Pics & Review of My Bilstein PSS10 Lowered Red Turbo

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#526

10-09-2013, 08:24 PM

pwdrhound

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I have the RUF front strut bar and can tell you that it makes a difference in tying everything together especially if you are running monoballs with sticky tires. I while back I was getting all kinds of creaking coming from the front of the car and I thought it was the windshield creaking. It turned out that the front bar was not tightened properly and was making the noises as the car body was flexing. Tightened it up and all was good again. The trick is to put a bit of preload on the bar before tightening the bolts down. That tells me that the front bar is beneficial. Cant speak for the rear bar as I have a roll bar tying the rear together.

#527

10-12-2013, 10:51 AM

cannga

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VID997

At 50% off you can't go wrong and these are a very easy DIY. Seeing as your install will be "fresh" you can offer us before and after comparisons if any are detected.

I have had mine in since day one, therefore cannot offer any real feed back one way or the other; plus my suspension development has grown over the years with the stock tower brace in place every step of the way. No one has ever suggested removing it through the development process...

I second this recommendation.

Sanham, I've never been known to recommend people NOT to spend money on hobbies

, YOLO, life is short, etc. Also, look at pwdrhound's post above. You are already thinking about it and it's cheap enough at such a discount, and I am sure if all else fails, it looks pretty under there :-).

Post your before and after review here if you have a chance; yours will be the first "isolated component report" that we've seen for 997 Turbo.

Last edited by cannga; 10-12-2013 at 11:08 AM.

#528

10-14-2013, 09:25 AM

sanham

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its done....

I have the bar installed in my turbo, very easy task to do... and also very nice piece of art from techart. For my taste the bar is very close to the positive terminal of the battery, so I turn a little the cable terminal so the bar can’t touch it by mistake.

The car feels exactly the same in the street, or at the highway at normal conditions and use, no extra noises or stiffness.

this weekend I took it to the Manuel E Abed race track in amozoc Puebla, this is a very short and curvy track so I couldn’t feel the difference Vs. the track I normally go (Hermanos Rodriguez in Mexico city), But I can say that the steering under more pressure, effort or speed (like you want to name it) feels sharper, i can’t say exactly if it was because the different race track lines and use of me but It feels nice, and like you said is not a big investment and always is nice to add something to our toys...

As soon as I can I’ll let you know my comments on the Hermanos Rodriguez racetrack.
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#529

10-15-2013, 10:41 AM

cannga

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sanham

I have the bar installed in my turbo, very easy task to do... and also very nice piece of art from techart. For my taste the bar is very close to the positive terminal of the battery, so I turn a little the cable terminal so the bar can’t touch it by mistake.

The car feels exactly the same in the street, or at the highway at normal conditions and use, no extra noises or stiffness.

this weekend I took it to the Manuel E Abed race track in amozoc Puebla, this is a very short and curvy track so I couldn’t feel the difference Vs. the track I normally go (Hermanos Rodriguez in Mexico city), But I can say that the steering under more pressure, effort or speed (like you want to name it) feels sharper, i can’t say exactly if it was because the different race track lines and use of me but It feels nice, and like you said is not a big investment and always is nice to add something to our toys...

As soon as I can I’ll let you know my comments on the Hermanos Rodriguez racetrack.

Sanham, thanks for the good and interesting feedback. Update as you please and enjoy the toy in good health.

Last edited by cannga; 10-15-2013 at 10:43 AM.

#530

10-15-2013, 05:59 PM

ryem3

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I'd swear I've read all the posts in this thread, but thought this hadn't been discussed much.
Given the issues people have had with PASM related failures due to the poor wire engineering of the damptronics system, why not just install the PSS10s? Set them for the perfect street compression and rebound and forget about them. Readjust for the track. How many damptronics users use the bottom anyway? Sounds like it would just make more sense to disable the PASM and run without it.

Also, how about the H&R coil over setup? Seems they do not use keeper springs, so this may avoid the clunking issues of the Bilsteins. Are there any users here? Can, I think you referenced the H&R spring rate as "could be as soft as stock" - with appropriate damper settings, this could make for a nice street ride. H&R makes tons of springs too, so different rates could certainly be purchased to adjust the ride. I've really loved Eibach myself, but they dont make their coil over set up for the turbo. I wonder if it is sold in Europe only.

Thoughts? Apologies if this is already covered somewhere else!

#531

10-16-2013, 01:17 AM

cannga

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For those who don't know: there are 2 versions of the Bilstein for Turbo:
1. Bilstein B16 Damptronic: with automatic control of dampening force and retains function of PASM button.
2. Bilstein B16 PSS10: manual settings of dampening force - like other typical coilovers such as KW, Moton, JRZ, etc. PASM button no longer works.
ryem3 is asking about number 2, as opposed to the ones used by most people here, number 1.

