Wow, good luck and please keep us updated. I don't know if I could handle such a situation as calmly as you.

 

yep, exactly what I would do. I don't really see the big deal in the replacement engine.

 

the car is NOT a Lemon, I don't know what makes you think it is. He has taken it back once and they have determined the motor is the problem. The poster is now not letting them replace it.


Personally, i'd much rather buy a car with 80K on it that had it's motor replaced at 40K then one that hadn't. Cars break and things get fixed. This is why every manufacturer offers a warranty. to the OP, I respect what you are trying to do, but with the route you are going I guarantee it'll be 6 months before you will see a true outcome. I would have definately replaced the motor and been driving in 2 weeks.


If anyone doesn't want to buy a car because the motor was replaced under warranty....they need to know more about cars and how things go wrong.

 

The reason I think the car is a lemon is that it is defined as such by the New Jersey LEMON LAW. Perhaps you did not click the link so I pasted the following from the New Jersey Division of Consumer Affairs website:
Is your vehicle a lemon?
A new motor vehicle is presumed to be a lemon if it has one or more defects that continue to exist after three attempts at repairs, OR after the vehicle has been out of service for a total of 20 cumulative calendar days [within the first two years of ownership or 18,000 miles].

The car will be out of service for more than 20 days and is new with only 180 miles so, by New Jersey statute, the car is a lemon. The owner can choose to work with Porsche or simply get all of his money back. It does not mean that Porsche is a bad car manufacturer or even that the car is a lemon in another state. But in New Jersey, the car is simply a lemon.

 

[quote]
I will not accept a replacement engine. In this (and other) forums we've replied to people curious about a car (any car) having a “dealer/manufacturer replaced engine” installed during warrantee. We all advise them to beware, be careful and be cautious, etc, as it’s a big red flag! It discounts the price significantly, and if it’s not disclosed upon sale, in some states you’re breaking the law because of its significance to the buyer. I am not taking a financial loss for inferior products.
Taking the last line of #1 a little further ... I will not take a loss for an inferior product. If any manufacturer (regardless of product) makes an inferior item, you are by law, entitled to all your money back, AND all monies spent in making things correct again (Fair Trade Act). As seen here, there are people who accept inferiority even if it cost them money (again, I’m not trying to insult your position or advice). I just can’t get my head around that concept. I don’t want to ‘make’ money on this mistake, but I’m certainly not going to take a loss. I wouldn’t care if this was a lawn mower, Porsche or Lear Jet ... I am not going to absorb the loss, nor pay for other peoples mistakes or inferiority. Ever!
I am aware that ‘some’ buyers will not take into consideration a replacement engine, but that certainly isn’t all of the “possible buyers”. Therefore, when time to sell, my “purchasing audience” is reduced. Once that happens it is only I who suffer from a reduced buying pool, hence the best price offer. Consider this ... if someone is looking for a ‘perfect car’, then certainly they’re going to “pay for a perfect car” ... and they’re willing to part with more money for that perfection. For the efforts I put into maintaining my cars, I’m certainly not going to lose top dollar do to a replacement engine, which reduces my buying audience. (NOTE: I sold my previous car for $8,400.00 more than any similar car offered anywhere ... to someone that wanted and bought a ‘perfect’ Porsche – this wouldn’t have happened with a replacement engine).
Porsche (as most companies) will do MUCH MORE than just replace the defective item for ‘some people’ and not ‘others’. They have an entire team who ‘over-compensate’ for when things go bad. Some people not only get new cars, but they’re financially compensated for the time they were without the vehicle they purchased. It’s getting to the right people that make those decisions that I need help with.
You will always get the most from those who feel you’re a threat – that can be disarmed with as little loss as possible. I don’t want to be ‘threatening’ – but I want to make my case BEFORE someone else decides how they ‘feel’ about my case. It’s easier to help someone make up their mind than it is to change their mind. I want to help PCNA in ffice:smarttags" />lace w:st="on">Atlanta</ST1lace>, make up their mind to do the right thing on an inferior product. There is a division in the headquarters who handles these issues, and that’s the department I want/need to get in touch with.
[quote]

Fairness is a fairy tale ideology taught to children by adults who know all too well what its like to have been screwed .You can cling to your innocence or deflect by calling me cynical OR you can do what FAIR for yourself .

