Pics & Review of My Bilstein PSS10 Lowered Red Turbo
#211
12-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 
If you only have had the car for a few weeks, I would recommend to just drive the car as is for a month or two before you do anything. In that one or two months read and search this forum on the following 3 topics: suspension tuning, exhaust, and ecu tuning. These are probably the 3 key mods in the Turbo, and that's actually would be the order that I would do the mods.That said, any of these mods are only necessary if you think the stock equivalents are not acceptable. In other words, you don't have to change the suspsension if you like stock as is.
I discussed each of these 3 mods in the links in my signature in rather interminable details LOL - have fun. Obviously there are other choices and although I love mines, it's not the only way to skin the cat.
The key is only let reputable and seasoned tech touch your car -- absolutely no rookie, and if at all possible, test/audition the mods before buying. That is, test drive a car with Bilstein, listen to the exhaust, ask the people with the particular ECU tune, etc., etc. Done right, the Turbo will become an un-rivaled, un-equaled, daily driver; I love my baby and miss it every day that I don't drive it.
Last edited by cannga; 12-22-2010 at 01:43 PM.
#212
12-25-2010, 07:58 AM
Great post on steering...!
FWIW: That is the best summary of steering I have found. Thanks!!
The alignment changes in my Turbo are geared largely, almost singularly, towards reducing understeer. Following is a nice discussion why cars understeer or oversteer: http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...handling_4.htm . The concept of slip angle is explained and emphasized.
(Found on the net:If you see the tree before you hit it it's called understeer; if you only hear and feel the tree it's oversteer.
) Anyway, here's part of the article:
Neutral / Understeer / Oversteer
Note : the car is turning left
(Found on the net:If you see the tree before you hit it it's called understeer; if you only hear and feel the tree it's oversteer.
) Anyway, here's part of the article:Neutral / Understeer / Oversteer
- We often hear these 3 terms in car magazines. I think few people would argue if I say they are the most important elements in the study of handling. What is understeer ? Basically, if you turn the steering wheel and find the car steers less than you expect, the car is understeering. This is not because your subjective judgement goes wrong, in fact any car must have some degree of non-neutral steering due to the weight distribution, suspension design, tyre used, lateral acceleration and road conditions. Further more, a car could understeer in this corner and then oversteer in that corner. The whole picture is very complicated, so I'll spend more paragraphs to discuss this topic.
What do we need ?
It seems that neutral steer must be more desirable than understeer and oversteer, but in fact it is not. In fact, when running in straight line, we want a little bit understeer to make the car stable. When the car is subjected to side force, probably due to cross wind or the road's irregularities, understeer could resist the force and avoid the car to be steered automatically, therefore the driver need not to correct the steering frequently.
When the car is entering a corner, we also need a light understeer to provide the stability while the driver is easing off the brakes and building up cornering force. In mid corner, we need neutral steer. In the exit phase, a slight oversteer will be welcomed as it helps tightening the path. However, the degree of oversteer must be progressive and easily controllable by applying and easing throttle. We call this "Power Oversteer". Without power oversteer, we have to ease the throttle (thus loss time) or the car will run out of the corner.
However, I must make clear that what I say "slight understeer / oversteer" is usually deemed to be "near neutral steer" by most car magazines. This is because in reality there are too many cars running on severe understeer thus they used to them. In other words, if a car magazine said the Porsche 996 has mild understeer, it probably equals to "medium understeer" in our sense.
Basic Concept : Slip Angle
Before going on our study, we must understand the concept of slip angle first. When a car enters a corner, all the tyres are turned with respect to the ground. Due to the elasticity of the pneumatic tyre, the tread in the contact patch will resist the turning action because there is friction generated between the rubber and the road surface. As a result, the treads on the contact patch will be distorted, whose direction always lags behind the direction of the wheel ( See figure in below ). We call the angular difference between the treads and the wheel's direction as Slip Angle.
Note : the car is turning left- In which direction the wheel is running ? It is the direction of the tread, not the direciton of the wheel. I am not saying the tread has any ability to force the wheel to travel in its direction. On the contrary, the tread is only a sign showing how an arbitrary point on the tyre surface travels. If the arbitrary point travels in that direction, so does the wheel which is the summation of thousands of those points. Now you must think the existence of slip angle must reduce the car's steering angle thus leads to understeer. In fact, it is not so if everything else are perfect. Because both the front and rear tyres have more or less the same slip angles, they counter each other thus the resulting steering angle remains unaltered.
