R8 vs M3 vs 911 Turbo vs "Other" car
#197
03-06-2008, 12:44 AM
Heavy, I'm an obvious Porsche guy as you can tell from my sig, but here's how I see things...
I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of Porsche Turbo owners cannot drive their cars anywhere near as well as you. So you (and most of the people that are regular posters on 6speed) represent the minority.
For the sake of argument, even if the 997TT were faster than a GT-R in the right hands, if the GT-R were quicker or even only as quick as the TT in the average driver's hands, then it would be a huge kudo to Nissan.
This actually makes me think of what would be a really interesting test (not original, as I've seen something similar done with the Cayman and 911 before, but anyway...)
have a highly qualified professional racing driver that knows 911's intimately, take both the TT and the GT-R on a timed lap. hell, throw in a GT3 in there for good measure.
now do the same thing with an average joe-- or at least the 40-something male with over $XXX in annual income that represents the typical Porsche Turbo buyer. Put him in a TT, GT3 and GT-R for timed laps.
It would be very interesting to see what the results would be.
My guess is: the average driver would be noticeably faster in the GT-R than in either of the 911's.
While the cost of this for the GT-R is that it is the less satisfying and exciting driver's car at the margin, I think that also means that Nissan achieved what they set out to do (i.e., making Porsche 911 Turbo performance accessible at a lower price).
Oh, while we're on the topic of performance for a good price, for sh*ts and giggles, let's do the same exact tests with a Z06 or new Viper. Joe Average would probably be slowest in both those cars compared to the TT/GT-R too... (if he didn't have a monumental car-gravel-trap interface first
)
For the sake of argument, even if the 997TT were faster than a GT-R in the right hands, if the GT-R were quicker or even only as quick as the TT in the average driver's hands, then it would be a huge kudo to Nissan.
have a highly qualified professional racing driver that knows 911's intimately, take both the TT and the GT-R on a timed lap. hell, throw in a GT3 in there for good measure.
now do the same thing with an average joe-- or at least the 40-something male with over $XXX in annual income that represents the typical Porsche Turbo buyer. Put him in a TT, GT3 and GT-R for timed laps.
It would be very interesting to see what the results would be.
My guess is: the average driver would be noticeably faster in the GT-R than in either of the 911's.
While the cost of this for the GT-R is that it is the less satisfying and exciting driver's car at the margin, I think that also means that Nissan achieved what they set out to do (i.e., making Porsche 911 Turbo performance accessible at a lower price).
Oh, while we're on the topic of performance for a good price, for sh*ts and giggles, let's do the same exact tests with a Z06 or new Viper. Joe Average would probably be slowest in both those cars compared to the TT/GT-R too... (if he didn't have a monumental car-gravel-trap interface first
)
#198
03-06-2008, 01:04 AM
and my point:
neither can most porsche owners so whats your point
second im not bashing porsches. I love porsche but when the comments are dumb excuses trying to find ways not to give nissan credit for their achievement with the GT-R is what im commenting to.
i dont understand why the porsche fanboys that are hating and not all are but why cant they just welcome the competiton and look to porsche to answer back instead of flat out hating and making up excuses for the the 911 turbo and GT3 keep coming up short
it only shows their insecurity. and if they want to say they arent insecure in their purchase then why not congradulate and welcome. instead of ones like heavychevy. who has an excuse for everything thats come out so far in regards to the GT-R and has yet to come.
everything is a conspiracy to him, none of the drives know how to drive the porsches properly etc etc. its just ridiculous excuse after excuse he comes with
neither can most porsche owners so whats your point
second im not bashing porsches. I love porsche but when the comments are dumb excuses trying to find ways not to give nissan credit for their achievement with the GT-R is what im commenting to.
i dont understand why the porsche fanboys that are hating and not all are but why cant they just welcome the competiton and look to porsche to answer back instead of flat out hating and making up excuses for the the 911 turbo and GT3 keep coming up short
it only shows their insecurity. and if they want to say they arent insecure in their purchase then why not congradulate and welcome. instead of ones like heavychevy. who has an excuse for everything thats come out so far in regards to the GT-R and has yet to come.
everything is a conspiracy to him, none of the drives know how to drive the porsches properly etc etc. its just ridiculous excuse after excuse he comes with
Because myself and countless others know how to drive a Porsche properly, and that hasnt been demonstrated in any case, I should resort to a magazine telling me what car is better than what?
