997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
#481
10-09-2008, 09:24 AM
^^ I'm just trying to prove a point that the GTR is under-rated and is probably making about 540hp if not more. Here's another one from C&D.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/20/l...ive-nissan-gt/
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column/(page)/1
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/20/l...ive-nissan-gt/
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column/(page)/1
#482
10-09-2008, 09:36 AM
Another response from Nissan: from Autoblog
Nissan to Porsche: Put the GT-R down before you hurt yourself:
Nissan Motor Company Ltd.
Global Communications
October 9, 2008
Background
The GT-R offers two different tire choices for customers:
From Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer and Chief Product Specialist for GT-R:
"We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars."
"Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy."
Conclusion
Due to the weather conditions at the Nurburgring, testing has now stopped and will resume around April 2009. Nissan will be back at the Nurburgring testing both the standard GT-R and upcoming additional models. We look forward to welcoming more members of the media to join us for these test sessions, consistent with our transparency at previous test sessions.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/09/n...hurt-yourself/
Nissan Motor Company Ltd.
Global Communications
October 9, 2008
Statement
NISSAN GT-R TEST PROCEDURES
In light of comments made recently in the media concerning the testing of the Nissan GT-R, it is clear that there are some important facts that were not accurately represented. Background
The GT-R offers two different tire choices for customers:
From Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer and Chief Product Specialist for GT-R:
"We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars."
"Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy."
Conclusion
Due to the weather conditions at the Nurburgring, testing has now stopped and will resume around April 2009. Nissan will be back at the Nurburgring testing both the standard GT-R and upcoming additional models. We look forward to welcoming more members of the media to join us for these test sessions, consistent with our transparency at previous test sessions.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/09/n...hurt-yourself/
#485
10-09-2008, 10:18 AM
Here's the article from Autoblog:
The GT-R/911 schoolyard scuffuffle continues, with Nissan looking at Porsche's test and basically saying "yer doin it wrong" to the German automaker. Chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno has graciously offered remedial driving classes to the driver for Porsche's lapping session where a GT-R was reportedly 25 seconds off Nissan's torrid time of 7 minutes, 29 seconds. Porsche had concluded that special tires must have been quietly fitted in a quest for 'Ring primacy. Porsche has yet to say anything other than "Ve don't sink zee car can do it in schtock form."
Not so, says Nissan. While a claim to the fastest production car on the Nürburgring might help prospective customers froth up some money, and owners are unlikely to try verifying the claim, Nissan is not interested in wasting time on one-offs, according to Mizuno. "For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant", says the engineer. The very tires that carried driver Toshio Suzuki on the 7:29 run are in the hands of Sumitomo, and Nissan would encourage interested parties to STFU and go look at the rolling stock. It seems Nissan thinks Porsche needs a little help figuring out the GT-R, to which the company will be happy to help. "We are aware that several automakers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation," Nissan says in its most recent rebuttal, "we would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R.
Not so, says Nissan. While a claim to the fastest production car on the Nürburgring might help prospective customers froth up some money, and owners are unlikely to try verifying the claim, Nissan is not interested in wasting time on one-offs, according to Mizuno. "For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant", says the engineer. The very tires that carried driver Toshio Suzuki on the 7:29 run are in the hands of Sumitomo, and Nissan would encourage interested parties to STFU and go look at the rolling stock. It seems Nissan thinks Porsche needs a little help figuring out the GT-R, to which the company will be happy to help. "We are aware that several automakers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation," Nissan says in its most recent rebuttal, "we would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R.
