Pics & Review of My Bilstein PSS10 Lowered Red Turbo
#676
03-07-2016, 06:49 AM
Yes you are correct. We can actually achieve the same results with softer spring rates by making up for it with more damping.
#677
03-07-2016, 10:52 AM
Don't mind me asking this. This may sound stupid. nevertheless. Assuming, without questioning, that the DSC module (via software tuning) can compensate for softer spring rate. if that were so, then why would three spring rates be made available on the TracTive DSC system. Wouldn't one median spring rate suffice? The rest will be done and taken care of by the DSC box. Would it not? Or is it that there is a limitation of the valve control (as in a hardware limitation) which necessitates different spring rates. or is it a limitation of the DSC box module?
#678
03-07-2016, 12:24 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 
Don't mind me asking this. This may sound stupid. nevertheless. Assuming, without questioning, that the1. DSC module (via software tuning) can compensate for softer spring rate. if that were so, then why would 2. three spring rates be made available on the TracTive DSC system. Wouldn't one median spring rate suffice? The rest will be done and taken care of by the DSC box. Would it not? Or is it that there is a limitation of the valve control (as in a hardware limitation) which necessitates different spring rates. or is it a limitation of the DSC box module?
1. Up to a point only. Two key components make up the suspension system: spring and damper. To make the system stiffer, you could stiffen dampening rate, but this only "works" up to a certain point. Eventually and ideally, you will have to go up on spring rate, and THEN tune the damper to fit that spring rate.
What happens if you do jack up the dampening rate instead of changing to stiffer spring? This is the problem with 997.1 stock system: Porsche/Bilstein engineers increases the dampening force so high in the Sport mode that the system has no compliance whatsoever. This is why it's so jittery and so un-useable, and why TPC DSC is a great solution.
2. Spring is the key of any suspension system. The 3 spring rates used by TPC is expected and nothing abnormal- see 1 above. Pro and expert tuners such as TPC would pick a spring rate, then tune the damper to fit it. Comments below are my opinions.
TPC Tractive DDA for Turbo
1. Road & Track version with 343/628 (60/110 n/mm) springs (similar range to Bilstein Damptronic)
2. Intermediate version with 457/742 (80/130 n/mm) springs (now we are talking - this takes the Turbo to GT3 level and this is where I would try if I have the $)
3. Extreme track version with 571/857 (100/150 n/mm) springs (GT3 killer
Kidding)The beauty of using coilover such as TPC's Tractive is that the springs could be easily exchanged as your needs and taste change. This is no big deal and the spring costs about 100 each. You could do the same with your Techart Bilstein's springs; change them to softer or stiffer springs as I did. BTW above discussion is why I've told Changster that DSC is great, but eventually if you want to get "serious" you will have to deal with the soft spring of stock Turbo (200/450 range): by changing to either stiffer lowering spring, or to a coilover with stiffer spring.
Last edited by cannga; 03-08-2016 at 12:15 AM.
#679
03-07-2016, 12:27 PM
For those with the first boxes that came with 3 modes: Does it require firmware upgrade (sending the box to you) in order to get this new g patch fill and more dynamic range you speak about? or can we simply update the maps using the software you provided?
-Jose
-Jose
We switched to 2 modes for a couple of reasons.
Probably the biggest reason is we simply don't need 3 modes. We are now able to achieve the same dynamic range, if not greater, than we were able to with three modes. The factory left a hole in the g table, where when there was less than .2g of input (the exact number may vary; I'm just going off memory right now) the system would be in full soft. Our engineer created a g patch to fill this in, which has allowed us to increase the range within a given mode. As technology progresses fewer modes become necessary because it's becoming more dynamic/active.
One of the other reasons is that some people were complaining about the blinking light sequence. By switching to two modes we are now able to establish factory mode selection and display, meaning it will now display "Normal" or "Sport" on your dash just as the factory system does.
If you wish to experiment with more modes or tuning files, you can simply save some on a laptop and make your changes that way. You're only limited to two modes while driving.
Probably the biggest reason is we simply don't need 3 modes. We are now able to achieve the same dynamic range, if not greater, than we were able to with three modes. The factory left a hole in the g table, where when there was less than .2g of input (the exact number may vary; I'm just going off memory right now) the system would be in full soft. Our engineer created a g patch to fill this in, which has allowed us to increase the range within a given mode. As technology progresses fewer modes become necessary because it's becoming more dynamic/active.
One of the other reasons is that some people were complaining about the blinking light sequence. By switching to two modes we are now able to establish factory mode selection and display, meaning it will now display "Normal" or "Sport" on your dash just as the factory system does.