That's like watching TV sit-coms to learn how to raise your kids. A joke.
Sorry but real driving enthusiasts have a higher standard for testing than throw some cars on the track in the freezing cold, do one lap and call it a day, or show a video of poor driving and following no lines in one car or drifting, and following lines in the other, and have the properly driven car considered as a faster car.
OF COURSE IT IS IF YOU DRIVE IT RIGHT DUMMY.
Because your standards are limited with your knowledge and experience of motorsport, as are many people, even here, doesnt mean there arent higher levels. If you beleive everything you read in the media, you're a sucker anyways, as there is more falsifications and half truths there than anywhere.
#199
03-06-2008, 01:23 AM
Heavy, I'm an obvious Porsche guy as you can tell from my sig, but here's how I see things...
I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of Porsche Turbo owners cannot drive their cars anywhere near as well as you. So you (and most of the people that are regular posters on 6speed) represent the minority.
You'd be surprised at how many people attend regular DE's and can drive very well, visit some of your local DE's and you'll see LOTS of people driving Porsches better than we've seen from the magazines, and not even in the advanced groups. And these are bone stock cars.
I would think a Magazine should at least be able to replicate and average driver at a DE to call themselves comparing something, horrendous driving that has been shown thus far, falls far short.
And like I said, I could hand pick several guys at PCA DE's around the country to go over there and waist the times those magazines were doing. And the PCA events are laid back in terms of people trying to go fast.
Hence my passion about this nonsense.
For the sake of argument, even if the 997TT were faster than a GT-R in the right hands, if the GT-R were quicker or even only as quick as the TT in the average driver's hands, then it would be a huge kudo to Nissan.
I agree, and have never said differently.
This actually makes me think of what would be a really interesting test (not original, as I've seen something similar done with the Cayman and 911 before, but anyway...)
have a highly qualified professional racing driver that knows 911's intimately, take both the TT and the GT-R on a timed lap. hell, throw in a GT3 in there for good measure.
now do the same thing with an average joe-- or at least the 40-something male with over $XXX in annual income that represents the typical Porsche Turbo buyer. Put him in a TT, GT3 and GT-R for timed laps.
It would be very interesting to see what the results would be.
My guess is: the average driver would be noticeably faster in the GT-R than in either of the 911's.
Ok fine, I have no problem with that, but the average driver doesnt even go to the track. Less than 5% of sports car drivers go to the track, so to put any guy out there that has never been there before is irrelevant.
Trying to guess which car a mid level HPDE student would go faster in is wild at best, and a waist of time, because there is no way to tell, until the same average driver has driven both cars.
While the cost of this for the GT-R is that it is the less satisfying and exciting driver's car at the margin, I think that also means that Nissan achieved what they set out to do (i.e., making Porsche 911 Turbo performance accessible at a lower price).
I agree, they have achieved that goal, without question.
Oh, while we're on the topic of performance for a good price, for sh*ts and giggles, let's do the same exact tests with a Z06 or new Viper. Joe Average would probably be slowest in both those cars compared to the TT/GT-R too... (if he didn't have a monumental car-gravel-trap interface first )
I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of Porsche Turbo owners cannot drive their cars anywhere near as well as you. So you (and most of the people that are regular posters on 6speed) represent the minority.
You'd be surprised at how many people attend regular DE's and can drive very well, visit some of your local DE's and you'll see LOTS of people driving Porsches better than we've seen from the magazines, and not even in the advanced groups. And these are bone stock cars.
I would think a Magazine should at least be able to replicate and average driver at a DE to call themselves comparing something, horrendous driving that has been shown thus far, falls far short.
And like I said, I could hand pick several guys at PCA DE's around the country to go over there and waist the times those magazines were doing. And the PCA events are laid back in terms of people trying to go fast.
Hence my passion about this nonsense.
For the sake of argument, even if the 997TT were faster than a GT-R in the right hands, if the GT-R were quicker or even only as quick as the TT in the average driver's hands, then it would be a huge kudo to Nissan.
I agree, and have never said differently.
This actually makes me think of what would be a really interesting test (not original, as I've seen something similar done with the Cayman and 911 before, but anyway...)
have a highly qualified professional racing driver that knows 911's intimately, take both the TT and the GT-R on a timed lap. hell, throw in a GT3 in there for good measure.
now do the same thing with an average joe-- or at least the 40-something male with over $XXX in annual income that represents the typical Porsche Turbo buyer. Put him in a TT, GT3 and GT-R for timed laps.