C, yes you are absolutely correct. For those who worry about PASM electronic failure, PSS10 is to me the first choice for an alternative (believe I mentioned this in first page but, no problem). I think PSS10 is more street friendly than its most worthy competitor, the excellent KW V3, and still would retain the OEM Porsche 911 feel. Primarily, because its spring rates are Porsche-typical: rear about 150 to 200 larger than front. PSS10 is but a newer version of PSS9, a damper that's been around a LONG time and used by 996 Turbo owners. If I have electronic failure with my Damptronic, this is the route I would take.

The problem is it's not that simple; we don't know if PSS10 would feel the same as "Damptronic, without the PASM button." First, obviously, is that you have to set dampening forces, which depends on who you are, may be simple or may leave you wondering. I don't have any experience (no one does actually, I don't know if there's been a PSS10 on any Turbo) so I can't tell how easy it is to get a "perfect" setting with PSS10 non-pasm, or whether the car will still overall "feel/behave" the same as the Damptronic. This is the unknown; I would be ok with it but others who are less adventurous might not.

The nice thing about Damptronic is that it is such a fantastic setup and completely plug-and-play. It is the best compromise street-track combination that I've ever driven and elevates our Turbo to another level altogether. This is why, for me, if I have to do it all over again, I would still go with the Damptronic version and would only switch to PSS10 if I have electronic problem. My Damptronic will hit 6 years (!) soon enough, and I've done all sorts of abusive things to it without any problem, so I remain optimistic.

For the record, I have never been a fan of PASM - it's gimmicky and I prefer just one setting; but we are dealt the hand and there is no way around it if you want to retain stock function.
Also, FWIW, for me, PASM in the BMW M3 is so much better than our first generation Porsche PASM, it's not even funny. The 3 settings of M# are entirely useable and not going from one extreme to another (extremely soft to extremely stiff) like the Porsche Turbo.

Last edited by cannga; 10-16-2013 at 03:28 AM.

#532

10-16-2013, 01:48 AM

cannga

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ryem3

Also, how about the H&R coil over setup? Seems they do not use keeper springs, so this may avoid the clunking issues of the Bilsteins. Are there any users here? Can, I think you referenced the H&R spring rate as "could be as soft as stock" - with appropriate damper settings, this could make for a nice street ride. H&R makes tons of springs too, so different rates could certainly be purchased to adjust the ride. I've really loved Eibach myself, but they dont make their coil over set up for the turbo. I wonder if it is sold in Europe only.

C., not sure if I understand your question correctly, but the H&R springs I referred to are lowering springs meant to use with stock damper, you can't adjust damper settings. It is true that among lowering springs, H&R is rumored/reported to be the softest, "like stock." There are many H&R lowering spring users on this forum and people are happy with them. However, if your goal is to stiffen the car and make it more sporty, you will have to add other stiffening components: Heim joints, sway bar, etc., etc.

The famous "War Admiral 997.1 Turbo" (? name) by Champion Porsche, the one that got an absolute rave review in Excellence a few years ago, was in fact based on H&R springs (anyone pls correct as needed), but as mentioned above, it has a bunch of other suspension mods. This was my original first choice but when I called Champion at the time, around 2008, whoever answered the phone told me they were still trying to figure out exactly what components they put in the car

, and they didn't have the package for sale. I called 2-3 times then gave up. A few months later, Bilstein released the Damptronic and as the expression goes, rest is history.

Eibach is top notch spring company, they do make lowering springs for the Turbo and available here in the US, but they don't make coilover, not to my knowledge and not for Turbo anyway.

Clunk with coilovers (not just Bilstein) are like brake noise IMHO. If you have it, have a professional check out to make sure there is nothing wrong with suspension, and then don't worry about it. I think it's the sound of the springs setting in its seat. It should ONLY happen at parking lot at extreme steering angle, otherwise it is NOT normal. It doesn't bother me, but if you cannot tolerate clunk in parking lot at severe steering angle, better to stay stock.

Last edited by cannga; 10-16-2013 at 07:49 AM.

#533

10-16-2013, 09:43 AM

ryem3

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Actuallly think you misunderstood a bit. Indeed, I was referring to the PSS10. Given that several people (Larry and others) have had PASM failures due to shorted PASM wires, the PSS10 seems like the better choice. Heck, if you are going to the KW3's, that is disabling PASM as well, plus going to ridiculous spring rates. I get the feeling that many people aren't using the button anyway, but just asking if people are using it.

