Been really busy..not to mention sick for the last two weeks..when things warm up I'll take a ride...gonna try to do some of the runs..

Keep in touch!

 

Ah my head.my eyes they burn

in all honesty take the cars for what they are.

Z06 is a monster, but can it be driven on normal roads by normal people?
Is it a DD?

911 is also great, great brand name, easy to use, but pricey & costly to maintain some times.

GTR the J underdog that has come out guns blazing and has taken the main selling point of the Z (bang for buck) and with relative ease of using its powers due to AWD. Have you seen the gizmos on that car that display is the is!!

Looks is an other matter to look into, as is safety.

To the people that are quoting times done by various cars. Are these all done on the same track by same drivers in same weather (da etc). Same applies to dyno, same tires?

A car does not perform the same on different environments (weather/track). IT also performs differently given the food you give it ( fuel!!)

SO take it for what it is and try to form an idea on whats best for you .
also all of you should be glad as you have more to pick from now rather then just be corned in the market

P.s Hi all first post, benz owner here and love cars in general. after the heated debit and 10 pages of reading i felt Compelled to reply at least just for the sake of the pain i felt x). Drive save every one & some great looking rides you guys got

 

Jeez, my eyes are smokin' too! This is my first post also. Before I comment I should tell you something about myself. I definitely wear rose colored glasses made in Stuttgart, I will not deny that. I have been a Porsche fanatic since I went to my first Daytona 24 hour endurance race way back in 1968 when I was twelve years old. That was the year the 907's lined up three abreast to cross the finish line, reflecting their overall finishing places. Since that time, I have owned four Porsches, my current ride being a Cayman S I bought new in 2006. I consider myself very lucky to have seen in person 907's, 908's, 917's, the 917/30, 962's, 935's and more recently the RS Spyder turn wheels in anger at various racetracks around the US. I have been to many, many races and cheered Porsche on to many victories. I have helplessly watched Porsche on the brink of extinction at least twice, and now here they are, controlling VW. I am a fan, to say the least. Very regretfully, I have no experience racing Porsches (although that was a fantasy of mine as an adolescent, to race them professionally) but I have a long history (over forty years) of watching their progress and driving their road cars. Based on my experience, I would like to say to my fellow Porschefiles who feel compelled to defend Porsche or make excuses for them, DON'T BOTHER! They don't need it, and they don't want it! It reminds me of little league parents getting into fights at softball games, trying to solve their kids' problems. Their children are fully capable of handling their problems themselves. Yes, I guess I have been a Porsche excuse maker in the past, but I am quiting right here and now!

