997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
#136
10-01-2008, 03:56 PM
I dont understand this post....6speedonline.com has many members with GT-R's and many members with 997tt's why don't we set something up and just find out for ourselves? Maybe a streets of willow run and a dragstrip run too?
#137
10-01-2008, 05:09 PM
I'm the notorious anti-GT-R. All the fanboys hate me.
Question for 997 TT owners, are MPSC a factory option on the TT here? Or just in Europe? Both or Neither?
If Porsche put non option tires on it, I cant back that. But the GT-R was still a ringer.
WHICH IS WHY NO FANBOYS CAN ANSWER WHY THE RING GT-R's ARE AS FAST AS ZONDA's AND ZR-1's ON THE STRAIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY ?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
When someone can offer a legit reason for that, I'll shutup. It better be good though, no B.S.
Question for 997 TT owners, are MPSC a factory option on the TT here? Or just in Europe? Both or Neither?
If Porsche put non option tires on it, I cant back that. But the GT-R was still a ringer.
WHICH IS WHY NO FANBOYS CAN ANSWER WHY THE RING GT-R's ARE AS FAST AS ZONDA's AND ZR-1's ON THE STRAIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY ?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
When someone can offer a legit reason for that, I'll shutup. It better be good though, no B.S.
Seriously, you should build your own website: www.porschefanboy.com
#138
10-01-2008, 05:24 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 
All right, this was bugging me, so I've run some more numbers, and I'm now pretty convinced that the Ring GTR record was set with a car with around 490 awhp.
Explanation as follows: The other recent Ring contender is the Viper ACR; ~3490 lbs with driver, ~517 rwhp, tons of downforce but the aero of a barn-door (likely .44 cd and ~1.88 m^2 based on a 192 mph top speed). We have video of that car with a clock in the corner vs the ZR1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08nxI...eature=related
The GTR has much better aero, so at some point it will catch and pass the ACR given a long enough straight, however if you run the numbers with the 420 rwhp GTR the GTR should accelerate slower until ~172 mph, a speed which it shouldn't be able to exceed on the bridge to bridge measurement. So the ACR should be faster down that straight by a pretty reasonable amount, as it will always be pulling harder, and much harder at lower speeds.
But it's not. I time the GTR .3 seconds faster than the ACR from bridge to bridge, which works out to roughly 2 mph faster average speed. Since the viper has a much better power to weight ratio it should be much faster at lower speeds, so the GTR would need lots more than stock power to pass it (by a lot) on the straight.
I see two other possible explanations, but I don't buy either of them.
First, if the GTR came off the corner with much more speed it could carry more speed under the first bridge and onto the straight. You can time this in the video too, though- I get 6.6 seconds from the point you can see down the straight until the first bridge for the ACR vs 7.2 seconds for the GTR. Now the view out the windshields is a little different, but not nearly that much- the ACR is clearly much faster off of that last corner and also hits the first bridge with significantly more speed.
The second possible explanation is wind. However the ZR1 and ACR times are pretty much what you'd expect relative to one another, and it seems very unlikely they both had the same head-wind on their best runs. Then there could be a tail wind for the GTR, but if you time the other record GTR run (the 7:38) it's only .1 second slower bridge to bridge. It's also very unlikely they both had the same tail wind...
So the GTR gets to the first bridge at a slower speed, but catches and passes the much more powerful ACR before the 2nd. How much power would it need to do that? If you give the GTR 490 awhp, the cross-over point at which it's faster than the ZR1 moves from ~172 mph down to ~146 mph, meaning the GTR is pulling harder for most of that straight, and can average a couple mph faster despite entering the straight slower. That's the same number I'd come up with to re-create its performance vs the ZR1 assuming no wind.
So waaay too much time spent on this, but I think I've convinced myself that there is almost no way that GTR was putting stock power levels out. My best estimate is ~490 whp or around 600 crank hp.
If anyone wants to shoot holes in the above feel free. The other videos I used are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TMXr2ReNhk
http://www.garage419.com/episode/419_20080710
-Pete
Explanation as follows: The other recent Ring contender is the Viper ACR; ~3490 lbs with driver, ~517 rwhp, tons of downforce but the aero of a barn-door (likely .44 cd and ~1.88 m^2 based on a 192 mph top speed). We have video of that car with a clock in the corner vs the ZR1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08nxI...eature=related
The GTR has much better aero, so at some point it will catch and pass the ACR given a long enough straight, however if you run the numbers with the 420 rwhp GTR the GTR should accelerate slower until ~172 mph, a speed which it shouldn't be able to exceed on the bridge to bridge measurement. So the ACR should be faster down that straight by a pretty reasonable amount, as it will always be pulling harder, and much harder at lower speeds.