#486
10-09-2008, 10:43 AM
#487
10-09-2008, 11:39 AM
^^ I'm just trying to prove a point that the GTR is BOTH under-rated and over-rated and is probably making about 540hp if not more, but COULD ALSO BE LESS. Here's another one from C&D.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/20/l...ive-nissan-gt/
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...olumn/(page)/1
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/20/l...ive-nissan-gt/
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...olumn/(page)/1
#488
10-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 
Here are two examples of a GTR dyno test. First one is from Motor Trend where they estimated at least 507hp at the crank with 15% lost and 538hp with 20% lost, and that's at 430hp at the wheels. The second one was even higher at 457hp at the wheels which would translate to 571hp at the crank with 20% lost.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html
http://www.nissangtrclub.com/showthread.php?t=387
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html
http://www.nissangtrclub.com/showthread.php?t=387
20% loss???? Other than completely ignoring Nissans claim of only ~10% loss, 20% loss is rediculous for todays sports cars.
Explain then why the GT-R cant trap much if any higher than a GT3 and M6 which have similar power to weight ratios as a GT-R at 480-500 hp.
This mythical hp hasnt shown up anywhere. So there is NO support for the GT-R losing 20% through the drivetrain whatsoever given that the DSG tranny, from the VW to the Veyron etc, have all proved to lose less through the drivetrain than a normal manual.
Like I said, Motortrend are morons. THE GT-R DOES NOT LOSE 20% THROUGH THE DRIVETRAIN.
#489
10-09-2008, 12:07 PM
Saying the mean GT-R trap is 120 is utter B.S., and for multiple reasons. There are still more 114,115,116's than anything 120 and over. The range below 120 (-7) is much greater than the range over 120 (+2) so the affect that 1 114 has on the average would take 3 times as many 122's to break even. The mean wil also decline as more people start to realize they cant use the LC without huge risk and lose 2-3 mph each on the trap speeds from launching manually. This is not possible and you wont find an average for the GT-R like that anywhere but the magazines, which are still likely to be 119, with the lies of 124 etc.
Your analogy with the Viper and Miata is pointless, because if the Miata is faster, they simply have a better driver than the viper. If there is a better driver in the GT-R than the GT2 (with an actual person, or in effort) then can this test be really considered as legit???
They say they tested the GT-R or REs too. Which are supposed to be several seconds slower than the Dunops that were tested at the ring, and all other tests vs the GT2 that I know of. So even using that logic, there is no way the GT-R should be matching the lap.
So back to reality where the drivers should be the same guy driving with the same effort. 10mph translates to 1 of 2 things. Very amateurish driving where the driver over brakes, corners slow in both cars and stabs the throttle on exit which would benefit the GT-R because you can stab earlier,but the GT2 would just walk it on the straight because no momentum is being used. Or simply the GT2 had an equal to much faster exit speed, which translated on the straight, but dogged it in other parts of the track. Either way translates to sloppy driving.
Your analogy with the Viper and Miata is pointless, because if the Miata is faster, they simply have a better driver than the viper. If there is a better driver in the GT-R than the GT2 (with an actual person, or in effort) then can this test be really considered as legit???
They say they tested the GT-R or REs too. Which are supposed to be several seconds slower than the Dunops that were tested at the ring, and all other tests vs the GT2 that I know of. So even using that logic, there is no way the GT-R should be matching the lap.
So back to reality where the drivers should be the same guy driving with the same effort. 10mph translates to 1 of 2 things. Very amateurish driving where the driver over brakes, corners slow in both cars and stabs the throttle on exit which would benefit the GT-R because you can stab earlier,but the GT2 would just walk it on the straight because no momentum is being used. Or simply the GT2 had an equal to much faster exit speed, which translated on the straight, but dogged it in other parts of the track. Either way translates to sloppy driving.
So aside from your meaningless assumptions about driver capabilities you agree with me then. now your assumptions of the driver being bad are just that assumptions seeing as how over all the GTR is faster in most instances it is put up against an comparable Porsche. anything said after this point is just excuses i hear. mind you most of the excuses are coming from your side.
as far as the mean trap is concerned here is a nice compilation of properly running/driven GTR's
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=916
11.5 @ 121 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=824
11.5 @ 121.7 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=744
11.5@ 120 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=580
11.65 @ 118 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250
11.8 @ 121.7 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=561
11.6 @ 116 stock
Average trap for all these results = 119.833333 close enough to 120 id say. yes there are the occasional outliers but this is what would be considered good data as it is on neither extreme of the spectrum.