However, if the front and rear wheels have different slip angles, then we get understeer and oversteer :- Understeer : Front Slip Angle > Rear Slip Angle
- Oversteer : Front Slip Angle < Rear Slip Angle
Neutral steer : Front Slip Angle = Rear Slip Angle
#215
01-27-2011, 10:27 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254
bloomjbmw & Chris, thanks. Yes I love that site for the basic level information it offers and I very highly recommend it http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...handling_4.htm. Slip angle is, needless to say, boring and difficult to read especially for an amateur like me, but it's at the core of understeer/oversteer behavior. It's also a parameter that the PSM system uses to "interfere" in times of danger.
shatoum, thanks. Not the place for me to start another debate here
, but a good thread for this is actually in this thread (the discussion starts around page 4 of this thread): https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ametric-4.html
Whatever you decide, good luck and have fun. Just remember stiffer spring, within reasons, is better and once you have a taste of what stiffness does,
it would be unlikely for you to go back.
shatoum, thanks. Not the place for me to start another debate here
, but a good thread for this is actually in this thread (the discussion starts around page 4 of this thread): https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ametric-4.htmlWhatever you decide, good luck and have fun. Just remember stiffer spring, within reasons, is better and once you have a taste of what stiffness does,
it would be unlikely for you to go back.
Last edited by cannga; 01-27-2011 at 10:35 AM.
#216
01-30-2011, 09:54 PM
I have to say, this is one of the best threads I have read on the 997 Turbo on this site. Detailed and informative. Beautiful, beautiful 997 Turbo.
#218
08-05-2011, 07:21 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254
Tire weight update - Michelin Pilot Super Sport, non N rated. Pilot Super Sport is newer and is related, at least by name, to Pilot Sport. Higher weight a little disappointing. OTOH look at the price difference between Pilor Super Sport ($1300) and Pilot Sport ($2000)! 
I don't understand the significantly cheaper price, but I don't think I am going to complain about it.
Super Sport is claimed by Michelin to be "better" in many aspects: better in wet and dry road holding, 2 seconds faster in 1.6 mile course, higher tread rating of 300 vs. 220, 30,000 mile warranty. It's like a dream tire, per advertisement trouncing the best tire on the market, its older brother Pilot Sport. The technology used is born from endurance racing (Le Mans) and now found in this street tire.
The key to the performance of the Pilot Super Sport appears to come from Twaron, a synthetic aramid fiber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramid From what I could gather from ad materials and "web research," typically the belt of a tire tightens the tread more than the shoulders. By strengthening the tire with Twaron, pressure is more evenly distributed and the tire is kept in "shape." I would assume this why Michelin claims a nicer profile and contact patch with the Pilot Super Sport.
As always, any expert here please correct me as needed. I might just give this tire a try as my R compound experiment with Pirelli is coming to a noisy, very very noisy, end. Boy these R compound tires don't seem to age well, especially with the noise aspect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is my informal tire weight ranking, courtesy of Tire Rack's Tires for Porsche 997 Turbo 235/35-19 front, 305/30-19 rear (pls correct any mistake as needed).
The number in bold are the weights of one front plus one rear tire:
R Compound Michelin Cup: front/rear 20/27 = 47 lbs
R Compound Pirelli Corsa: 21/26 = 47
Continental Extreme Contact DW: 21/28 = 49
Race Tire Hoosier R6 (not street tire, 315/30-19 rear): 22/27 = 49
Michelin PS2: 22/28 = 50
Continental SportContact 3: 22/28 = 50
Pirelli Rosso: 22/29 = 51
Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 25/30 = 55***********
Bridgestone RE050A: 24/31 = 55
Hankook Ventus V12: 24/32=56
R Compound Toyo R888: 25/31 = 56
Bridgestone RE11: 27/32 = 59
Interesting, no? A weight difference of 24 lbs, such as from Michelin/Pirelli cup to Bridgestone RE11, should not be ignored. Another interesting example: a Turbo with iron brake and RE11 will have close to 60 lbs. more in unsprung weight than one with PCCB and Michelin Cup?
I am surprised that in my reading of tire comparisons on various forums, I've not run across more discussions of this extremely important parameter of tire weight.
