997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
#331
10-06-2008, 12:05 PM
I guess at the end of the day:
Who cares who lied or cheated about what the real 'Ring times are.
The vast majority of available evidence suggests the GT-R is faster than 997TT around any track.
We should all be optimizing on subjective personal fun.
If you don't like the GT-R, don't buy one.
If you own one, please chime in with you subjective experience-- that's what I look for from forums.
I personally have found my GT-R to be a very fun track car and to be faster than me in my TT. I strongly suspect that most folks here (novice to intermediate track drivers) would come to a similar conclusion. I buy my cares to drive, not to obsess about whether an F1 driver is faster in my car versus some other car. That a fun curiousity, but not primary driver for me.
Great thing is that the TT is a better/faster car than 99.999% of the world's population will ever owen. So feel good about your luck, thank your lucky stars and mellow out a bit.
-Chris
Who cares who lied or cheated about what the real 'Ring times are.
The vast majority of available evidence suggests the GT-R is faster than 997TT around any track.
We should all be optimizing on subjective personal fun.
If you don't like the GT-R, don't buy one.
If you own one, please chime in with you subjective experience-- that's what I look for from forums.
I personally have found my GT-R to be a very fun track car and to be faster than me in my TT. I strongly suspect that most folks here (novice to intermediate track drivers) would come to a similar conclusion. I buy my cares to drive, not to obsess about whether an F1 driver is faster in my car versus some other car. That a fun curiousity, but not primary driver for me.
Great thing is that the TT is a better/faster car than 99.999% of the world's population will ever owen. So feel good about your luck, thank your lucky stars and mellow out a bit.
-Chris
The truth is Nissan has been gunning for Porsche for years, they found a recipe for a decent car at a decent PRICE point. Nissan would never say their car is equal to or better then a Porsche, they know better. Saying its faster on a given day is just ones ability to skew numbers. The truth is the majority of the world hates Porsches because they will never be able to buy one, or justify owning one. The magazines needed a real world car to put on their cover, build hype and hopefully sell some more magazines. If you sit back and watch the drama unfold its very entertaining. I highly doubt there is one TT owner on this board or in "real" life that gives two ****s about the GTR. It is very obvious if they wanted one, they could buy 2. Nissan will never have the heritage, the legacy or the status of the Pcar. They can try and try and in the end its all very good for the progress of the automobile.
I wonder how many GTR's will be dumped just prior to the warranty ending?
I wonder how many GTR's will be wrecked within 3 months of ownership?
I wonder how many GTR's will be purchased by men over the age of 35?
Boy racers can now move up from their civics, I look forward to seeing many of them on the road. At least they will push their cars, can't say the same for many of the exotic, garage queens
As far as NIssan lying or cheating, get over it! This is nothing new at all
#332
10-06-2008, 12:12 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 
^^Good Post^^^
#333
10-06-2008, 12:15 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551
#334
10-06-2008, 12:16 PM
Everything I wanted to say on this subject. I have no problem with Chris's enjoyment of his GT-R; however the multiple threads (some from Chris) and the behavior of some GT-R owners have been extremely regrettable. "Who cares about ring times?" Ok, maybe I don't either, except that it was brought up times and again by ***GT-R fans*** and more importantly, it is a lie.
Once again, a good reminder for one to be humble in victory so that it doesn't hurt as much when one falls flat on one's face.
Once again, a good reminder for one to be humble in victory so that it doesn't hurt as much when one falls flat on one's face.
I don't think anyone has any problem with Chrisn, or other GTR owners in general. The constant yapping of GTR fans on Porsche (and other marques) forums has been inexcusable though. Here is a summary of the 6speed/GTR experience:
Nissan developing the GTR. Aims at 911 turbo. Pre-pubescent GTR fans invade 6speed 911 turbo subforum and start posting smack despite non-existence of production cars.
Nissan starts bragging about ring times, fanz go wild and assail all corners of interweb car forums from Audi to Zonda. Discerning automotive enthusiasts see thru the BS and state disbelief to Nissan claims.
Nissan releases video of car turning unreal Nring time with magical tweaks from final 2 weeks of development - this after years of engineering. Fanbois ejaculate over the accomplishment, despite non-existence of cars in the US, smugly driving to school in their 3rd generation Civics.
One Lap Nissan GTR posts very unimpressive track and acceleration times, giving first clues of impending real-world performance. Magazines continue to test factory press ringers and the fallacy of the automotive Messiah continues.
Porsche finds that US production GTarrghhh is capable of decent but not superlative performance. Reports of GTR's breaking down and warranty voiding issues start to snowball. Fanz now retreating back to the GTR forums in disbelief - bitter, confused, disillusioned - and become upset that Porsche forums are now gloating on the implosion of the internet GTR hype.