Hammad
Last edited by Sakred; 10-09-2008 at 12:11 PM.
#490
10-09-2008, 12:08 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551
Are you looking at what you're reading??? This only moreso prooves the GT-R isnt any more than 480-500 hp. Because that's exactly what the TT makes. And the TT is faster accelerating, due to less weight.
This does not suggest 540-571 hp. And there is no trap speed that's actually been run that suggests it either.
Heck, even the modded GT-R's are only making 540-560 or so CRANK hp. So how then can a stock one make as much power as the modded ones??
Not only that, but a mustang dyno is ~5% less than a Dynojet, which would put the GT-R @ 427 awhp on a Dynojet. And going by an actualy decent drivetrain loss(15%), the car makes 502. And going by Nissans' claim even less.
This does not suggest 540-571 hp. And there is no trap speed that's actually been run that suggests it either.
Heck, even the modded GT-R's are only making 540-560 or so CRANK hp. So how then can a stock one make as much power as the modded ones??
Not only that, but a mustang dyno is ~5% less than a Dynojet, which would put the GT-R @ 427 awhp on a Dynojet. And going by an actualy decent drivetrain loss(15%), the car makes 502. And going by Nissans' claim even less.
Last edited by heavychevy; 10-09-2008 at 12:12 PM.
#491
10-09-2008, 12:13 PM
20% loss???? Other than completely ignoring Nissans claim of only ~10% loss, 20% loss is rediculous for todays sports cars.
Explain then why the GT-R cant trap much if any higher than a GT3 and M6 which have similar power to weight ratios as a GT-R at 480-500 hp.
This mythical hp hasnt shown up anywhere. So there is NO support for the GT-R losing 20% through the drivetrain whatsoever given that the DSG tranny, from the VW to the Veyron etc, have all proved to lose less through the drivetrain than a normal manual.
Like I said, Motortrend are morons. THE GT-R DOES NOT LOSE 20% THROUGH THE DRIVETRAIN.
Explain then why the GT-R cant trap much if any higher than a GT3 and M6 which have similar power to weight ratios as a GT-R at 480-500 hp.
This mythical hp hasnt shown up anywhere. So there is NO support for the GT-R losing 20% through the drivetrain whatsoever given that the DSG tranny, from the VW to the Veyron etc, have all proved to lose less through the drivetrain than a normal manual.
Like I said, Motortrend are morons. THE GT-R DOES NOT LOSE 20% THROUGH THE DRIVETRAIN.
#492
10-09-2008, 12:15 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 In my original post you responded too i asked for specific data. you have failed to provide that data, and have further made meaningless assumptions of how the driver was bad or he had a cold or something of that sort.
So aside from your meaningless assumptions about driver capabilities you agree with me then. now your assumptions of the driver being bad are just that assumptions seeing as how over all the GTR is faster in most instances it is put up against an comparable Porsche. anything said after this point is just excuses i hear. mind you most of the excuses are coming from your side.
as far as the mean trap is concerned here is a nice compilation of properly running/driven GTR's
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=916
11.5 @ 121 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=824
11.5 @ 121.7 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=744
11.5@ 120 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=580
11.65 @ 118 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250
11.8 @ 121.7 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=561
11.6 @ 116 stock
Average trap for all these results = 119.833333 close enough to 120 id say. yes there are the occasional outliers but this is what would be considered good data as it is on neither extreme of the spectrum.
Hammad
So aside from your meaningless assumptions about driver capabilities you agree with me then. now your assumptions of the driver being bad are just that assumptions seeing as how over all the GTR is faster in most instances it is put up against an comparable Porsche. anything said after this point is just excuses i hear. mind you most of the excuses are coming from your side.
as far as the mean trap is concerned here is a nice compilation of properly running/driven GTR's
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=916
11.5 @ 121 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=824
11.5 @ 121.7 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=744
11.5@ 120 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=580
11.65 @ 118 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250
11.8 @ 121.7 stock
http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=561
11.6 @ 116 stock
Average trap for all these results = 119.833333 close enough to 120 id say. yes there are the occasional outliers but this is what would be considered good data as it is on neither extreme of the spectrum.