There have been so many cars to come along that were to dethrone Porsche, and let me tell you, Porsche is still around and they are thriving like no other sports car manufacturer can. Many of us are behaving as if Nissan has come along and broad-sided Porsche with a technological tour de force that they never saw coming. Others are now speaking as if Porsche is running scared for their life, struggling to find a way to stay in the game. Let me tell you, they have been in the game since day one, and they know how to play it better than anyone. The hype surrounding the Nissan is much ado about nothing in my opinion. It is nothing new to Porsche and the GT-R borrows from so many who have gone before, Porsche certainly being one of those manufacturer's others have borrowed from most. Case in point. I happened to read my August 2006 issue of "Car" magazine today, and this issue happened to have a feature about supercars past and present (present meaning August 2006) that seems so relevant to the three car comparison we are discussing now. Interestingly, there was nothing in the mag about the GT-R because it was still on the horizon more or less at that time. In this issue there was an article by a long time contributor to the mag, Gavin Green. He was discussing a super car that was 19 years old at the time, the Porsche 959. Boy, that was a car! Green was reviewing an article he had written about that car 19 years earlier for the mag, and had many praises for the car, and one "complaint" that is one people have about the current GT-R, and I think it tells us something about the differences in the philosophies governing the two cars. I'll get to that in a minute. Green mentioned that the 959 could sprint from 0-62 mph in 3.7 seconds, and reach a top speed of 197 mph. That is a performance very similar to the straight-line skills of the current three cars we are discussing, but that was 21 years ago! Green went on to say that the 959 was the car that begat all the electronically controlled, engineering-rich supercars of today (2006). He explained that it showcased variably split computer controlled 4X4 and computer-controlled damping stiffness. However, he went on to say that although the 959 was years ahead of everything else on the road at the time, it had a drawback, which was that it was no where near as fun to drive as an everyday 911, because all that new-fangled electro-trickery took away the fun of driving a beast that was famous for challenging good drivers and intimidating poor ones. Green added that all those computer controls ensured big speed with no fuss or muss, and made the car marvelously efficient and enormously fast, but left the car perhaps just a touch "soulless", with more engineering showcase than driver's delight. His word "soulless" seems prophetic, because I believe that is just the word others have used to describe the GT-R with all it's electronic gizmos that do so much of the driving for you. Green summed it all up by saying that the 959, like the enormously powerful, capable and fast super cars of today (2006) that are it's progeny, often forgets to include the "bloke" behind the wheel. It certainly isn't that Porsche can't produce a car like the GT-R. Heck, they did it 21 years ago. I think the point is, Porsche chose long ago not to, because people who purchase Porsches are true enthusiasts who prefer to try to tame the beast themselves, and drive like their heros, Hurley Haywood and Walter Rohl, to name a few. Very much like that Audi commercial that tells us Audi builds cars for people who prefer to park the car themselves. Porsche is not in trouble, and now with the might of Europe's largest automobile factory behind them, who knows what is next. This is a very exciting time at Porsche. No need to worry about them. By the way, the Bugatti Veyron is the brainchild of Ferdinand Piech, grandson of Ferdinand Porsche and one time head of VW. Now that car is a technological tour de force!

Wow, sorry to be so long-winded. Now that I got that out, I will try not to comment anymore about the new Nissan GT-R versus Porsche, et. al., anytime in the near future (I do a lot of posting at the Cayman Club web site). The truth will out, independent of me and anyone else.

 

Jeez, my eyes are smokin' too! This is my first post also. Before I comment I should tell you something about myself. I definitely wear rose colored glasses made in Stuttgart, I will not deny that. I have been a Porsche fanatic since I went to my first Daytona 24 hour endurance race way back in 1968 when I was twelve years old. That was the year the 907's lined up three abreast to cross the finish line, reflecting their overall finishing places. Since that time, I have owned four Porsches, my current ride being a Cayman S I bought new in 2006. I consider myself very lucky to have seen in person 907's, 908's, 917's, the 917/30, 962's, 935's and more recently the RS Spyder turn wheels in anger at various racetracks around the US. I have been to many, many races and cheered Porsche on to many victories. I have helplessly watched Porsche on the brink of extinction at least twice, and now here they are, controlling VW. I am a fan, to say the least. Very regretfully, I have no experience racing Porsches (although that was a fantasy of mine as an adolescent, to race them professionally) but I have a long history (over forty years) of watching their progress and driving their road cars. Based on my experience, I would like to say to my fellow Porschefiles who feel compelled to defend Porsche or make excuses for them, DON'T BOTHER! They don't need it, and they don't want it! It reminds me of little league parents getting into fights at softball games, trying to solve their kids' problems. Their children are fully capable of handling their problems themselves. Yes, I guess I have been a Porsche excuse maker in the past, but I am quiting right here and now!