I don't understand the significantly cheaper price, but I don't think I am going to complain about it.Super Sport is claimed by Michelin to be "better" in many aspects: better in wet and dry road holding, 2 seconds faster in 1.6 mile course, higher tread rating of 300 vs. 220, 30,000 mile warranty. It's like a dream tire, per advertisement trouncing the best tire on the market, its older brother Pilot Sport. The technology used is born from endurance racing (Le Mans) and now found in this street tire.
The key to the performance of the Pilot Super Sport appears to come from Twaron, a synthetic aramid fiber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramid From what I could gather from ad materials and "web research," typically the belt of a tire tightens the tread more than the shoulders. By strengthening the tire with Twaron, pressure is more evenly distributed and the tire is kept in "shape." I would assume this why Michelin claims a nicer profile and contact patch with the Pilot Super Sport.
As always, any expert here please correct me as needed. I might just give this tire a try as my R compound experiment with Pirelli is coming to a noisy, very very noisy, end.
Boy these R compound tires don't seem to age well, especially with the noise aspect.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is my informal tire weight ranking, courtesy of Tire Rack's Tires for Porsche 997 Turbo 235/35-19 front, 305/30-19 rear (pls correct any mistake as needed).
The number in bold are the weights of one front plus one rear tire:
R Compound Michelin Cup: front/rear 20/27 = 47 lbs
R Compound Pirelli Corsa: 21/26 = 47
Continental Extreme Contact DW: 21/28 = 49
Race Tire Hoosier R6 (not street tire, 315/30-19 rear): 22/27 = 49
Michelin PS2: 22/28 = 50
Continental SportContact 3: 22/28 = 50
Pirelli Rosso: 22/29 = 51
Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 25/30 = 55***********
Bridgestone RE050A: 24/31 = 55
Hankook Ventus V12: 24/32=56
R Compound Toyo R888: 25/31 = 56
Bridgestone RE11: 27/32 = 59
Interesting, no? A weight difference of 24 lbs, such as from Michelin/Pirelli cup to Bridgestone RE11, should not be ignored. Another interesting example: a Turbo with iron brake and RE11 will have close to 60 lbs. more in unsprung weight than one with PCCB and Michelin Cup?
I am surprised that in my reading of tire comparisons on various forums, I've not run across more discussions of this extremely important parameter of tire weight.
Last edited by cannga; 08-30-2011 at 03:06 PM.
#219
08-05-2011, 09:25 PM
^^ Yeah, I really wish Bridgestone would do something about the weight about the RE-11. They are a fabulous tire - better in every way than the PS2 and RE050's that I've had on this car. good thing I have PCCB's and light weight wheels - kind of makes up for some of that extra weight LOL.
i'm probably going to try the MSPC next.
i'm probably going to try the MSPC next.
#220
08-06-2011, 10:36 AM
Can,
You might be comparing apples and oranges here. A cup tire is not a good street tire. The super sport and sport are good street tires. The RE-11 is well suited to autocross, because of its' stiffer sidewall (thus the added weight). When selecting tires for your car you have to consider any number of things like what you use your car for, predominant weather conditions, how much you want to spend and how often. I have very limited experience with tires for my turbo, but I must say that for my purposes (mostly spirited driving on back roads) the super sports work just fine. Of course, if I were to purchase a few more sets of wheels, I could have all sorts of choices to swap back and forth.
Larry
You might be comparing apples and oranges here. A cup tire is not a good street tire. The super sport and sport are good street tires. The RE-11 is well suited to autocross, because of its' stiffer sidewall (thus the added weight). When selecting tires for your car you have to consider any number of things like what you use your car for, predominant weather conditions, how much you want to spend and how often. I have very limited experience with tires for my turbo, but I must say that for my purposes (mostly spirited driving on back roads) the super sports work just fine. Of course, if I were to purchase a few more sets of wheels, I could have all sorts of choices to swap back and forth.
Larry
#221
08-06-2011, 10:45 AM
[quote=cannga;3279010]Tire weight update - Michelin Pilot Super Sport, non N rated. Pilot Super Sport is newer and is related, at least by name, to Pilot Sport. Higher weight a little disappointing. OTOH look at the price difference between Pilor Super Sport ($1300) and Pilot Sport ($2000)! 
2 supposedly closely related tires, with Super Sport rumored to be even better. Doesn't make sense at all, no?