Hammad
HAHAHAAHAHA, you went and found all the fastest trap speeds you could find, AND THEY STILL DIDNT ADD UP TO 120 MPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just add the 114's and 115's in there and you already know what's going to happen. 117 or worse.
Thanks for making it easy for me to prove my point without having to link any threads, or do any searches.
#493
10-09-2008, 12:17 PM
Are you looking at what you're reading??? This only moreso prooves the GT-R isnt any more than 480-500 hp. Because that's exactly what the TT makes. And the TT is faster accelerating, due to less weight.
This does not suggest 540-571 hp. And there is no trap speed that's actually been run that suggests it either.
Heck, even the modded GT-R's are only making 540-560 or so CRANK hp. So how then can a stock one make as much power as the modded ones??
Not only that, but a mustang dyno is ~5% less than a Dynojet, which would put the GT-R @ 427 awhp on a Dynojet. And going by an actualy decent drivetrain loss(15%), the car makes 502. And going by Nissans' claim even less.
This does not suggest 540-571 hp. And there is no trap speed that's actually been run that suggests it either.
Heck, even the modded GT-R's are only making 540-560 or so CRANK hp. So how then can a stock one make as much power as the modded ones??
Not only that, but a mustang dyno is ~5% less than a Dynojet, which would put the GT-R @ 427 awhp on a Dynojet. And going by an actualy decent drivetrain loss(15%), the car makes 502. And going by Nissans' claim even less.
The final check was done using the Dynapack dyno. Here the GT-R measured a peak output of 452hp and 606Nm (448lb-ft) of torque at the hubs, which is reasonable given the higher reading expected due to the elimination of the tires and several internal variations in the way power is calculated.
#494
10-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 A 10% lost is unrealistic especially for a AWD system. BMW's are probably one of the most efficient drivetrains out there and they usually have about 10 to 12 percent lost. There is no support for the GTR losing only 10% either, but the 20% lost is more logical due to the performance the GTR is capable of. In regards to the trap speed, i have no idea. Your guess is as good as mine. The 457whp results from one of the dyno test is probably the best proof that the GTR is way under-rated, at 15% loss means it's making 538hp at the crank.
You seem like a cool guy, but man are you hardheaded.
How do you gather 20% drivetrain loss logically based on "performance the GT-R is capable of". That's not logical, mathmatical or has any relevance to drivetrain loss whatsoever, the beefiest of drivetrains is something like the T56 in the Viper, not only is it manual and less efficient, but it's heavy and VERY strong, something we cannot say for the GT-R. That is why it still only loses 18%.
In case you are missing the point, the GT-R having less drivetrain loss means it can trap higher with less power. But then you post it side by side with the TT making the exact same power. This directly supports the GT-R making the same power as the TT since the TT is faster accelerating because of less weight. Unless you are trying to say the TT is 538-571 hp too in which case there are plenty of tuners here who would laugh you out of town.
Everything you are posting is supporting my view. BMW's SMG (excluding SMG II dual clutch in the M3) drivetrain is not as efficient as a DSG, not as quick, not as light. So there is no reason whatsoever to think it would lose 8-10% more power through the drivetrain. NONE.
#495
10-09-2008, 12:32 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 What puzzles me though, is why hasn't any journalists taken any pictures of Porsche testing the GTR at the ring? There are always journals at the ring at any given time of the year. I'm sure they would've spotted Porsche testing a Nissan. Maybe Porsche hasn't even tested the GTR on the ring? Maybe Porsche is just pulling numbers out of thin air just like how HC is pulling out crap? Hmmmm.....911 turbo: 7:38 (looks familiar?). Think on that conspiracy theory P-car fanboys!!
Z07 how long do you think we are going to let you hang around before we sick a moderator on you and give you the boot. I can start a countdown for you if you like.