But it's not. I time the GTR .3 seconds faster than the ACR from bridge to bridge, which works out to roughly 2 mph faster average speed. Since the viper has a much better power to weight ratio it should be much faster at lower speeds, so the GTR would need lots more than stock power to pass it (by a lot) on the straight.
I see two other possible explanations, but I don't buy either of them.
First, if the GTR came off the corner with much more speed it could carry more speed under the first bridge and onto the straight. You can time this in the video too, though- I get 6.6 seconds from the point you can see down the straight until the first bridge for the ACR vs 7.2 seconds for the GTR. Now the view out the windshields is a little different, but not nearly that much- the ACR is clearly much faster off of that last corner and also hits the first bridge with significantly more speed.
The second possible explanation is wind. However the ZR1 and ACR times are pretty much what you'd expect relative to one another, and it seems very unlikely they both had the same head-wind on their best runs. Then there could be a tail wind for the GTR, but if you time the other record GTR run (the 7:38) it's only .1 second slower bridge to bridge. It's also very unlikely they both had the same tail wind...
So the GTR gets to the first bridge at a slower speed, but catches and passes the much more powerful ACR before the 2nd. How much power would it need to do that? If you give the GTR 490 awhp, the cross-over point at which it's faster than the ZR1 moves from ~172 mph down to ~146 mph, meaning the GTR is pulling harder for most of that straight, and can average a couple mph faster despite entering the straight slower. That's the same number I'd come up with to re-create its performance vs the ZR1 assuming no wind.
So waaay too much time spent on this, but I think I've convinced myself that there is almost no way that GTR was putting stock power levels out. My best estimate is ~490 whp or around 600 crank hp.
If anyone wants to shoot holes in the above feel free. The other videos I used are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i15yVU8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TMXr2ReNhk
http://www.garage419.com/episode/419_20080710
-Pete
Good observation pete, please try the split times on the white signs on the right side of the track, it's VERY revealing. Use the first bridge as normal, but then use the signs as splits untill the second bridge, the last sign is the black traffic sign on the right. The GT-R is behind in split times to all of them then takes off (mind you this is about 160 MPH) past the ZR-1 and Zonda briefly before they have to catch back up to it. If I'm right, that's a cheat or edited video.
And as far as tail wind, the GT-R that ran 7:38 had the identical time on that back straight. IDENTICAL. So unless they got lucky twice, I'm not buying it.
Also
#140
10-01-2008, 05:39 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...ng-lap-record/
The GT-R's suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car?
This is a great point, why hasnt there been any tests of the Japanese model GT-R vs the USDM model to confirm the differences, how about a test with both GT-R's, a Z06 and a GT3?? There is a GT-R test done by every mag almost weekly, is it not obvious that the GT-R sells magazines and get tons of hits to your website? Fanboys outnumber enthusiasts 100000000000/1. You know the guys that never have, but will argue to the death about. BONZELITE!!!!!
The GT-R's suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car?
This is a great point, why hasnt there been any tests of the Japanese model GT-R vs the USDM model to confirm the differences, how about a test with both GT-R's, a Z06 and a GT3?? There is a GT-R test done by every mag almost weekly, is it not obvious that the GT-R sells magazines and get tons of hits to your website? Fanboys outnumber enthusiasts 100000000000/1. You know the guys that never have, but will argue to the death about. BONZELITE!!!!!
#141
10-01-2008, 06:27 PM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...ng-lap-record/
The GT-R's suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car?
This is a great point, why hasnt there been any tests of the Japanese model GT-R vs the USDM model to confirm the differences, how about a test with both GT-R's, a Z06 and a GT3?? There is a GT-R test done by every mag almost weekly, is it not obvious that the GT-R sells magazines and get tons of hits to your website? Fanboys outnumber enthusiasts 100000000000/1. You know the guys that never have, but will argue to the death about. BONZELITE!!!!!
The GT-R's suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car?
This is a great point, why hasnt there been any tests of the Japanese model GT-R vs the USDM model to confirm the differences, how about a test with both GT-R's, a Z06 and a GT3?? There is a GT-R test done by every mag almost weekly, is it not obvious that the GT-R sells magazines and get tons of hits to your website? Fanboys outnumber enthusiasts 100000000000/1. You know the guys that never have, but will argue to the death about. BONZELITE!!!!!
#142
10-01-2008, 07:01 PM
I been on this site reading alot about porsche and GTR. I guess every site is bias to which ever car forum it is. But its unbelieveable how bias is HEAVYCHEVY. A very nice guy on this forum with both cars take it out on the track and saying GTR is a better car. But NO, you guys dont admit to it and keep finding a reason, then another reason to say 997tt is better. That was a real world comparison too. I would believe a Real world comparison then a Porsche taking a GTR out and drive it slower to be on top again. Same can go the other way around. Theres many many test of independent and mag test that GTR beat 997tt. Those are the people are not from GTR or 997TT. I believe them.