I'm guessing that when the super sport gets its' "N" rating the price will go up, and the sport will probably be phased out. If you believe the Michelin advertising the super sport is a better (more advanced technology) tire. At this point I'm a believer and bought the "cheaper" tire.
My experience (and I have lots of it) shows all tires are subject to flats making availability something to consider.
2 supposedly closely related tires, with Super Sport rumored to be even better. Doesn't make sense at all, no?I'm guessing that when the super sport gets its' "N" rating the price will go up, and the sport will probably be phased out. If you believe the Michelin advertising the super sport is a better (more advanced technology) tire. At this point I'm a believer and bought the "cheaper" tire.
My experience (and I have lots of it) shows all tires are subject to flats making availability something to consider.
#222
08-07-2011, 10:06 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254
NB: Added more info on Pilot Super Sport in post above.
Hi Larry, long time no see! You are absolutely correct, three things about R compound tires:
1. Noise. Particularly as the tire is towards end of its life. Road noise - a kind of nasty sounding white noise - is very obvious with my Pirelli Corsa. These tires don't age well.
2. Ride. Very stiff, and again, particularly worse as the tire grows old. Road imperfection takes on a sickening crack, as opposed to a thud.
3. Rain. No, no, no; dangerous in the wet. For where you are, this is a strict summer tire only.
That said, IMHO, if, and only if, anyone would like to explore the absolute limit of the turbo in the dry, R compound tire is a *requirement*. You have not lived until you do R compound. Kidding aside, I agree it's not for everyone. It is the great equalizer if you are ever to race a GT3 or GT2 though.
Much has been said about the sticky rubber, but IMHO not enough has been mentioned about the stiff sidewall of R compound tires (partly explains the lower pressure requirement: r compound tire has soft compound, stiff sidewall, therefore low pressure is ok), and how it affects handling. The stiff sidewall imparts a sense of vertical stability in the Turbo. The stock tires could have a rubbery bouncy feel; this instability is much less with the Pirelli Corsa that I have on. BTW, I am going to try Michelin Pilot Super Sport too, alternating in with R compound for summer; I can't resist the hypes from Michelin!
Hi Larry, long time no see! You are absolutely correct, three things about R compound tires:
1. Noise. Particularly as the tire is towards end of its life. Road noise - a kind of nasty sounding white noise - is very obvious with my Pirelli Corsa. These tires don't age well.
2. Ride. Very stiff, and again, particularly worse as the tire grows old. Road imperfection takes on a sickening crack, as opposed to a thud.
3. Rain. No, no, no; dangerous in the wet. For where you are, this is a strict summer tire only.
That said, IMHO, if, and only if, anyone would like to explore the absolute limit of the turbo in the dry, R compound tire is a *requirement*. You have not lived until you do R compound.
Kidding aside, I agree it's not for everyone. It is the great equalizer if you are ever to race a GT3 or GT2 though.Much has been said about the sticky rubber, but IMHO not enough has been mentioned about the stiff sidewall of R compound tires (partly explains the lower pressure requirement: r compound tire has soft compound, stiff sidewall, therefore low pressure is ok), and how it affects handling. The stiff sidewall imparts a sense of vertical stability in the Turbo. The stock tires could have a rubbery bouncy feel; this instability is much less with the Pirelli Corsa that I have on. BTW, I am going to try Michelin Pilot Super Sport too, alternating in with R compound for summer; I can't resist the hypes from Michelin!
Last edited by cannga; 08-07-2011 at 10:28 AM.
#223
08-07-2011, 10:19 AM
Can, I do have a little question for you regarding suspension. If you were in the market now for suspension would you still stick with the Bilstein coils or go with something else? I will be looking to upgrade mine perhaps this winter and am curious to hear your thoughts. The car will be primarily used for pleasure (around town driving, spirited drives, probably little to no track use).
#224
08-08-2011, 12:05 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 Can, I do have a little question for you regarding suspension. If you were in the market now for suspension would you still stick with the Bilstein coils or go with something else? I will be looking to upgrade mine perhaps this winter and am curious to hear your thoughts. The car will be primarily used for pleasure (around town driving, spirited drives, probably little to no track use).
1. Buy a brand new unit. Under no circumstance would I recommend buying a used coilover - it's not worth it. Used coilover could cause a load of hassle and $$ if something goes wrong. There is also the safety issue.