The concepts you post are indeed very sound minded BUT it won't be your reality .

I agree with you --don't accept the new engine . I agree with your reasoning.
I agree that Porsche should take back the car and hand you a new one .
That ain't going to happen .

By the time you reach a compromise you will earn any money and stress yoiu can save in aggravation. If you think some high Porsche official cares , he would have already replaced your car . They would have called you and asked for you to forgive their flaws and make things right . Thry didn't and you basically are chasing them with the hopes that someone will listen and do something which you deem honorable. Something which the fair trade act deems honorable .

It's not going to happen . I just hope you make peace with yourself and cope with the enormous disappintment for enough time to logically map the swift solution.

My solution - Approx 20K plus your car into a new one .

Your emotional reasoning might cloud your thoughts --but in time I speculate that you will reexamine your position .

 

I would fight for a new car. This is Porsche we're talking about, not Nissan (hehe, sorry--had to throw that in there given all the GTR posts )

How could you trust a dealer's tech to install a new engine when they can't even fill it with the right amount of oil during an oil change?

 

I don't blame you for not being willing to take a loss. I'd fight for a full buy-back but I would be VERY surprised if there was any way that they would do that and then make sure you got a new one just like it on any sort of an expedient time line...

I'd struggle with the situation but the way I see it you have a couple of options...

1) Engine replacement + extended warranty... (not acceptable to you it appears)
2) Fight for full buyback... wait 6 months for new car.
3) Lose money in one form or another but potentially save time/stress (also not acceptable)

This sucks because whether its time, stress, or money you are getting screwed somehow.

 

SaintlySins,

So much of what you said in post #29 reflects my father's thoughts, feelings and regrets as well as my own before his recent passing. I fully understand how you feel about your car. I am several years behind you in the purchase of your dream, and I hope to learn from your experience.

Best wishes to you. I sincerely hope things work out the way you want them to!

 

I doubt you are going to get another car nor do I think this situation warrants it. You are left with some tough choices and my advice would be to take the brand new motor and drive the wheels off that bad boy. If you choose to go toe to toe with PNA get ready to spend some $$. They are well represented and will wear you down financially. Remember these words....."the only people that win in litigation are the lawyers".

Brett, Esq.

 

Good luck. I hope this thread ends with a positive note.

Litigation can only bring headache, lost opportunity costs, limitless fees, etc. Even if you are right and win, will it be worth your time?

 

This gentleman seems to have his mind made up, but I'll offer my opinion.

I would recommend the 'new motor' route (only a new motor is acceptable for a car this new) because:

1) This is a special, ordered car. It took time and effort to get. The new motor can be here and installed within a week or two. Do you really want to wait 3 - 4 months (or longer) for a replacement? Not to mention, the replacement car could come in with the wrong spec; e.g., interior color, stitching color or something else incorrect. It's rare, but it's happened before.. now there's a new problem.

2) With regards to resale.. I believe he said he would keep this car for a while, what will it matter then, a few bucks? The car got a new replacement motor, not a rebuild, how much of a difference will that make then? Is it worth going through the 'replacement car' aggravation today? Also, it's unlikely the Turbo will be a valuable collectible in the future, so, in that respect, is the replacement motor really a concern?

3) Life's too short. Enjoy driving the car as soon as possible and for as long as possible, who knows what the future brings.

Good luck whatever you do.