As for this matter, you cant believe what they all say, if you do then your naive. comparing with all the independent test and mag test, the GTR is faster then what porsche stated. If porsche aint lieing then porsche driver dont know how to drive. 997tt is rear engine, compare to front engine of GTR.
Heavychevy, i think you need to get a LIFE. with the way you are on the forum, i doubt you have any real friends in real life. Even you do, those are fake friends that talk **** behind your back. So improve your personalities and be more OPEN MINDED. GL with your LIFE
As for this matter, you cant believe what they all say, if you do then your naive. comparing with all the independent test and mag test, the GTR is faster then what porsche stated. If porsche aint lieing then porsche driver dont know how to drive. 997tt is rear engine, compare to front engine of GTR.
Heavychevy, i think you need to get a LIFE. with the way you are on the forum, i doubt you have any real friends in real life. Even you do, those are fake friends that talk **** behind your back. So improve your personalities and be more OPEN MINDED. GL with your LIFE
#143
10-01-2008, 07:15 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551
LOL, I would take that as an insult....... If I could understand what you were saying.
#144
10-01-2008, 07:15 PM
#145
10-01-2008, 07:26 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Knoxville,Tennessee
Posts: 4,447
Rep Power: 214 I been on this site reading alot about porsche and GTR. I guess every site is bias to which ever car forum it is. But its unbelieveable how bias is HEAVYCHEVY. A very nice guy on this forum with both cars take it out on the track and saying GTR is a better car. But NO, you guys dont admit to it and keep finding a reason, then another reason to say 997tt is better. That was a real world comparison too. I would believe a Real world comparison then a Porsche taking a GTR out and drive it slower to be on top again. Same can go the other way around. Theres many many test of independent and mag test that GTR beat 997tt. Those are the people are not from GTR or 997TT. I believe them.
As for this matter, you cant believe what they all say, if you do then your naive. comparing with all the independent test and mag test, the GTR is faster then what porsche stated. If porsche aint lieing then porsche driver dont know how to drive. 997tt is rear engine, compare to front engine of GTR.
Heavychevy, i think you need to get a LIFE. with the way you are on the forum, i doubt you have any real friends in real life. Even you do, those are fake friends that talk **** behind your back. So improve your personalities and be more OPEN MINDED. GL with your LIFE
As for this matter, you cant believe what they all say, if you do then your naive. comparing with all the independent test and mag test, the GTR is faster then what porsche stated. If porsche aint lieing then porsche driver dont know how to drive. 997tt is rear engine, compare to front engine of GTR.
Heavychevy, i think you need to get a LIFE. with the way you are on the forum, i doubt you have any real friends in real life. Even you do, those are fake friends that talk **** behind your back. So improve your personalities and be more OPEN MINDED. GL with your LIFE
#146
10-01-2008, 08:00 PM
haha... guess thats two...
#148
10-01-2008, 08:10 PM
I been on this site reading alot about porsche and GTR. I guess every site is bias to which ever car forum it is. But its unbelieveable how bias is HEAVYCHEVY. A very nice guy on this forum with both cars take it out on the track and saying GTR is a better car. But NO, you guys dont admit to it and keep finding a reason, then another reason to say 997tt is better. That was a real world comparison too. I would believe a Real world comparison then a Porsche taking a GTR out and drive it slower to be on top again. Same can go the other way around. Theres many many test of independent and mag test that GTR beat 997tt. Those are the people are not from GTR or 997TT. I believe them.
As for this matter, you cant believe what they all say, if you do then your naive. comparing with all the independent test and mag test, the GTR is faster then what porsche stated. If porsche aint lieing then porsche driver dont know how to drive. 997tt is rear engine, compare to front engine of GTR.
Heavychevy, i think you need to get a LIFE. with the way you are on the forum, i doubt you have any real friends in real life. Even you do, those are fake friends that talk **** behind your back. So improve your personalities and be more OPEN MINDED. GL with your LIFE
As for this matter, you cant believe what they all say, if you do then your naive. comparing with all the independent test and mag test, the GTR is faster then what porsche stated. If porsche aint lieing then porsche driver dont know how to drive. 997tt is rear engine, compare to front engine of GTR.
Heavychevy, i think you need to get a LIFE. with the way you are on the forum, i doubt you have any real friends in real life. Even you do, those are fake friends that talk **** behind your back. So improve your personalities and be more OPEN MINDED. GL with your LIFE
Last edited by bbywu; 10-01-2008 at 08:12 PM.
#149
10-01-2008, 08:13 PM
Bobby why are you always stirring up the pot? I mean really doesn't it get old ? 
