997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
#497
10-09-2008, 01:01 PM
HAHAHAAHAHA, you went and found all the fastest trap speeds you could find, AND THEY STILL DIDNT ADD UP TO 120 MPH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just add the 114's and 115's in there and you already know what's going to happen. 117 or worse.
Thanks for making it easy for me to prove my point without having to link any threads, or do any searches.
Just add the 114's and 115's in there and you already know what's going to happen. 117 or worse.
Thanks for making it easy for me to prove my point without having to link any threads, or do any searches.
Its really easy to ignore the evidence and make a joke out of it and provide none of your own. if in your terms the fastest traps are the ones that keep reoccurring then by definition they must not be the fastest. these are all real world time. i left mags out because if you count the 116 mph trap from the mags youl also have to count the 124. but either way I'm still waiting for anything tangible for you to produce assumptions and jokes should be left to the comedians.
Next excuse or deflection please
Hammad
#498
10-09-2008, 01:04 PM
Don't forget that the GTR also only puts power to the front wheels when the rears are slipping. When those sticky rears are gripping it diverts almost no power to the front wheels and thus has the transmission losses of a DSG equipped rwd car. In that context 10% seems reasonable.
#499
10-09-2008, 01:28 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 
I omitted the fastest and the slowest.
Its really easy to ignore the evidence and make a joke out of it and provide none of your own. if in your terms the fastest traps are the ones that keep reoccurring then by definition they must not be the fastest. these are all real world time. i left mags out because if you count the 116 mph trap from the mags youl also have to count the 124. but either way I'm still waiting for anything tangible for you to produce assumptions and jokes should be left to the comedians.
Next excuse or deflection please
Hammad
Its really easy to ignore the evidence and make a joke out of it and provide none of your own. if in your terms the fastest traps are the ones that keep reoccurring then by definition they must not be the fastest. these are all real world time. i left mags out because if you count the 116 mph trap from the mags youl also have to count the 124. but either way I'm still waiting for anything tangible for you to produce assumptions and jokes should be left to the comedians.
Next excuse or deflection please
Hammad
The 124 mph trap by C&D was a mistaken calculation adjustment for altitude. They gave the car a NA correction instead of FI. The result was 5 more mph difference in what the actual time should have been. They posted the result sheet on the website for everyone to see that they screwed up. It's been posted here and discussed at length.
So.........
You picked the fastest of the slow ones to use.
What about the 114's. I've posted links to those (2) here already, not going through that again and the 117.
Those are are enough to bring your average down to near what I said.
121
120
121
121
116
118
117
114
114
Average of 118. And all of the fast GT-R's are in the NE which are the fastest tracks in the country up into canada. Wanna bet what's going to happen when the average comes in for the whole country????
Two of them are at THE fastest track in the country (E-town, 400 ft below sea level) 120 mph and 117 mph. Which would be 117 and 114 most other places. Stock Z06 has trapped 128-129 there for reference. So you can use them for your average, but realistically, they are not that fast.
You better hope everyone can test in the NE, or else that average is going to take a dive when more people start getting to the strip from other places.
Either way, you couldnt dig up enough results to make a case for a average 120 mph trap. Face it, you lose.
#500
10-09-2008, 01:41 PM
Exclusive: Nissan officially slams Porsche cheat claim
October 9th 2008
[Nissan]Will show tyres and video as evidence, offers Porsche driving tips
Nissan is standing firm on its claim to the production car lap record at the Nurburgring despite a blistering attack from Porsche.
And it has the tyres to prove it.
The German sports car maker accused Nissan of using special semi-race tyres when it set the Nurburgring benchmark at 7 minutes 29 seconds in April but the Japanese company is now going public with the actual Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST CTT tyres used for the hot lap.
It is also offering video footage shot by the Japanese magazine 'Best Motoring" during the high-speed runs.
Nissan has also questioned the preparation of the customer GT-R used by Porsche for its in-house testing last month, where it claimed it could not get within 25 seconds of the Nissan time and that its 911 GT2 and Turbo were both quicker.
And, in a back-handed slap at Porsche, it has offered driving tips for anyone trying to get the best from a GT-R.
The man who led development of the Nissan supercar, chief engineer, Kazutoshi Mizuno, says the lap record car is a regular production GT-R.
“Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy," Mizuno says.
Nissan has taken nearly a week to assemble the evidence it says clearly refutes the Porsche claims.
It has even offered to show the actual tyres from the record run, which were taken back by Sumitomo in Japan for promotional work, to prove they are identical to the rubber fitted to production cars.
"It is clear that there are some important facts that were not accurately represented," Nissan says in its official press release on the Porsche claims.
It states that the record run, by former F1 driver Toshio Suzuki, was even compromised by carrying around 50 kilograms of data logging equipment supplied by Marelli and camera equipment.
Without attacking Porsche directly, it has also questioned everything from the tyres on the customer car its rival used to its preparation and the skill of the driver - who Porsche describes as one of its chassis test engineers.
Nissan says there are two types of tyre fitted to the GT-R, and the clear inference from its reference to the Bridgestone Potenza RE070R is that these were fitted to the Porsche-run GT-R and not as quick on a track as the Dunlops it uses.
It has also indirectly questioned the preparation of Porsche's car by referring to the run-in and service procedure, as well as the special technique for driving the all-wheel drive supercar.
"We are aware that several auto makers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation. Like all GT-R customers, we recommend that any auto maker buying a GT-R should follow the recommended run-in procedures, service schedules and maintenance to ensure the maximum performance from their car," Nissan says.
"In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R."
Nissan has gone into great detail on its work with the GT-R at the Nurburgring, including documenting its various track tests earlier this year and the method - the same one used by Sport Auto Magazine in Germany - it used to time the car.
And Mizuno even says the Nurburgring lap record was not the prime objective of the GT-R program.
“We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars," he says.
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/mo...eat_claim_gtr/
They didnt talk about the car running higher psi but at least the suspicion of stickier tires is out of the way
October 9th 2008
[Nissan]Will show tyres and video as evidence, offers Porsche driving tips
Nissan is standing firm on its claim to the production car lap record at the Nurburgring despite a blistering attack from Porsche.
And it has the tyres to prove it.
The German sports car maker accused Nissan of using special semi-race tyres when it set the Nurburgring benchmark at 7 minutes 29 seconds in April but the Japanese company is now going public with the actual Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST CTT tyres used for the hot lap.
It is also offering video footage shot by the Japanese magazine 'Best Motoring" during the high-speed runs.
Nissan has also questioned the preparation of the customer GT-R used by Porsche for its in-house testing last month, where it claimed it could not get within 25 seconds of the Nissan time and that its 911 GT2 and Turbo were both quicker.
And, in a back-handed slap at Porsche, it has offered driving tips for anyone trying to get the best from a GT-R.
The man who led development of the Nissan supercar, chief engineer, Kazutoshi Mizuno, says the lap record car is a regular production GT-R.
“Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy," Mizuno says.
Nissan has taken nearly a week to assemble the evidence it says clearly refutes the Porsche claims.
It has even offered to show the actual tyres from the record run, which were taken back by Sumitomo in Japan for promotional work, to prove they are identical to the rubber fitted to production cars.
"It is clear that there are some important facts that were not accurately represented," Nissan says in its official press release on the Porsche claims.
It states that the record run, by former F1 driver Toshio Suzuki, was even compromised by carrying around 50 kilograms of data logging equipment supplied by Marelli and camera equipment.
Without attacking Porsche directly, it has also questioned everything from the tyres on the customer car its rival used to its preparation and the skill of the driver - who Porsche describes as one of its chassis test engineers.
Nissan says there are two types of tyre fitted to the GT-R, and the clear inference from its reference to the Bridgestone Potenza RE070R is that these were fitted to the Porsche-run GT-R and not as quick on a track as the Dunlops it uses.
It has also indirectly questioned the preparation of Porsche's car by referring to the run-in and service procedure, as well as the special technique for driving the all-wheel drive supercar.
"We are aware that several auto makers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation. Like all GT-R customers, we recommend that any auto maker buying a GT-R should follow the recommended run-in procedures, service schedules and maintenance to ensure the maximum performance from their car," Nissan says.
"In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R."
Nissan has gone into great detail on its work with the GT-R at the Nurburgring, including documenting its various track tests earlier this year and the method - the same one used by Sport Auto Magazine in Germany - it used to time the car.