There have been so many cars to come along that were to dethrone Porsche, and let me tell you, Porsche is still around and they are thriving like no other sports car manufacturer can. Many of us are behaving as if Nissan has come along and broad-sided Porsche with a technological tour de force that they never saw coming. Others are now speaking as if Porsche is running scared for their life, struggling to find a way to stay in the game. Let me tell you, they have been in the game since day one, and they know how to play it better than anyone. The hype surrounding the Nissan is much ado about nothing in my opinion. It is nothing new to Porsche and the GT-R borrows from so many who have gone before, Porsche certainly being one of those manufacturer's others have borrowed from most. Case in point. I happened to read my August 2006 issue of "Car" magazine today, and this issue happened to have a feature about supercars past and present (present meaning August 2006) that seems so relevant to the three car comparison we are discussing now. Interestingly, there was nothing in the mag about the GT-R because it was still on the horizon more or less at that time. In this issue there was an article by a long time contributor to the mag, Gavin Green. He was discussing a super car that was 19 years old at the time, the Porsche 959. Boy, that was a car! Green was reviewing an article he had written about that car 19 years earlier for the mag, and had many praises for the car, and one "complaint" that is one people have about the current GT-R, and I think it tells us something about the differences in the philosophies governing the two cars. I'll get to that in a minute. Green mentioned that the 959 could sprint from 0-62 mph in 3.7 seconds, and reach a top speed of 197 mph. That is a performance very similar to the straight-line skills of the current three cars we are discussing, but that was 21 years ago! Green went on to say that the 959 was the car that begat all the electronically controlled, engineering-rich supercars of today (2006). He explained that it showcased variably split computer controlled 4X4 and computer-controlled damping stiffness. However, he went on to say that although the 959 was years ahead of everything else on the road at the time, it had a drawback, which was that it was no where near as fun to drive as an everyday 911, because all that new-fangled electro-trickery took away the fun of driving a beast that was famous for challenging good drivers and intimidating poor ones. Green added that all those computer controls ensured big speed with no fuss or muss, and made the car marvelously efficient and enormously fast, but left the car perhaps just a touch "soulless", with more engineering showcase than driver's delight. His word "soulless" seems prophetic, because I believe that is just the word others have used to describe the GT-R with all it's electronic gizmos that do so much of the driving for you. Green summed it all up by saying that the 959, like the enormously powerful, capable and fast super cars of today (2006) that are it's progeny, often forgets to include the "bloke" behind the wheel. It certainly isn't that Porsche can't produce a car like the GT-R. Heck, they did it 21 years ago. I think the point is, Porsche chose long ago not to, because people who purchase Porsches are true enthusiasts who prefer to try to tame the beast themselves, and drive like their heros, Hurley Haywood and Walter Rohl, to name a few. Very much like that Audi commercial that tells us Audi builds cars for people who prefer to park the car themselves. Porsche is not in trouble, and now with the might of Europe's largest automobile factory behind them, who knows what is next. This is a very exciting time at Porsche. No need to worry about them. By the way, the Bugatti Veyron is the brainchild of Ferdinand Piech, grandson of Ferdinand Porsche and one time head of VW. Now that car is a technological tour de force!

Wow, sorry to be so long-winded. Now that I got that out, I will try not to comment anymore about the new Nissan GT-R versus Porsche, et. al., anytime in the near future (I do a lot of posting at the Cayman Club web site). The truth will out, independent of me and anyone else.

 

Wow. GTR is impressive.

 

dont hate, CONGRATULATE. Porsche has never felt pressure like this before espeically from company who doesnt wear a prestigious badge or a MORE prestigious badge than themselves. While past skylines have out performed 911's this GT-R answers and offers everything the Porsche offers plus more.

its all good for competition. POrsche will now have to get off of their high horse and stop "bird feeding": their customers. and as i mentioned before. now a response from Porsche is to answer back, not what they have always been before hand which is Revolutionary.

Nissan is now the Revolutionary. Which puts Nissan in the lead with the new benchmark. its going to be nice to see the GT-R go head up with the 998 911 TT

 

It's a race event where the car, crew, and everything is provided for you. All you do is show up on the race weekend at various race tracks and race. It's much cheaper then owning a racing teams. It's kind of like renting a team for a weekend. Very fun and challenging.

 

Actually your wrong Datsun (Nissan for you kids) did exactly the same thing in the 70's with the 240Z. USCCaymen definitely said it perfectly.

