Here's the bottom line: A MAF less stand alone will give you a 50% better gas mileage, minimum of 75 more hp with 33% less boost, and allows you to run 2bar of boost on 87 octane....

 

My guys tell me that on a Porsche it will do about 50 more HP.... and its done actually on Bobby's red 993.... but he still runs C16...
with that said I would still like my car without a MAF... just like my EVO

 

Ditto! I'd love to go old-school and be able to hook up a VPC! Hmmmmm...

 

ahhh VPC the good ol days i remember on my first eclipse that made a huuuge difference.

 

I can't believe what I'm reading. Those of you trying to argue that the stock ecu will perform better than a standalone are simply not familiar with standalones. The reason standalones were abandoned by Porsche tuners thus far was because the effort to get them to work well was too great for the perceived benefit. If someone figures it out then there will be another option for tuning our cars. Imagine adjusting any parameter of your engine management with a simple windows based program. Want more fuel? Click on an icon. Want to pull some timing? Same thing. You can have your tuner in the passenger seat making realtime adjustments while you are driving in real world conditions, not in artificial world conditions such as on a dyno. Or datalog your drive and later analyze everything on easy to visualize graphs and make any adjustments accordingly.
Yes, these things can be done with the stock ecu but only if you understand the Bosch code. Ain't too many guys around that can do that. Any idiot can click a windows icon, and this is where the danger lies. F-ing around with the fuel/ignition maps when you don't truly understand what you are doing will result in engine -go-boom.

 

My motor in my evo is at 47-50psi (840-900whp) and seen 50 passes between dyno, street and track and there is nothing going under the knife around here.. supra is no different if built properly.. You cant go off the he said, she said, todd said.. In my opinion a motor like a 3.6L which is 20% larger than a supra should handle almost anything you throw at it basically.. most of it comes down to tuning whether it will live or die.. boost levels, HP etc dont mean much. Its how you set the motor up to make the power.

 

we do exactly that all day long with 034 standalone mgmt on our Vw's.. One drives the other tunes on the fly.. alot of our cars never see the dyno til its fully tuned on the street not vice versa.. The dyno if it has eddy current is a great tool but street tunes puts true load on the car..

as far as windows based ecu's ill pass..

 

I'm sure with standalone, you'll get more hp but how much more than 1000whp can the block physically handle?

 

You have loaded comment... some of which I agree... and some I don't disagree LOL

Sure a stand alone for us end users would be better... but it does not prove that it is better since not one actually exists to date with miles on it.
I have one on my evo and its great... but trying to do it on a P car is another world... maybe that is why its 2008- 8 years after the first 996TT rolled off the truck and still no stand alone... hhmmm I wonder why...
As far as ur argument that the standalone is awesome because you can have the tuner in the passenger seat tuning on a laptop( I do it all the time).. to that I agree.... HOWEVER, my Porsche tuner does the same thing in REAL world with the Bosch ECU. That is what a Bosch Emulator is is for... unfortunately not all tuners if any have it... thus they do not do it in real time...like on a stand alone.
I am going to say it again... If my tuner can put down 900 rwhp on a 996TT and on a 993 TT using a stock ECU.... and mind you we still do not know the limit then why are we arguing against it? what If we see a 1100 rwhp P car out a shop using a stock ECU? will that be enough to prove my point? 1300 rwhp? etc...
Todd knighton said that the maf will max at 900 rwhp so then you may have to get a different one... but he never stated that the ECU will limit him from doing anything....
BTW, I am all for the stand alone... I wish I had one...
markski

 

My MAF is located on the high pressure side, thus my turbos basically do the same thing that you are refering to in your text.
Cheers
Robert

 

Can the stock ECU datalog and overlay over video in real time using GPS ? Can you build 32 lbs of boost in under a second without moving a foot ? How about having your turn signals turn on under boost, having nitrous spray from 2100rpm - 3600rpm and ramping the boost up shortly after? All of these aren't within the realm of a standalone (pending the number of useable outputs).

At the end of the day we're all driving cars with "reflashes" that are essentially the same tune-up modified slightly for our setup. It took plenty of time to go from stock to these reflashes, but as soon as it's done they are sent to many different cars with only subtle differences, the same can be said with a standalone. Each will likely come with a base map that is custom tailored to ones setup.

The standalone can be set to run the engine quite easily, it's making everything else work that's a bit tricky. In this case it's likely a matter of getting the engine parameters setup and then working out the bugs on the inside 1 by 1. There are plenty of things you could choose to use or not to use pending the standalone and that will determine wether a custom harness from Motec is needed (easiest solution) or a jumper harness. In this case they likely bi-passed both together and had the ECU manufacture wire the board to the proper plug similar to how AEM adapted the GEMs ecu setup and released it for many different cars. To find a limit, you usually must exceed it, this is the first step to that goal, and after that it will just be a matter of improving parts as you they break.

Like anything it's going to take development, I can't tell you how many engines have been blown, parts being made to make the 2JZ hold what it does. Most of the engine parts being used now didn't exist 4 years ago and those that did have likely been improved since, the result is the ability to purchase off the shelf parts. The Porsche offers a nice start as you already have great flowing cylinder heads available from the factory through the Cup car programs, and the rest is all readily available or adaptable.

 

Mark- Just to be clear, I didn't say one was better than another. Better is a highly subjective word. It all boils down to the tuner knowing their stuff. Michaelangelo made nicer statues with simple chisels than the local county fair ice sculpturers with high-tech chainsaws.

Mike@usp- I agree; the Windows based software was just an example. Also agree about road tuning. So many folks focus on dyno tuning which is certainly worthwhile but unless you only drive your car on a dyno, it is missing a lot of fine tuning.

 

agreed...

no anti-lag, nitrous control, two step, gear based boost control amongst others..

 

Not exactly. Your MAF still sits in the middle of the airstream, and the size of the intake is limited by what MAF you're using.

 

I only used 2 step 3 times in my life when I when to the track. Not sure you know but I broke 4 sets of axles( on the porsche) without any anti lag or 2 step... with that said I doubt the car would handle 20 psi at the start... been there tried it... and if the axles hold up then its the tranny that's next. My car broke into 1.4s 60ft. without any ECU help... a 1.45 actually. no 2 step, no NOS, with big .82 A/Rs on a set of gt35rs.. running 21 psi max on drag radials....
I think ur point is that its better to have a stand alone when tracking 1/4 or racing... sure I would not agree with you more. I would go as far as saying that if someone actually comes up with one... a working fully functional one- it will open up the market the way AEM opened it to the Supra's, Evo's, etc.
I will bet my money that we will be still waiting 2 years from now for a stand alone that actually does all you mentioned and more... but that's just my opinion.
I keep harping on the fact that its 2008 and still no go... Thus I will laugh my *** off is someone from the DSM world actually makes one. With that said, after discussing this with my tuner... he said its a real uphill battle... especially the Motec( he tried it). Motec does not like vario cams....
BTW, my friend has a 900 rwhp P car with 2 step running a stock ECU.
markski