 

Man there is all kinds of speculation in here and most of it is absurd. I have been down this road and can pretty well tell you how this will work. You think engine replacement is a big deal. It is not. The car will not receive any dimunition in value because of an engine replacement so ease up on the hyperbole on that. A Porsche rep MIGHT listen to your problems, he might be nice to you, and act interested. At the end of the day they will tell you to take the new engine, or pound sand and they honestly do not care one way or the other. It is extremely, unlikley they are going to buy back the car. It has a bad engine. They are giving you a new one at their cost. The rest of the car is not affected by this. It is no different that a wheel being out of round, or a control arm being bent. They take off the bad part, put a new one on. YOu think an engine is different but it isn't. You're emotional about this and I get that. I was too. I understand it, but this is not the time really. It is a car. I know it is much more than that to most of us, and we want our 100k plus cars to be prefect in every way and think because we spent so much $$$ and so much of our lives working for the dream car we think we are entitled to it being perfect when we get there. It doesn't work that way. So you can make a big deal out of this, make threats, demands, etc but you will become "that guy" at the dealership that you do not want to be. You're getting a new engine. Take it, and get on with driving and enjoying the car. Life is too short for something so trivial to take up any momentsof not enjoying the car. MOve on man. It is the best way I promise. I learned this the hard way.

 

the only reason it has been more then 20 days now is because the owner of the car is now pushing them back on replacing the engine. They tried telling the owner they needed a new motor after 10 days, he did not find that acceptable. Trust me, i've been down this road before with an old car and faulty transmissions.

You can try the lemon law statute, but it will not work.

 

I'd like to thank almost all of you.
When this is all over, I invite you ALL back to my house for a BBQ! For all your suggestions and for all the passion you feel and express. I can appreciate the lines where I’m too emotionally attached/involved or that I should get over myself and take a replacement engine and loss, even that’s fine. I’ve explained this is a financial decision first, and my emotions are the driving force behind my vigorous position of not taking a loss. So I’m secure in my reasoning and rational and can’t be insulted. This forum is for sharing and I truly can feel everyone has offered their position/opinion with their best intentions and outcome for my situation.
However; there is one person who is presumptuous, and offending. Among a few things, he's got brass to suggest I delayed answers/repairs to default into the NJ Lemon Laws! I’d return that crystal ball HotRodGuy - certainly its broken - no wait – maybe you could just get it fixed regardless of your original cost or resale loss. Just don’t forget to tell them it’s been completely overhauled because it didn’t work right the first time. If you’re working for Porsche and just trying to discredit me, just come out and say it. I am surprised at your hostility and accusations – yet for the life of me, can’t figure out why you’d type such things. Aaah, but you can still come to the BBQ if you bring a bottle of Gold Label as a peace offering.
I have done no such thing and will come out of this in fine shape. Anyone who has doubts about my actions and behavior are all welcome to call the Dealership’s Service Manager and the Regional Service Director, ask them how I’ve handled myself, then report what they said here. To save you some time, they’ve thanked me for being so level headed and solution minded, and that's helped them respond well to my requests for a complete replacement vehicle Then call PCNA directly and you’ll find out there aren’t any replacement engines for the car on the continent of North America available at this time and shipping takes 2 weeks from Germany, so this couldn’t have been fixed this inside the legal time frames if they diagnosed it correctly in the first hour. Although the law is/will be in my favor, I certainly have to choose to implement it – which I never stated was my intent.
No one else accused me of doing any wrongdoing – granted, they’ve certainly suggested what to do, some with more vigor than others, but none suggested I sabotaged a potential solution. Some have defended me well (thank you SparkHill) and I will say it in my own words too; I LOVE MY PORSCHE, and I’ve nothing bad to say about the company or brand. At this point, I’ve not a bad thing to say about how things transpired or the people involved, so far they’ve been quite pleasant and amiable to work with. Even members of PCA and the Turbo Registry Club have contacted me directly and offered support - [Thank you all so very much!!]
My original post (and still an objective) was to get names, e-mail addresses and phone #’s to the decision makers at the top of the ladder to facilitate an immediate solution. It does make me sick that I may have to wait several more months for another car if I take a replacement. There is a term Six Sigma widely used in manufacturing: The core of the Six Sigma methodology is a data-driven, systematic approach to problem solving, with a focus on customer impact. This seems lost on my situation. Why they don’t expedite a replacement car within the next build cycle surprises me. It’s treated as a new order and placed at the back of the line, several months/build cycles later.
One thing several of you resonated was to take the replacement engine and the loss. I just can’t subscribe to that scenario. I stated this earlier and will repeat it here: Some buyers will not have concerns, or be affected by a replacement engine, but that certainly isn’t all buyers. Therefore, when time to sell, my purchasing audience is reduced by those that find replacement engines unacceptable. Once that happens it is only I who suffer from a reduced buying pool, in conjunction, the best possible offer.
So ... I studied the average sales price reduction of exotic cars with engine replacements. Seems this is a lot more common than I had thought. Several sources [Hemming’s Motor News, Sports Car Market Place, Galves, Black Book] and found first year resale of high end exotic auto’s with engine replacements reduces the price by 5 to 25%. It's been known some insurance companies discount the value of the car should there be considered totaled from accident damage and you bought it with a replacement engine.
So my second proposal is as follows: If Porsche was to compensate for potential losses, a replacement engine [not dealer rebuild], extended warrantee, and giving me a percentage back from my original purchase price to compensate any future losses I may incur whether they be a week later or several years down the road.
I know everyone involved at Porsche is working hard to facilitate a solution. At this time, I have good news regarding my first option, and we’re waiting to see the answer from the second option.
Here’s the latest twist – if I go with the replacement car it has to be immediately ordered. They may not produce any more Turbo Cab’s after July 08. Seems the next generation 998 is on its way and the Turbo Cab’s are usually 2 years after that!
Could this be true?!