 

I got lost in translation I suppose as I know people do that, but never heard of an event titled as such.

 

I understand points such as this and understand that the 959's Porsche-Steuer Kupplung (PSK) was a phenomenal achievement now 21 years ago in 1987.

Whilst I agree that harder-to-drive cars are often more involving, surely the same argument could be made about an F-86 Sabre and an F-22 Raptor. The latter of which would fall straight out of the sky like a rock were it not for the fly-by-wire system. The same could also be said when comparing Fangio's F1 car to Schumacher's last F1 Ferrari. And again when comparing an early Harrier to an AV-8B or an F-35. The comparison also fits when comparing old helicopters to newer ones. I don't see that this is in anyway a step backward. I also can't see how the likes of the PSM system on modern Porsches and, in particular, the GT2 driver aids, fit with your argument.

So I disagree, I don't think Porsche and Nissan are aiming in different directions, it's just that one is doing the job cheaper and more efficiently. In 1987 the 959 cost $225,000. 2 years later a similar AWD system, the ATTESA, was available on the R32 GTR in Japan at a price that was a whole order of magnitude less than the 959. A price that was competitive with the market and not only acceptable as a one off supercar, with a supercar price tag. Both manufacturers deserve credit.

With the advent of the 993, Porsche and Nissan diverged. Porsche opting for a less advanced AWD system but with more power and better build quality than the R32-R34 vehicles. However, we now see the GTR converging with the Porsche in terms of build quality and power. Will Porsche respond by updating their AWD system. I hope so. Maybe the next advance in sports cars will be to follow the instability of modern fighter jets and design cars with natural on-limit oversteer, counter-balanced with drive-by-wire electronics.

In short, I'd prefer an F-22 Raptor to an F-86 Sabre or a P-51 Mustang but I think you are mistaken in depicting Porsche as catering to the F-86-lovers of motoring. In the late '80s Porsche gave Nissan an idea. An idea is a very powerful thing. Maybe Nissan have now given Porsche an idea. Frankly I hope that in 5 years time we see a Neo-PSK AWD system, coupled with PDK and 500+bhp in a vehicle around the same weight as a 997TT. Nissan would then be forced to respond again.

 

I remember back around '85 when Chevrolet finally did away with the Stingray design and produced the first of the present day 'Vettes. Same hoopla, tons written about it in the mags, stellar performance, +1.00g cornering capability, Porsche is dead. There was a commercial which had several German "engineers" sitting around watching a video of the 'vette on a track, sweating, looking scared, wondering what to do now. Same stuff, different car. Ho hum. I remember a bright red 240Z, brand new at the Daytona International Speedway, around 1970. They were driving it all around the track showing it off. It was pretty. I heard Porsche was dead back then too. Same with the Audi R8. It's actually a very big compliment to Porsche that it is always them the folks go gunning for. Porsche isn't worried about this new boy wonder, either. They don't go gunning for anyone. They simply just keep evolving the brand.

 

You are off by a long shot.

#1 Porsche is one of the most repsonsive manufacturers in terms of what the people who drive their cars want ever. Hence the throwback era headlights after the onset of a more modern look in the 996. Porsche drivers have always wanted driver involvement, at least the large majority, and that's what Porsche has given, immensely driver rewarding cars. The Turbo used to be it but has slowly evolved into a bigger, more GT type of car over the years. Tiptronic was included for those who wanted the Porsche experience but didnt really care about driver involvement. You even see stick shifts in the likes of the mid range SUV. Porsche has certainly never wanted to design a car that drives itself and is "cars for dummies" so to speak. And never has there been any inclination that the've tried to be.