Look around here and see if there are any people from Fchat, Audiworld, Aston Martin Owners Club needling folks here over the past few years. I think you will find that to get respect, you should be respectful.
Nissan developing the GTR. Aims at 911 turbo. Pre-pubescent GTR fans invade 6speed 911 turbo subforum and start posting smack despite non-existence of production cars.
Nissan starts bragging about ring times, fanz go wild and assail all corners of interweb car forums from Audi to Zonda. Discerning automotive enthusiasts see thru the BS and state disbelief to Nissan claims.
Nissan releases video of car turning unreal Nring time with magical tweaks from final 2 weeks of development - this after years of engineering. Fanbois ejaculate over the accomplishment, despite non-existence of cars in the US, smugly driving to school in their 3rd generation Civics.
One Lap Nissan GTR posts very unimpressive track and acceleration times, giving first clues of impending real-world performance. Magazines continue to test factory press ringers and the fallacy of the automotive Messiah continues.
Porsche finds that US production GTarrghhh is capable of decent but not superlative performance. Reports of GTR's breaking down and warranty voiding issues start to snowball. Fanz now retreating back to the GTR forums in disbelief - bitter, confused, disillusioned - and become upset that Porsche forums are now gloating on the implosion of the internet GTR hype.
Look around here and see if there are any people from Fchat, Audiworld, Aston Martin Owners Club needling folks here over the past few years. I think you will find that to get respect, you should be respectful.
#335
10-06-2008, 12:32 PM
Beep.beep.beep.beep.beep.beep.beep.beep.beep.bebeb ebebebebebebebebe.BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EP
I'm sorry that was my NFD (Nismo Fanboy Detector) hey! what do you know, it really works
Hello! My name is Mizuno, who are you ? a serious buyer or just a hitchiker looking for a ride ?
Go back to school son, chrisn is capable of responding to whoever he wants without the help of a PS3 owner since 2005.
What's the point of you pushing your face where your name has been brought up son ? be a good boy and find your way out, I'll mail you a free NFD, that way you'll be able to leave the house and smell the fresh air and make new friends instead of sitting at home waxing your framed R&T articles that has listed every GTR test.
Please support us and buy a 2009 Nissan GTR when you can afford one
Sayonara....
I'm sorry that was my NFD (Nismo Fanboy Detector) hey! what do you know, it really works
Hello! My name is Mizuno, who are you ? a serious buyer or just a hitchiker looking for a ride ?
Go back to school son, chrisn is capable of responding to whoever he wants without the help of a PS3 owner since 2005.
What's the point of you pushing your face where your name has been brought up son ? be a good boy and find your way out, I'll mail you a free NFD, that way you'll be able to leave the house and smell the fresh air and make new friends instead of sitting at home waxing your framed R&T articles that has listed every GTR test.
Please support us and buy a 2009 Nissan GTR when you can afford one
Sayonara....
Last edited by jaeS4; 10-06-2008 at 02:34 PM.
#336
10-06-2008, 12:36 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 I'm going to slightly disagree with this. First, the relatively few GT-Rs trapping at ~121.5 are in the 435 whp range, so those cars are probably a bit over 500 crank hp any way you cut it.
Second, the gearing of the GT-R actually doesn't really hurt it up top, only because the Nissan's HP curve is so flat. In each of the top three gears the nissan starts at 5200 RPM in the next gear after it shifts. But because of the flat hp curve it's making relatively close to peak power at that RPM, so spacing the gears closer wouldn't help it much at all.
This fact combines with the extremely low drag of the GT-R: the cdA (cd times area, or total drag) of the GTR is lower than the GT3, and much lower than the M6. So the GT-R that traps at the same speed as a GT3/ M6 should slightly walk away from it after 130, not the other way around.
That doesn't mean a ZR1 shouldn't run away from the GT-R through the same speed range.
Second, the gearing of the GT-R actually doesn't really hurt it up top, only because the Nissan's HP curve is so flat. In each of the top three gears the nissan starts at 5200 RPM in the next gear after it shifts. But because of the flat hp curve it's making relatively close to peak power at that RPM, so spacing the gears closer wouldn't help it much at all.
This fact combines with the extremely low drag of the GT-R: the cdA (cd times area, or total drag) of the GTR is lower than the GT3, and much lower than the M6. So the GT-R that traps at the same speed as a GT3/ M6 should slightly walk away from it after 130, not the other way around.
That doesn't mean a ZR1 shouldn't run away from the GT-R through the same speed range.
