT-R to beat the 997 Turbo.
I didnt say it was impossible, but you obviously have no clue what you're talking about and are making wild generalizations based on such lack of knowledge. Your theories have been debunked long time ago. Do a search.
I've driven a new M3, and a 997 GT3. I know the P-car way of driving well. Both times on newly paved streets, not tracks. The M3 can indeed pull faster times than the GT3, it depends on the track. If it has lots of sharp, hard corners that you need to de-accelerate for, then yes, the GT3 can beat the M3 (not to mention, keep its brakes together). But when, three hours after our "track" driving (aka: leaping in and out of short streets in a neighborhood still under construction)(and stopping by my place to put new pads on the M3), we took it out to some public roads that had longer corners and no quick turns. The M3 pulled out ahead easily.
HAHAHAHA THe M3 can pull faster times than a GT3? Now you have really lost your marbles. There is no condition that favors the M3 enough to beat the GT3 if it's properly driven. PERIOD
So if the M3 can indeed perform better than the GT3, whats to say a car far beyond the capabilities of either, the GT-R, couldn't beat them? Or even the 997 GT3's big brother, the Turbo? Me and my friend with the cars obviously are not amazing drivers, we're just enthusiasts, but still.
You cant be that naive.
As to the 997 Turbo, once again, AWD system with rear mounted engine and rear biased drive. Unless you are doing the quick in-and-out corners, the GT-R wins.
And all this talk of P-car driving, doesn't that say something about us here at 6speed? That we won't give a car a chance, because obviously, if it beats the P-car in comparison, the P-car wasn't driven properly? Many of these magazine editors and reviewers have far more track time and lots more time behind the wheel of a Porsche than all but best of us. And I've read many publications where the reviewers are former Formula One drivers or have been in racing, would they not have P-car driving skills if they said another car was better? As to fastlaps.com, whats to say they are not biased themselves, who don't know how to properly drive non- P cars?
And seriously, who are you heavychevy? If you are like me or anyone else here on this site, you either have too much money and buy cars with it or have friends with nice cars, hence you and I aren't pro's, but just people with seat time. We're no better than armchair quarterbacks who yell at their TVs during the game because they played ball in high school. When experienced editors, drivers, and pro's give a car a good review, I think thats when we need to give some credit. I'm not like you. Especially if you think you could keep up with me anywhere in an M3. If you guys are going that slow, you need more practice.
The ultimate test, I think, will be if Top Gear lets James May try the GT-R versus the 997 Turbo. He's a big P-car fan, and if it could make him a believer...
What? So a 997 TT is several MPH slower than an M3 on bald tires in several corners?
have YOU gone insane?
The 911 is a rear-wheel drive based, rear-mounted engine car. The 991 Turbo has AWD even, so not only does it have the weight all behind it (causing massive understeer), but it also has to work out which wheels get the power.HAHAH, this is your attempt at explaining handling dynamics? I'm not going to waist my time with this.
The M3 however is RWD with a front mounted engine, which is far superior for corners (the weight simply gets around better). The GT-R has a superior AWD system in addition to better weight distribution. Its fully possible for the GT-R to beat the 997 Turbo.
I didnt say it was impossible, but you obviously have no clue what you're talking about and are making wild generalizations based on such lack of knowledge. Your theories have been debunked long time ago. Do a search.
I've driven a new M3, and a 997 GT3. I know the P-car way of driving well. Both times on newly paved streets, not tracks. The M3 can indeed pull faster times than the GT3, it depends on the track. If it has lots of sharp, hard corners that you need to de-accelerate for, then yes, the GT3 can beat the M3 (not to mention, keep its brakes together). But when, three hours after our "track" driving (aka: leaping in and out of short streets in a neighborhood still under construction)(and stopping by my place to put new pads on the M3), we took it out to some public roads that had longer corners and no quick turns. The M3 pulled out ahead easily.
HAHAHAHA THe M3 can pull faster times than a GT3? Now you have really lost your marbles. There is no condition that favors the M3 enough to beat the GT3 if it's properly driven. PERIOD
So if the M3 can indeed perform better than the GT3, whats to say a car far beyond the capabilities of either, the GT-R, couldn't beat them? Or even the 997 GT3's big brother, the Turbo? Me and my friend with the cars obviously are not amazing drivers, we're just enthusiasts, but still.
You cant be that naive.As to the 997 Turbo, once again, AWD system with rear mounted engine and rear biased drive. Unless you are doing the quick in-and-out corners, the GT-R wins.
And all this talk of P-car driving, doesn't that say something about us here at 6speed? That we won't give a car a chance, because obviously, if it beats the P-car in comparison, the P-car wasn't driven properly? Many of these magazine editors and reviewers have far more track time and lots more time behind the wheel of a Porsche than all but best of us. And I've read many publications where the reviewers are former Formula One drivers or have been in racing, would they not have P-car driving skills if they said another car was better? As to fastlaps.com, whats to say they are not biased themselves, who don't know how to properly drive non- P cars?