More to come as it unfolds.

 

I just went through a similar issue with Cadillac. New Cad SRX V8 special ordered and leased in May, '07. Engine leaked at 400 miles and was replaced due to a porous block (2.5" x 2.5" honeycombing just in front of the bellhousing). This problem should have been caught while the engine was being assembled. New engine started leaking at 2000 miles. Front cover leak was repaired. At 4000 miles the right valve cover gasket was leaking and repaired. At 4800 miles a leak was found at the half-case (where the upper and lower halves of the block join...major issue) and this was repaired. I had had enough. Checking the Utah statute on Lemon Law, the car did comply. The Law (Utah), however, requires that in accordance with the Owners Manual and Warranty Claims, I had to first go through BBB arbitration before I could ask the State to declare the vehicle a Lemon. Thank God the car was a no money down Lease. At arbitration, GM sent the Divisions Service Manager (I have purchased or leased 19 vehicles in the last 39 years and all of the American cars including 8 Corvettes were GM). Prior to the arbitration, the DSM and I worked out an Agreement that gave essentially gave GM one more chance. If the engine leaks one more time (27 months left on the Lease), GM will either get me into any other GM vehicle at a mutually acceptable monetary arrangement or get me out of the GMAC Lease...my choice. I also mentioned that if this had been my '07 Corvette, we would have been in court immediately because of the diminished value of the vehicle. He made it very clear that they viewed Corvettes very differently because most tended to be low mileage and collector type cars. He stated that GM would go out of their way to settle, trade, or in extreme conditions buy back the vehicle.

Realizing that my time and aggravation factor just is not worth it, I would seriously consider the new engine WITH the following caveat: While I'm very familiar with low mileage Corvette resale values and the absolute need to maintain matching VIN's, I'm not too privy with Porsche resale values although I am aware that early (1-2 years) depreciation is "heavy". In accepting an engine replacement I would want to work out some type of monetary settlement (not only for my time spent not being able to drive the new vehicle) but for any diminished value after 3 years that a replacement engine might trigger on a resale.

My $.02.

Mike