If you wish to experiment with more modes or tuning files, you can simply save some on a laptop and make your changes that way. You're only limited to two modes while driving.
#680
03-07-2016, 07:24 PM
jjurroz,
If I remember right, you CAN send the older DSC box to them and they will upgrade... It would be worthwhile to ask Harris TPC if it is possible doing the upgrade online.
If I remember right, you CAN send the older DSC box to them and they will upgrade... It would be worthwhile to ask Harris TPC if it is possible doing the upgrade online.
#681
03-08-2016, 06:47 AM
At this time, you must send the controllers in for an update. We're working on a file that will allow you to do the update, but there's not guarantee (or even much of a ballpark at this point) when that will be available unfortunately. For this upgrade it's best to send them in if you want the two modes, g patch, and software tuning (most three mode controllers are not compatible with the tuning software). Hopefully we'll be able to offer downloadable files in the future for major updates; it's just a matter of doing so without the risk of damaging the controller.
#682
03-08-2016, 07:29 AM
Well, looks like I'll be sending mine in for an update in this case.
Could you PM me the details.
Could you PM me the details.
#683
03-08-2016, 07:40 AM
Anybody interested in details for the update should email me at jedwards@dscsport.com - I'll be able to respond faster there than in PMs here.
#685
03-08-2016, 08:01 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 We switched to 2 modes for a couple of reasons.
Probably the biggest reason is we simply don't need 3 modes. We are now able to achieve the same dynamic range, if not greater, than we were able to with three modes. The factory left a hole in the g table, where when there was less than .2g of input (the exact number may vary; I'm just going off memory right now) the system would be in full soft. Our engineer created a g patch to fill this in, which has allowed us to increase the range within a given mode. As technology progresses fewer modes become necessary because it's becoming more dynamic/active.
One of the other reasons is that some people were complaining about the blinking light sequence. By switching to two modes we are now able to establish factory mode selection and display, meaning it will now display "Normal" or "Sport" on your dash just as the factory system does.
If you wish to experiment with more modes or tuning files, you can simply save some on a laptop and make your changes that way. You're only limited to two modes while driving.
Probably the biggest reason is we simply don't need 3 modes. We are now able to achieve the same dynamic range, if not greater, than we were able to with three modes. The factory left a hole in the g table, where when there was less than .2g of input (the exact number may vary; I'm just going off memory right now) the system would be in full soft. Our engineer created a g patch to fill this in, which has allowed us to increase the range within a given mode. As technology progresses fewer modes become necessary because it's becoming more dynamic/active.
One of the other reasons is that some people were complaining about the blinking light sequence. By switching to two modes we are now able to establish factory mode selection and display, meaning it will now display "Normal" or "Sport" on your dash just as the factory system does.
If you wish to experiment with more modes or tuning files, you can simply save some on a laptop and make your changes that way. You're only limited to two modes while driving.
. I had no idea there is such deficiency like the hole in the g table by factory Porsche.Sorry for keeping asking these questions on public forum and not PM - it's great stuff for everyone to read about. I mean well to TPC and do appreciate the pioneering suspension work for our Turbo; this car NEEDS help :-) as you already know. Might even become a customer one of these days. Cheers.
Last edited by cannga; 03-08-2016 at 08:21 PM.
#686
03-08-2016, 08:49 PM
Wow fascinating stuff. Thanks Harris for taking the time to explain - great customer service even to non-customer like me . I had no idea there is such deficiency like the hole in the g table by factory Porsche.
Sorry for keeping asking these questions on public forum and not PM - it's great stuff for everyone to read about. I mean well to TPC and do appreciate the pioneering suspension work for our Turbo; this car NEEDS help :-) as you already know. Might even become a customer one of these days. Cheers.
. I had no idea there is such deficiency like the hole in the g table by factory Porsche.Sorry for keeping asking these questions on public forum and not PM - it's great stuff for everyone to read about. I mean well to TPC and do appreciate the pioneering suspension work for our Turbo; this car NEEDS help :-) as you already know. Might even become a customer one of these days. Cheers.
#688
03-09-2016, 07:45 AM
However, we felt for marketing/branding purposes DSC Sport needed to be its own brand for a number of reasons. It really is a revolutionary product that sets its sights on the future and for that we feel it's self sustainable and could actually cloud the brand image of TPC if it were sold as a TPC product. Most importantly (and related to the aforementioned reason) is that TPC Racing is dedicated to Porsche; DSC Sport is branching into the Viper, Corvette, GTR, Mustang, etc. markets. All customer cars that come into the "TPC" shop are Porsches. While some of the mentioned models for DSC have made it into the shop for development, it's simply for that. Development. We don't work on non-Porsche cars for customers at TPC Racing.