If you check, there are actually a number of coilover systems. Eibach, H&R and even Koni has one. Here is the H&R system for our cars:
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...tandard+Brakes

For the turbo, it seems that the Koni and Eibach alternatives are not available, at least not through TireRack. The H&R might be a good alternative to KW however, given it is half the price. Just wondering if anyone is using it.
Here is the Eibach system. Looks great, wonder if it is made for the 997.1 turbo:
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...1&cat=CoilOver

#534

10-16-2013, 10:41 AM

cannga

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ryem3

Actuallly think you misunderstood a bit. Indeed, I was referring to the PSS10. Given that several people (Larry and others) have had PASM failures due to shorted PASM wires, the PSS10 seems like the better choice. Heck, if you are going to the KW3's, that is disabling PASM as well, plus going to ridiculous spring rates. I get the feeling that many people aren't using the button anyway, but just asking if people are using it.

If you check, there are actually a number of coilover systems. Eibach, H&R and even Koni has one. Here is the H&R system for our cars:
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...tandard+Brakes

For the turbo, it seems that the Koni and Eibach alternatives are not available, at least not through TireRack. The H&R might be a good alternative to KW however, given it is half the price. Just wondering if anyone is using it.
Here is the Eibach system. Looks great, wonder if it is made for the 997.1 turbo:
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...1&cat=CoilOver

"Seems" is the key word here; and yes I agreed with you PSS10 is a very reasonable alternative as I've already stated. And I also think that it should be on top of list of non-PASM coilover. I don't believe I misunderstood - I outlined the 2 systems in the post above: PSS10 vs. Damptronic, and in fact both have been discussed on page 1 of this thread. Lastly, I know people are upset and undersand why they are upset, OTOH the Bilstein has been in my car and others close to 6 years; I don't want to inflame the issue anymore by stating I feel differently, but I hope you see my point and let's not visit this topic here as there have been multiple threads on it (pay attention to Bilstein in various people's signature here, a number has been on for 4-5 years). I've quit discussing those issues because people are so upset, and understandably so, not because I don't have my own opinion.

Regarding cost, unlike say cosmetic component, IMHO, suspension is NOT the place to shop according to how much you could save. This is a key component of the car, go with whatever you are comfortable with, not my place to intervene, but if you shop according to cost, history will not be on your side.

How about these other suspensions you mentioned? Yes only if you want to be the guinea pig, and no I won't stop anyone. Example: JRZ. Supposed to be compatible, but a friend tried this in our Turbo a few years ago, went through 2 installers and hell, eventually got it right but ending up getting rid of it because it was too stiff. Mario recently went through the same thing; I haven't heard from him so don't know what happened but his JRZ experiment was NO cakewalk. IOW, if you want to try, go ahead, but not what I would recommend. There are multiple choices available from GMG lowering spring, to PSS10, KW, etc., why re-invent the wheel.

Second example: Eibach is a great spring company, but for our car, I wouldn't let their coilover touch our Turbo with a 10 foot pole, unless I know for sure that it's a re-branded by another manufacturer. That kit you mentioned was used by someone for Dodge Challenger (!) and WV GTI whatever, and the Challenger guy wouldn't even recommend it. I mean, it's just dangerous to take a chance.

My opinion is still the same, for anyone who cares:
PASM: Bilstein Damptronic
Non PASM: Bilstein PSS10, KW V3
Lowering springs: Techart or GMG.

Last edited by cannga; 10-18-2013 at 01:21 AM.

#535

10-16-2013, 02:08 PM

amdave

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Beautiful car!

#536

10-16-2013, 08:37 PM

ryem3

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Quote:

Originally Posted by cannga

Second example: Eibach is a great spring company, but for our car, I wouldn't let their coilover touch our Turbo with a 10 foot pole, unless I know for sure that it's a re-branded by another manufacturer. That kit you mentioned was used by someone for Dodge Challenger (!) and WV GTI whatever, and the Challenger guy wouldn't even recommend it. I mean, it's just dangerous to take a chance.

My opinion is still the same, for anyone who cares:
PASM: Bilstein Damptronic
Non PASM: Bilstein PSS10, KW V3
Lowering springs: Techart or GMG.

Peace my man!

I didn't intend to confuse things by suggesting that Eibach has a system for our cars - unfortunately they don't. I tried to look it up. If you have a new Vette, they have a system for you and it looks damn good. But not for us.

However, your list is missing the H&R coilover set. Yes, it is a non PASM setup. Given that several people seemed to be looking at KW, why not look at H&R? Anyone running them? H&R is very reputable, so should be a decent alternative. I'm a little confused your lowering spring choices as I believe these are custom selected and rebranded H&R or Eibach coils. Don't know that they are necessarily better, but perhaps the rates are better than the Sport and Pro Kit selections from the two majors.

#537

10-17-2013, 07:24 AM

cannga

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amdave, thanks for the nice comment.

ryem3, VERY good questions and you are not letting me get away with anything my friend

. I will answer & explain myself later but for now, here's an interesting video, admittedly an advertisement, to show even within Bilstein line, not all shock absorbers are the same:

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/vrUuESt2Q9I" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Last edited by cannga; 10-18-2013 at 01:27 AM.