And Mizuno even says the Nurburgring lap record was not the prime objective of the GT-R program.
“We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars," he says.
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/mo...eat_claim_gtr/
They didnt talk about the car running higher psi but at least the suspicion of stickier tires is out of the way
Last edited by zosomoso; 10-09-2008 at 01:45 PM.
#501
10-09-2008, 02:05 PM
The 124 mph trap by C&D was a mistaken calculation adjustment for altitude. They gave the car a NA correction instead of FI. The result was 5 more mph difference in what the actual time should have been. They posted the result sheet on the website for everyone to see that they screwed up. It's been posted here and discussed at length.
So.........
You picked the fastest of the slow ones to use.
What about the 114's. I've posted links to those (2) here already, not going through that again and the 117.
Those are are enough to bring your average down to near what I said.
121
120
121
121
116
118
117
114
114
Average of 118. And all of the fast GT-R's are in the NE which are the fastest tracks in the country up into canada. Wanna bet what's going to happen when the average comes in for the whole country????
Two of them are at THE fastest track in the country (E-town, 400 ft below sea level) 120 mph and 117 mph. Which would be 117 and 114 most other places. Stock Z06 has trapped 128-129 there for reference. So you can use them for your average, but realistically, they are not that fast.
You better hope everyone can test in the NE, or else that average is going to take a dive when more people start getting to the strip from other places.
Either way, you couldnt dig up enough results to make a case for a average 120 mph trap. Face it, you lose.
So.........
You picked the fastest of the slow ones to use.
What about the 114's. I've posted links to those (2) here already, not going through that again and the 117.
Those are are enough to bring your average down to near what I said.
121
120
121
121
116
118
117
114
114
Average of 118. And all of the fast GT-R's are in the NE which are the fastest tracks in the country up into canada. Wanna bet what's going to happen when the average comes in for the whole country????
Two of them are at THE fastest track in the country (E-town, 400 ft below sea level) 120 mph and 117 mph. Which would be 117 and 114 most other places. Stock Z06 has trapped 128-129 there for reference. So you can use them for your average, but realistically, they are not that fast.
You better hope everyone can test in the NE, or else that average is going to take a dive when more people start getting to the strip from other places.
Either way, you couldnt dig up enough results to make a case for a average 120 mph trap. Face it, you lose.
Hammad
Last edited by Sakred; 10-09-2008 at 02:23 PM.
#502
10-09-2008, 02:54 PM
Nissan's rebuttal is persuasive
Guys, I am having fun reading the pages and pages of conspiracy theories, but consider this:
Nissan is a $20B (with a "B") market cap company. I find it totally implausible that they would be willing to so categorically confirm the 7:38 and 7:29 laps (and tires used, stock form, etc) unless true. Think about the consumer and securities liability, not to mention the potential damage to their brand.
HC & crew: give it up.
Anyway, I'm off to Thill tonight with my TT and my GT-R Ringer.
-Chris
Nissan is a $20B (with a "B") market cap company. I find it totally implausible that they would be willing to so categorically confirm the 7:38 and 7:29 laps (and tires used, stock form, etc) unless true. Think about the consumer and securities liability, not to mention the potential damage to their brand.
HC & crew: give it up.
Anyway, I'm off to Thill tonight with my TT and my GT-R Ringer.
-Chris
#503
10-09-2008, 03:07 PM
You seem like a cool guy, but man are you hardheaded.
How do you gather 20% drivetrain loss logically based on "performance the GT-R is capable of". That's not logical, mathmatical or has any relevance to drivetrain loss whatsoever, the beefiest of drivetrains is something like the T56 in the Viper, not only is it manual and less efficient, but it's heavy and VERY strong, something we cannot say for the GT-R. That is why it still only loses 18%.
In case you are missing the point, the GT-R having less drivetrain loss means it can trap higher with less power. But then you post it side by side with the TT making the exact same power. This directly supports the GT-R making the same power as the TT since the TT is faster accelerating because of less weight. Unless you are trying to say the TT is 538-571 hp too in which case there are plenty of tuners here who would laugh you out of town.