#2 Build quality has yet TBD. Build quality is something that comes with time, you cant declare equal build quality by looking at an interior and even if you did all I've seen is that the GT-R is filled with cheap plastics, and I bet if you took the two cars apart you'd see the detail in build quality. So even stll your statement is innacurate, not to mention the GT-R is a G35 interior with a bunch of buttons. Hardly the build quality you'll see on the interiror of a Porsche Turbo or GT3, you cannot compare the two. This is the same arguement the Z06 boys came up with, but after several failed engines, bad brakes, flying roofs etc, I doubt that is a real arguement any more. All the gadgetry is going to have some problems at some point, I doubt Nissan has the troubles GM would, but something will arise and the time has not been given to even consider the GT-R on the same level as a Porsche.


So in retrospect, Nissan have created a non driver involving, heavy GT car. It does fit in a Niche market for guys with Performance desires but not the budget to afford a family car and sports car, although the back seats arent much more useful than the TT's. But eating through 20in tires, constant maintenance demands, markups, and brakes is only going to end up putting people in the same range as the TT. And unfortunately you dont get a return on maintenance.

Not to mention for Porsche to be the smallest major auto manufacturer and have everyone trying to measure up to them is an accomplishment in and of itself. And while you can try and convince yourself otherwise. A GT-R is NOT a Porsche Turbo, and never will be.

 

I remember back around '85 when Chevrolet finally did away with the Stingray design and produced the first of the present day 'Vettes. Same hoopla, tons written about it in the mags, stellar performance, +1.00g cornering capability, Porsche is dead. There was a commercial which had several German "engineers" sitting around watching a video of the 'vette on a track, sweating, looking scared, wondering what to do now. Same stuff, different car. Ho hum. I remember a bright red 240Z, brand new at the Daytona International Speedway, around 1970. They were driving it all around the track showing it off. It was pretty. I heard Porsche was dead back then too. Same with the Audi R8. It's actually a very big compliment to Porsche that it is always them the folks go gunning for. Porsche isn't worried about this new boy wonder, either. They don't go gunning for anyone. They simply just keep evolving the brand.

 

HeavyChevy is correct. I have observed the Porsche culture for over 40 years, and we have always demanded cars that involve the driver. It is simple as that. I bought a Cayman S with manual. I would not want it any other way. I often switch off traction control (only when I am by myself ), because I want to see what I can do. Porsche has been working on a car with all the bells and whistle's, and it is called the Panamera. That is a car that the traditional Porsche fan does not like because it is not an enthusiast's car. But Porsche needs it just like they needed the Cayenne, which saved them and is why they are now so cash rich. The Panamera will have all the electronic gizmos that do the driving for you. It will probably be a better car with which to compare the GT-R.

Formula 1 is now a wonderful analogy. Last year they had state of the art traction control, this year they do not. Last year, so much of they driving was done by the car. This year it is not. And those professional drivers look sloppier because of it. At least that is what I read on another forum whose members follow F1. I do not. Not since the days of the Mclaren TAG-Porsches. The 997TT has what it needs to keep you out of trouble, but not much more. Mark Donahue did not need traction control to handle the 1200 hp 917/30 35 years ago. That is the kind of guy we Porsche buffs admire. The GT-R is an answer to a question Porsche fans are not concerned with. If you want to see what Porsche knows about traction control, etc., you will have to look to the RS Spyder.

 

Porsche isn't dead. I certainly hope not anyway. It's just that they have been invited to step up their game once again. This is the first time a GTR has been available to the US market non-import. Just as they stepped up their game to come from the 930 turbo to a 997TT.


HC - Your post in no way explains why Porsche have gone with driver aids on the new GT2. I don't doubt that Porsche cater for their customers. Any business would be foolish not to, but maybe your view of what the customers want is not representative. Just because a car helps the driver, it doesn't mean that it isn't involving, it just leaves the driver free to concentrate on the rest of the driving. Several GTR reviewers have backed up these sentiments. Does paddle-shift make F1 cars uninvolving? Does fly-by-wire make modern fighter jets uninvolving?

At present a GTR is not a Porsche Turbo, as it currently outperforms the Porsche Turbo, but maybe that will change.