Yes, maybe the FEW GT-R's that can get anywhere near 121, are making more than 500 hp, and may pull the GT3 and M6. I'm not talking about the few, I'm talking about the norm, which for the GT-R is still going to be between 480 (113-114 mph trap) and 500(118-119 mph trap) hp.
You are also leaving out the additional drag (NOT AERO) caused by the AWD. Which has a huge impact after 100 mph. Likely enough to negate the aero advantage. The GT3 and M6 are both RWD and do not have to tussle with more moving parts in the front of the car. Or do you have sim for that too? The GT-R falls on it's face after 100 mph hence the reason it can be almost identical with the TT and Z06 to 100 and get beat by 1 and .5 seconds respectively to 120 mph in REAL tests. And that's mostly due to launch, faster shifts, and more aggressive gearing.
And you'll have to forgive me if I dont totally agree with the whole sim deal with regards to the M6 and GT3. If you had driven them, you'd know its very likely an M6 can pull a GT3 but with that sim thingy you'd think the M6 had no chance. There are too many variables that the sims seem to be missing.
#337
10-06-2008, 01:37 PM
I hate to dissapoint you BldGBloc but you will find more insults and uneducated blandering before you will ever get an intelligent response from the Nissan camp. All of the acceleration evidence supports the GT-R being a bit slower accelerating than the 997 TT. To the extent that you woud expect for the 200 extra lbs. I call b.s. on the claimed drivetrain loss, and the super bearings. The accleration suggests the car is 3800 lbs and 480-500 hp tops.
Consider the M6 with 500 hp and over 3900 lbs traps 118-120 with a slower transmission and totally different gearing. Subtract 100 lbs and 20 hp and it still points to the GT-R being in that range, there is nothing special in that area.
Weight to power:
M6 3900/500 = 7.8
GT-R 3800/480 = 7.91
GT3 3250/415 = 7.83
All of the above trap 118-120 and it's likely the M6 and GT3 could walk away after 130 due to the GT-R's gearing which combined with the tranny is the only reason the GT-R can keep up in the first place. Well the gearing is a liability after 100mph where the M6 gets stronger and the GT3 has great gearing for as well.
If people woud grasp the ease with which a Z06, ZR-1, Zonda can fly past and leave this car, then they would understand the problem with the GT-R being almost the fastest car we have video on during the back stretch at the nurburgring. And in certain sections it's much faster on that straight than ANY of the other cars (and I dont mean the corner exit)..........
There is overwhelming evidence to support Nissan cheating with the press cars (which will be destroyed) and ring prototypes..
And if anyone has been questioning my thoughts on Nissan's prolific media assault, consider that Nissan has got the press to rant and rave about the launch control when using it even once can void your drivetrain warranty and cost you 15-18k. BUT THAT'S NOT BEEN MENTIONED BY ONE MAGAZINE, ALL THEY DO IS QUOTE 0-60/QUARTER MILE TIMES THAT ARE NOT ACHIEVABLE WITHOUT VOIDING THE DRIVETRAIN WARRANTY. I'm telling you Nissan has played all of their enthusiasts.
Consider the M6 with 500 hp and over 3900 lbs traps 118-120 with a slower transmission and totally different gearing. Subtract 100 lbs and 20 hp and it still points to the GT-R being in that range, there is nothing special in that area.
Weight to power:
M6 3900/500 = 7.8
GT-R 3800/480 = 7.91
GT3 3250/415 = 7.83
All of the above trap 118-120 and it's likely the M6 and GT3 could walk away after 130 due to the GT-R's gearing which combined with the tranny is the only reason the GT-R can keep up in the first place. Well the gearing is a liability after 100mph where the M6 gets stronger and the GT3 has great gearing for as well.
If people woud grasp the ease with which a Z06, ZR-1, Zonda can fly past and leave this car, then they would understand the problem with the GT-R being almost the fastest car we have video on during the back stretch at the nurburgring. And in certain sections it's much faster on that straight than ANY of the other cars (and I dont mean the corner exit)..........
There is overwhelming evidence to support Nissan cheating with the press cars (which will be destroyed) and ring prototypes..
And if anyone has been questioning my thoughts on Nissan's prolific media assault, consider that Nissan has got the press to rant and rave about the launch control when using it even once can void your drivetrain warranty and cost you 15-18k. BUT THAT'S NOT BEEN MENTIONED BY ONE MAGAZINE, ALL THEY DO IS QUOTE 0-60/QUARTER MILE TIMES THAT ARE NOT ACHIEVABLE WITHOUT VOIDING THE DRIVETRAIN WARRANTY. I'm telling you Nissan has played all of their enthusiasts.