I could go into more detail, but there is much work to be done! Long story short, DSC is the brain child/subsidiary of TPC Racing, focused on the future of suspension engineering, drawing from all of our experience racing as TPC Racing.
#689
03-09-2016, 10:08 AM
Solid marketing fundamentals at work right there!
Absolutely. I think everyone is more or less familiar with TPC Racing, so I won't waste time explaining our history. With regards to operations, DSC Sport is more or less the same as TPC Racing, with the addition of some software engineers and other experts we consult with that are not really necessary for what we do at TPC Racing.
However, we felt for marketing/branding purposes DSC Sport needed to be its own brand for a number of reasons. It really is a revolutionary product that sets its sights on the future and for that we feel it's self sustainable and could actually cloud the brand image of TPC if it were sold as a TPC product. Most importantly (and related to the aforementioned reason) is that TPC Racing is dedicated to Porsche; DSC Sport is branching into the Viper, Corvette, GTR, Mustang, etc. markets. All customer cars that come into the "TPC" shop are Porsches. While some of the mentioned models for DSC have made it into the shop for development, it's simply for that. Development. We don't work on non-Porsche cars for customers at TPC Racing.
I could go into more detail, but there is much work to be done! Long story short, DSC is the brain child/subsidiary of TPC Racing, focused on the future of suspension engineering, drawing from all of our experience racing as TPC Racing.
However, we felt for marketing/branding purposes DSC Sport needed to be its own brand for a number of reasons. It really is a revolutionary product that sets its sights on the future and for that we feel it's self sustainable and could actually cloud the brand image of TPC if it were sold as a TPC product. Most importantly (and related to the aforementioned reason) is that TPC Racing is dedicated to Porsche; DSC Sport is branching into the Viper, Corvette, GTR, Mustang, etc. markets. All customer cars that come into the "TPC" shop are Porsches. While some of the mentioned models for DSC have made it into the shop for development, it's simply for that. Development. We don't work on non-Porsche cars for customers at TPC Racing.
I could go into more detail, but there is much work to be done! Long story short, DSC is the brain child/subsidiary of TPC Racing, focused on the future of suspension engineering, drawing from all of our experience racing as TPC Racing.
#690
03-12-2016, 11:02 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254
I updated my un-official spring rate table to include TPC Tractive as well as two track oriented cars from forum members Webspoke and pwdrhound (pls PM me if you don't want me to list it). Again this is just for fun and to give you some idea.
Pay attention to the 200-300 front to rear spring rate difference in nearly all 911's. An AWD car tends to understeer so softer spring rate in front (and softer front sway bar setting, wider front tire, etc.) helps to reduce this understeer. This is particularly important for advanced drivers at the track because it improves cornering traction. If you are beginner-level like me :-), a little understeer is not a bad thing and in general is considered safer in amateurs' hands.
Pay attention to the 200-300 front to rear spring rate difference in nearly all 911's. An AWD car tends to understeer so softer spring rate in front (and softer front sway bar setting, wider front tire, etc.) helps to reduce this understeer. This is particularly important for advanced drivers at the track because it improves cornering traction. If you are beginner-level like me :-), a little understeer is not a bad thing and in general is considered safer in amateurs' hands.
3. Spring Rates Summary: Spring rates are the heart and soul of the suspension system, they tell you the intention of the car/vendor: Is this going to be a street car or is this gonna be a track star :-)? Note that the damper also contributes significantly to how the car feel: a Bilstein PASM with 400/600 springs will feel completely different from a JRZ with 400/600 springs with adjustable bump/rebound settings. This is because the damping forces in the 2 coilovers are different, JRZ has damping forces designed for heavier springs and for more vigorous requirements of track use. Also other factors such as constructions are different; one example: Bilstein re-uses the stock's top mount/bearing which has rubber parts to soften the blow, JRZ to best of my knowledge does not - anyone pls correct me as needed. So although the spring rates give you some important idea, the bottom line is you won't know until you actually drive the car.
Source for spring rates below: Very extensive web research (ie no guarantee whatsoever of accuracy :-) ) and Excellence Magazine. GT3 rates are posted for comparison, and do keep in mind the GT3 is around 300 lbs lighter than Turbo, meaning if anything the Turbo's springs could/should be even stiffer than GT3's. Also, 997.2 Turbo's engine is lighter, making the increased spring rate noteworthy. Anyone with more info please correct as needed.