And seriously, who are you heavychevy? If you are like me or anyone else here on this site, you either have too much money and buy cars with it or have friends with nice cars, hence you and I aren't pro's, but just people with seat time. We're no better than armchair quarterbacks who yell at their TVs during the game because they played ball in high school. When experienced editors, drivers, and pro's give a car a good review, I think thats when we need to give some credit. I'm not like you. Especially if you think you could keep up with me anywhere in an M3. If you guys are going that slow, you need more practice.
The ultimate test, I think, will be if Top Gear lets James May try the GT-R versus the 997 Turbo. He's a big P-car fan, and if it could make him a believer...
The simple fact that you think that makes your whole post null and void.
#172
03-04-2008, 05:03 PM
Dude you seriously need to do some research and visit some tracks. You may see some noob drivers in a GT3 getting passed by much better drivers in an M3, but an M3 is no where near on the same playing feild.
The simple fact that you think that makes your whole post null and void.
The simple fact that you think that makes your whole post null and void.
"Look kids, its the elusive Porsche-snob. Not just restricted to your daddy's home state of New York and your mum's youth residence of Germany, this one is all the way out here in Georgia. Proof they can survive and reproduce outside of area's where over-priced fish eggs and martinis are common."
"If you look closely, you'll notice that his spelling is on par, par, mind you, with your dad's when he is drunk. His language also closely resembles that of a pre-teen on Call of Duty 4, and his boasting (about his car, no less) is strikingly similar to that of anyone who has ever seen The Fast and the Furious more than once and thought it was good cinema. Its with that that we can conclude his intelligence is on par with that of your average 10th grader, or, as you know, me, when I'm drunk. But also notice the lack of women, or style. Some Porsche snobs have these, but most just post pictures of women leaning over a Porsche on web forums. And notice the incredible flexibility of his spine."
"This is how you separate your daddy from the Porsche Snob. One, the Porsche snob, can fit his head all the way up his ***, and do it with minimal repercussions on society: no one, after all, listens to a Porsche snob, or can't, because his head is all the way up his ***. The other, myself, has a much stiffer backbone, and doesn't resort calling everyone's friends a "noob" or "newb" or "newblet" when his statements are challenged. Also, I tend to have many more friends, and not just due to being drunk. That may help, but even so, notice, yes here it is! Look kids, Porsche Snob vomit. The Porsche snob cannot hold his alcohol: this is due to his lack of British or Irish ancestry."
#173
03-04-2008, 05:12 PM
WHAT THE????????????????????
I'm a snob now because I say a 3600 lbs 414 hp gt cruiser M3 cant keep up with a GT3 that is 3200 lbs and 414 hp and shares 86% parts with a Cup Race car?
Wow. Please dont post anymore unless it's car related.
I do play call of duty 4 though.
I'm a snob now because I say a 3600 lbs 414 hp gt cruiser M3 cant keep up with a GT3 that is 3200 lbs and 414 hp and shares 86% parts with a Cup Race car?
Wow. Please dont post anymore unless it's car related.
I do play call of duty 4 though.
#175
03-04-2008, 05:20 PM
"Now kids, lets take some time to learn the redeeming qualities of the Porsche-snob......."
Seriously though, weight and power are only two of the metrics by which you can measure a car. The M3 has proven a grand car (still not anything someone should buy, but a grand car). There are many, many more by which you can measure.
BTW, my buddy with the GT3 and M3 is selling both, I know I'm not supposed to advertise but he wants to let everyone know the M3 only has 3300 miles on it and he is selling it for $49,000 firm. The GT3 you can make an offer on but don't expect to pick it up cheap. I think he may of said he sold it though, he just left so I'll send him a message and see whats what.
And finally, heavychevy whats your gamertag?
#176
03-04-2008, 06:04 PM
Wow, I was waiting to finally capture one of these in the wild.
"Look kids, its the elusive Porsche-snob. Not just restricted to your daddy's home state of New York and your mum's youth residence of Germany, this one is all the way out here in Georgia. Proof they can survive and reproduce outside of area's where over-priced fish eggs and martinis are common."
"If you look closely, you'll notice that his spelling is on par, par, mind you, with your dad's when he is drunk. His language also closely resembles that of a pre-teen on Call of Duty 4, and his boasting (about his car, no less) is strikingly similar to that of anyone who has ever seen The Fast and the Furious more than once and thought it was good cinema. Its with that that we can conclude his intelligence is on par with that of your average 10th grader, or, as you know, me, when I'm drunk. But also notice the lack of women, or style. Some Porsche snobs have these, but most just post pictures of women leaning over a Porsche on web forums. And notice the incredible flexibility of his spine."