It would be very interesting to see what the results would be.
My guess is: the average driver would be noticeably faster in the GT-R than in either of the 911's.
Ok fine, I have no problem with that, but the average driver doesnt even go to the track. Less than 5% of sports car drivers go to the track, so to put any guy out there that has never been there before is irrelevant.
Trying to guess which car a mid level HPDE student would go faster in is wild at best, and a waist of time, because there is no way to tell, until the same average driver has driven both cars.
While the cost of this for the GT-R is that it is the less satisfying and exciting driver's car at the margin, I think that also means that Nissan achieved what they set out to do (i.e., making Porsche 911 Turbo performance accessible at a lower price).
I agree, they have achieved that goal, without question.
Oh, while we're on the topic of performance for a good price, for sh*ts and giggles, let's do the same exact tests with a Z06 or new Viper. Joe Average would probably be slowest in both those cars compared to the TT/GT-R too... (if he didn't have a monumental car-gravel-trap interface first
)A legitimately faster car doesnt need the same driver intentionally sucking in the other car to win. And Porsches are not THAT difficult to drive and follow a line around a track without sliding and drifting. This is my only point.
The GT-R is definitely a contender, but it's place in the pecking order line is being highly exhaggerated.
#200
03-06-2008, 09:07 AM
For starters a stock TT is NOT a track car. You need to compare it to Porsche with a "GT" in front of it. Porsche has its reasons and a specific "market" that this car was designed for. NOW, thats not to say that a TT cannot become a track car with a few rather simple mods MAINLY with its suspension. The TT has 2 things against it at the track: its suspension and its weight. The GT-R MIGHT not take on a TT that has been slightly modified (suspension wise) from factory specs. Now if mods don't count (and they are not supposed to in these comparisons) then it would take a professional Porsche race car driver to tackle the GT-R. At least thats what I have seen so far. So what? I wouldn't dream of driving anything else. Lastly, to Porsche, this is your wake up call. its time to stop the "only give them a little bit at a time just to keep up" and put something out that really "STICKS" it to the competition (like they used to years ago). Marketing factors play a huge role here and for as long as I have known Porsche (and read most of the literature written about the company), that has always been their philosophy (especially in the last 10 years).
Last edited by gradyex; 03-06-2008 at 09:24 AM.
#201
03-06-2008, 10:18 AM
For starters a stock TT is NOT a track car. You need to compare it to Porsche with a "GT" in front of it. Porsche has its reasons and a specific "market" that this car was designed for. NOW, thats not to say that a TT cannot become a track car with a few rather simple mods MAINLY with its suspension. The TT has 2 things against it at the track: its suspension and its weight. The GT-R MIGHT not take on a TT that has been slightly modified (suspension wise) from factory specs. Now if mods don't count (and they are not supposed to in these comparisons) then it would take a professional Porsche race car driver to tackle the GT-R. At least thats what I have seen so far. So what? I wouldn't dream of driving anything else. Lastly, to Porsche, this is your wake up call. its time to stop the "only give them a little bit at a time just to keep up" and put something out that really "STICKS" it to the competition (like they used to years ago). Marketing factors play a huge role here and for as long as I have known Porsche (and read most of the literature written about the company), that has always been their philosophy (especially in the last 10 years).
good write up
Last edited by 240ka; 03-06-2008 at 11:49 AM.
#202
03-06-2008, 10:18 AM
You all take this stuff way too seriously. Is your car fun to drive?? Mine is. I'm quite sure all of the ones mentioned here are all fun to drive. Which one is the most fun?? whatever one I'm driving at the time. What the hell??
besides if the Turbos are so superior, why aren't they competitive in any pro race series?? Thay get slammed in world challenge and every other series. Hell, my cayman runs faster lap times at many tracks than my Turbo could ever hope to. And dare I say it...its more fun too. GASP!! go figure....
go on, say it...you know you want to. I'll say it for you.... But its still a cayman, and not a Turbo. I know... I don't care. Just like most GTR owners don't.
besides if the Turbos are so superior, why aren't they competitive in any pro race series?? Thay get slammed in world challenge and every other series. Hell, my cayman runs faster lap times at many tracks than my Turbo could ever hope to. And dare I say it...its more fun too. GASP!! go figure....
go on, say it...you know you want to. I'll say it for you.... But its still a cayman, and not a Turbo. I know... I don't care. Just like most GTR owners don't.
agree with everything you wrote
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