Spring Rate Unit conversion 100 lbf/in = 17.5 N/mm
Stock 997.1 Turbo:
Front: 206 lbf/in
Rear: 457 Linear
Stock 997.2 Turbo
Front: 206
Rear: 514 Progressive (342 initial, 514 final)
Bilstein Damptronic For 997 Turbo
Front: 340 Linear
Rear: 565 Linear
Helper springs (no contribution towards rate) 115 front, 145 rear
Bilstein Damptronic in my baby, 997.1 Turbo
(stiffer springs than Bilstein OEM)
Front: 448
Rear: 600
Ohlins Road & Track For 997 Turbo
Front: 400
Rear: 685
TPC Tractive DDA for 997 Turbo
1. Road & Track version with 343/628 (60/110 n/mm) springs
2. Intermediate version with 457/742 (80/130 n/mm) springs
3. Extreme track version with 571/857 (100/150 n/mm) springs
KW V3 For 997 Turbo
Front: Progressive, unknown final rate, possibly around 300
Rear: 970
For 997 GT3: 285 front/ 970 rear
For 997 C2S: 230 front /740 rear
Moton/JRZ For 997 Turbo (starting min. rates, stiffer if needed)
Front: 500-600
Rear: 700-800
Stock 996 GT3:
Front: 225 Linear
Rear: 550 Progressive
Stock 997 GT3:
Front: 257
Rear: 600
Moton for 997 Turbo from poster Webspoke
Front 750
Rear 1000
JRZ Pro for 996 Turbo from poster pwdrhound
Front 1400
Rear 1500
Here are some technical data of Bilstein Damptronic coilover for anyone interested:
Front: Helper 80 lb/in spring rate, 60mm length; main 340 lb/in rate, 151.5 mm length; ID 70mm for both helper and main springs.
Rear: Helper 80 lb/in rate, 60mm length; main 565 lb/in rate, 200 mm length; ID 70mm for both helper & main.
Source for spring rates below: Very extensive web research (ie no guarantee whatsoever of accuracy :-) ) and Excellence Magazine. GT3 rates are posted for comparison, and do keep in mind the GT3 is around 300 lbs lighter than Turbo, meaning if anything the Turbo's springs could/should be even stiffer than GT3's. Also, 997.2 Turbo's engine is lighter, making the increased spring rate noteworthy. Anyone with more info please correct as needed.
Spring Rate Unit conversion 100 lbf/in = 17.5 N/mm
Stock 997.1 Turbo:
Front: 206 lbf/in
Rear: 457 Linear
Stock 997.2 Turbo
Front: 206
Rear: 514 Progressive (342 initial, 514 final)
Bilstein Damptronic For 997 Turbo
Front: 340 Linear
Rear: 565 Linear
Helper springs (no contribution towards rate) 115 front, 145 rear
Bilstein Damptronic in my baby, 997.1 Turbo
(stiffer springs than Bilstein OEM)Front: 448
Rear: 600
Ohlins Road & Track For 997 Turbo
Front: 400
Rear: 685
TPC Tractive DDA for 997 Turbo
1. Road & Track version with 343/628 (60/110 n/mm) springs
2. Intermediate version with 457/742 (80/130 n/mm) springs
3. Extreme track version with 571/857 (100/150 n/mm) springs
KW V3 For 997 Turbo
Front: Progressive, unknown final rate, possibly around 300
Rear: 970
For 997 GT3: 285 front/ 970 rear
For 997 C2S: 230 front /740 rear
Moton/JRZ For 997 Turbo (starting min. rates, stiffer if needed)
Front: 500-600
Rear: 700-800
Stock 996 GT3:
Front: 225 Linear
Rear: 550 Progressive
Stock 997 GT3:
Front: 257
Rear: 600
Moton for 997 Turbo from poster Webspoke
Front 750
Rear 1000
JRZ Pro for 996 Turbo from poster pwdrhound
Front 1400
Rear 1500
Here are some technical data of Bilstein Damptronic coilover for anyone interested:
Front: Helper 80 lb/in spring rate, 60mm length; main 340 lb/in rate, 151.5 mm length; ID 70mm for both helper and main springs.
Rear: Helper 80 lb/in rate, 60mm length; main 565 lb/in rate, 200 mm length; ID 70mm for both helper & main.
Last edited by cannga; 03-12-2016 at 11:08 AM.