2. Only a professional AND experienced installer be allowed to touch your Porsche's suspension system. No rookie, period. Post on this forum and ask for recommendation. You are closed to EVOMS, no? www.evoms.com
3. Buy from authorized dealer. A good source is a forum sponsor: AWE Tuning http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/p...e-pss10-1.html
Besides the 1. B16 Damptronic, there are 3 other systems that I would consider to be very good as well:
2. Bilstein B16 PSS10: Same as Damptronic but no PASM. Bump and rebound dampening adjusted by **** on the coilover.
3. KW Variant 3: Excellent but I have no direct experience. Independent bump and rebound. No PASM.
4. TPC modified B16 Damptronic: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/t...coilovers.html . Expensive and likely stiffer than the basic Bilstein unit. Front spring is changed to a higher spring rate, what rate I don't know and TPC ain't telling.
But as you might already know, the majority of people here have B16 Damptronic, and that's what I would recommend. Designed and made by the same company that makes the OEM suspension, using Porsche's chief test drive as consultant (Walter Rorhl), this is about as no brainer a mod as there is.
If you agree with my assessment on the first page of this thread, then Bilstein should be the first and most important mod to 997.1 Turbo, before exhaust and ECU mods. It transforms the car and makes it a wonderful pleasure to drive the twisties.
Last edited by cannga; 08-08-2011 at 01:52 PM.
#225
08-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Hi, yes it would be Bilstein B16 Damptronic, without hesitation, on 3 conditions (based on past experience of friends/other owners):
1. Buy a brand new unit. Under no circumstance would I recommend buying a used coilover - it's not worth it. Used coilover could cause a load of hassle and $$ if something goes wrong. There is also the safety issue.
2. Only a professional AND experienced installer be allowed to touch your Porsche's suspension system. No rookie, period. Post on this forum and ask for recommendation. You are closed to EVOMS, no? www.evoms.com
3. Buy from authorized dealer. A good source is a forum sponsor: AWE Tuning http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/p...e-pss10-1.html
Besides the 1. B16 Damptronic, there are 3 other systems that I would consider to be very good as well:
2. Bilstein B16 PSS10: Same as Damptronic but no PASM. Bump and rebound dampening adjusted by **** on the coilover.
3. KW Variant 3: Excellent but I have no direct experience. Independent bump and rebound. No PASM.
4. TPC modified B16 Damptronic: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/t...coilovers.html . Expensive and likely stiffer than the basic Bilstein unit. Front spring is changed to a higher spring rate, what rate I don't know and TPC ain't telling.
But as you might already know, the majority of people here have B16 Damptronic, and that's what I would recommend. Designed and made by the same company that makes the OEM suspension, using Porsche's chief test drive as consultant (Walter Rorhl), this is about as no brainer a mod as there is.
If you agree with my assessment on the first page of this thread, then Bilstein should be the first and most important mod to 997.1 Turbo, before exhaust and ECU mods. It transforms the car and simply, a pleasure for driving the twisties.
1. Buy a brand new unit. Under no circumstance would I recommend buying a used coilover - it's not worth it. Used coilover could cause a load of hassle and $$ if something goes wrong. There is also the safety issue.
2. Only a professional AND experienced installer be allowed to touch your Porsche's suspension system. No rookie, period. Post on this forum and ask for recommendation. You are closed to EVOMS, no? www.evoms.com
3. Buy from authorized dealer. A good source is a forum sponsor: AWE Tuning http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/p...e-pss10-1.html
Besides the 1. B16 Damptronic, there are 3 other systems that I would consider to be very good as well:
2. Bilstein B16 PSS10: Same as Damptronic but no PASM. Bump and rebound dampening adjusted by **** on the coilover.
3. KW Variant 3: Excellent but I have no direct experience. Independent bump and rebound. No PASM.
4. TPC modified B16 Damptronic: http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/t...coilovers.html . Expensive and likely stiffer than the basic Bilstein unit. Front spring is changed to a higher spring rate, what rate I don't know and TPC ain't telling.
But as you might already know, the majority of people here have B16 Damptronic, and that's what I would recommend. Designed and made by the same company that makes the OEM suspension, using Porsche's chief test drive as consultant (Walter Rorhl), this is about as no brainer a mod as there is.
If you agree with my assessment on the first page of this thread, then Bilstein should be the first and most important mod to 997.1 Turbo, before exhaust and ECU mods. It transforms the car and simply, a pleasure for driving the twisties.