"This is how you separate your daddy from the Porsche Snob. One, the Porsche snob, can fit his head all the way up his ***, and do it with minimal repercussions on society: no one, after all, listens to a Porsche snob, or can't, because his head is all the way up his ***. The other, myself, has a much stiffer backbone, and doesn't resort calling everyone's friends a "noob" or "newb" or "newblet" when his statements are challenged. Also, I tend to have many more friends, and not just due to being drunk. That may help, but even so, notice, yes here it is! Look kids, Porsche Snob vomit. The Porsche snob cannot hold his alcohol: this is due to his lack of British or Irish ancestry."
"Look kids, its the elusive Porsche-snob. Not just restricted to your daddy's home state of New York and your mum's youth residence of Germany, this one is all the way out here in Georgia. Proof they can survive and reproduce outside of area's where over-priced fish eggs and martinis are common."
"If you look closely, you'll notice that his spelling is on par, par, mind you, with your dad's when he is drunk. His language also closely resembles that of a pre-teen on Call of Duty 4, and his boasting (about his car, no less) is strikingly similar to that of anyone who has ever seen The Fast and the Furious more than once and thought it was good cinema. Its with that that we can conclude his intelligence is on par with that of your average 10th grader, or, as you know, me, when I'm drunk. But also notice the lack of women, or style. Some Porsche snobs have these, but most just post pictures of women leaning over a Porsche on web forums. And notice the incredible flexibility of his spine."
"This is how you separate your daddy from the Porsche Snob. One, the Porsche snob, can fit his head all the way up his ***, and do it with minimal repercussions on society: no one, after all, listens to a Porsche snob, or can't, because his head is all the way up his ***. The other, myself, has a much stiffer backbone, and doesn't resort calling everyone's friends a "noob" or "newb" or "newblet" when his statements are challenged. Also, I tend to have many more friends, and not just due to being drunk. That may help, but even so, notice, yes here it is! Look kids, Porsche Snob vomit. The Porsche snob cannot hold his alcohol: this is due to his lack of British or Irish ancestry."
#177
03-04-2008, 06:32 PM
"Now kids, lets take some time to learn the redeeming qualities of the Porsche-snob......."
Seriously though, weight and power are only two of the metrics by which you can measure a car. The M3 has proven a grand car (still not anything someone should buy, but a grand car). There are many, many more by which you can measure.
BTW, my buddy with the GT3 and M3 is selling both, I know I'm not supposed to advertise but he wants to let everyone know the M3 only has 3300 miles on it and he is selling it for $49,000 firm. The GT3 you can make an offer on but don't expect to pick it up cheap. I think he may of said he sold it though, he just left so I'll send him a message and see whats what.
And finally, heavychevy whats your gamertag?
Seriously though, weight and power are only two of the metrics by which you can measure a car. The M3 has proven a grand car (still not anything someone should buy, but a grand car). There are many, many more by which you can measure.
BTW, my buddy with the GT3 and M3 is selling both, I know I'm not supposed to advertise but he wants to let everyone know the M3 only has 3300 miles on it and he is selling it for $49,000 firm. The GT3 you can make an offer on but don't expect to pick it up cheap. I think he may of said he sold it though, he just left so I'll send him a message and see whats what.
And finally, heavychevy whats your gamertag?
Oh, even better, so you have been talking about an E46 M3 and not even the E92 or E90 M3's being able to beat a GT3.
Nice.
#178
03-04-2008, 06:39 PM
Sucked back into the Drama. and yes yours was one of the posts referred to. Though eloquently worded it was immature in substance.
Unsubscribed again, but will be back when the GT-R's are here.
Unsubscribed again, but will be back when the GT-R's are here.
#179
03-04-2008, 07:05 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: corpus christi, texas
Age: 51
Posts: 808
Rep Power: 50 
That was 10 minutes I will never get back. This thread went south fast. Sort of expected when some guys are hiding behind a computer though.
#180
03-04-2008, 09:58 PM
I will admit I am a better driver than my friend and I was at the helm of the M3, still, if the GT3 was so much better, I wouldn't of been a mile ahead of him by the end of it.
As for my not being here that long, and lacking posts, its true, I'm fairly new. Don't tell me though we've added an experience curve to forumite qualification? Hell, that goes against everything a web forum is for..... I feel so dated.......
I recognize the need to keep the plebeian masses out of 6speed (there is no way in hell I'd want the guys from 4chan or slashdot on here), but really, heavychevy flat out called me a liar and called me out here. What am I supposed to do, "yes master, you have more posts so hence you are unequivocally right?" Furthermore he pretty much spat in the face of several others who don't question that a GT-R could match a 911 Turbo as well.
I apologize to anyone who is offended by the idea of a newcomer throwing down with an oldie. But I don't apologize to heavychevy. Still, this could turn into one of those awkward relationships where we become best buddies with one arguementative point in between us, its depends on how well COD4 goes. HC I'll send you a friend request as soon as my Xbox 360 comes back from repairs.
stupid red rings.... grrr.... if i wasn't such a cheapskate.....
Last edited by Scryer_360; 03-04-2008 at 10:00 PM.