That being said, I don't really feel as though the burden of proof falls on either side of us fans to prove which company is lying. Furthermore, although we are all fans of any sports car, including myself, I would be lying if I said I didn't have more of an affinity for porsche, which I feel tends to show for some of us (on both sides) as bias opinions, Nissan and Porsche fans alike.
However, unless I do see some sort of support for lower friction bearings resulting in less awd drivetrain loss, I will have a hard time wrapping my belief around these numbers, especially a 7:29. I strongly feel as though this is solely due to marketing purposes.
#338
10-06-2008, 02:15 PM
Yes, maybe the FEW GT-R's that can get anywhere near 121, are making more than 500 hp, and may pull the GT3 and M6. I'm not talking about the few, I'm talking about the norm, which for the GT-R is still going to be between 480 (113-114 mph trap) and 500(118-119 mph trap) hp.
You are also leaving out the additional drag (NOT AERO) caused by the AWD. Which has a huge impact after 100 mph. Likely enough to negate the aero advantage. The GT3 and M6 are both RWD and do not have to tussle with more moving parts in the front of the car. Or do you have sim for that too? The GT-R falls on it's face after 100 mph hence the reason it can be almost identical with the TT and Z06 to 100 and get beat by 1 and .5 seconds respectively to 120 mph in REAL tests. And that's mostly due to launch, faster shifts, and more aggressive gearing.
You are also leaving out the additional drag (NOT AERO) caused by the AWD. Which has a huge impact after 100 mph. Likely enough to negate the aero advantage. The GT3 and M6 are both RWD and do not have to tussle with more moving parts in the front of the car. Or do you have sim for that too? The GT-R falls on it's face after 100 mph hence the reason it can be almost identical with the TT and Z06 to 100 and get beat by 1 and .5 seconds respectively to 120 mph in REAL tests. And that's mostly due to launch, faster shifts, and more aggressive gearing.
This takes out any of the variables you mention. Power and AWD drag are both already accounted for, as is weight. It's basically a drag war, and that's one the GT-R will win. Now if the GTR traps slower all bets are obviously off...
#339
10-06-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by eclou
Look around here and see if there are any people from Fchat, Audiworld, Aston Martin Owners Club needling folks here over the past few years. I think you will find that to get respect, you should be respectful.
Last edited by jaeS4; 10-06-2008 at 02:42 PM.
#340
10-06-2008, 03:16 PM
#341
10-06-2008, 03:26 PM
This thread has lived beyond it's useful life. Without more data, there's no point arguing.
I am going to take the GT-R to THill on friday. I'll let you guys know if the whole "Ring Scandal" diminishes my lap times or subjective enjoyment of the car.
-Chris
I am going to take the GT-R to THill on friday. I'll let you guys know if the whole "Ring Scandal" diminishes my lap times or subjective enjoyment of the car.
-Chris
#342
10-06-2008, 03:47 PM
I think Mizuno is guilty of taunting, but far worse precedent has been set here already by GTRfans who have come before him. Before things got really ugly here, long time members here even used to try to keep HC on a leash. Nowadays, we throw chum in the water to rile him up.
#343
10-06-2008, 03:56 PM
Oh no, Chris, PLEASE, I beg you... not another GT-R thread!!!
I think you are still missing the point that eclou, heavychevy, me, etc., are trying to tell you: We do NOT want to know, we do NOT need to know, we insist on NOT knowing, we do NOT care, about how you are enjoying the GT-R!!!
Please take it to the GT-R section.
I think you are still missing the point that eclou, heavychevy, me, etc., are trying to tell you: We do NOT want to know, we do NOT need to know, we insist on NOT knowing, we do NOT care, about how you are enjoying the GT-R!!!
Please take it to the GT-R section.
#345
10-06-2008, 04:03 PM
Go back to school son? Great, another ghetto wannabe B-boy. By the looks of your grammar i think you're the one that should go back to school, "son". BTW, i never owned a PS, i'm too old for that. In regards to your beeping sound, i think that's the alarm going off from your *** everytime you start "hatin" on other people. Personally, i'd rather have a regular 911 over the GTR regardless of what price and performance. As the old saying goes, "Porsche, there's no substitute".
Has anyone asked >YOU< to speak in behalf of other GTR owners or are you doing this on your own to stir P00P all over the forums ? are you expecting an owner to throw a GTR key at you for nutswinging ?? Try visiting the dealer, I'm sure they'll let you sit in one but without the keys.
I apologize for being rude
Mizuno-San (Chief engineer of the entire GTR project)