Everything you are posting is supporting my view. BMW's SMG (excluding SMG II dual clutch in the M3) drivetrain is not as efficient as a DSG, not as quick, not as light. So there is no reason whatsoever to think it would lose 8-10% more power through the drivetrain. NONE.
How do you gather 20% drivetrain loss logically based on "performance the GT-R is capable of". That's not logical, mathmatical or has any relevance to drivetrain loss whatsoever, the beefiest of drivetrains is something like the T56 in the Viper, not only is it manual and less efficient, but it's heavy and VERY strong, something we cannot say for the GT-R. That is why it still only loses 18%.
In case you are missing the point, the GT-R having less drivetrain loss means it can trap higher with less power. But then you post it side by side with the TT making the exact same power. This directly supports the GT-R making the same power as the TT since the TT is faster accelerating because of less weight. Unless you are trying to say the TT is 538-571 hp too in which case there are plenty of tuners here who would laugh you out of town.
Everything you are posting is supporting my view. BMW's SMG (excluding SMG II dual clutch in the M3) drivetrain is not as efficient as a DSG, not as quick, not as light. So there is no reason whatsoever to think it would lose 8-10% more power through the drivetrain. NONE.
I'm saying it's more logical because i think the GTR is making a lot more power than it is advertised, hence it is under-rated. It makes more sense for the GTR to do around 12 seconds in 1/4 mile with 540+ hp considering it's 3800lbs weight. The graph from MotorAuthority probably is not the best example, but they still stated that it is probably making around 507hp. Read both articles that i posted from MT and Nissangtrclub, they're all saying the GTR is way under-rated base on the performance that the GTR has shown so far. Not including the 7:29 Ring time.
#504
10-09-2008, 03:20 PM
Nissan USA won't fix anything if the owner is too stupid to understand that it was his mistake and not the cheap version of our DSG tranny.
I'm sure everyone will be getting a call soon, he's your only hope.
fanboys, do me a favour and spread the word ASAP!
Sayonara!
I'm sure everyone will be getting a call soon, he's your only hope.
fanboys, do me a favour and spread the word ASAP!
Sayonara!
#505
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551
Fanboys, showing up with a random set of tires is a form of proof? I would think Nissan's paranoia from the last time they got caught in a lie woud have led them to take preventative measures from getting called on it again. But there is no way to link the tires to the car at the time of the claimed run, so that's useless.
Besides, my problem has never been with the tires. I think the Porsche guy got it wrong. The GT-R's were ringers because of HP for sure, the tires may or may not have been special.
Lets see Nissan line up with a ZR-1 and Zonda and do a rolling race from ~100 - 180. If the GT-R is within one second of the other two, then we have some thing to go on. Heck lets get sport auto to bring a Zonda F and ZR-1 and see the differences in acceleration.
Sakred:
I didnt have to prove the mean for the GT-R trap speed isnt 120 mph, you did it for me, even with the best times you could muster, you still came up short, now add in the paltry realistic numbers and you're way short. There you go changing the subject again. You keep reverting back to something else. And using useless analogies as an explanation for why the british mags are intentionally winning tests for the GT-R, when the data is already showing otherwise without us even seeing all of it. Way to go.
Besides, my problem has never been with the tires. I think the Porsche guy got it wrong. The GT-R's were ringers because of HP for sure, the tires may or may not have been special.
Lets see Nissan line up with a ZR-1 and Zonda and do a rolling race from ~100 - 180. If the GT-R is within one second of the other two, then we have some thing to go on. Heck lets get sport auto to bring a Zonda F and ZR-1 and see the differences in acceleration.
Sakred:
I didnt have to prove the mean for the GT-R trap speed isnt 120 mph, you did it for me, even with the best times you could muster, you still came up short, now add in the paltry realistic numbers and you're way short. There you go changing the subject again. You keep reverting back to something else. And using useless analogies as an explanation for why the british mags are intentionally winning tests for the GT-R, when the data is already showing otherwise without us even seeing all of it. Way to go.
#506
10-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 Guys, I am having fun reading the pages and pages of conspiracy theories, but consider this:
Nissan is a $20B (with a "B") market cap company. I find it totally implausible that they would be willing to so categorically confirm the 7:38 and 7:29 laps (and tires used, stock form, etc) unless true. Think about the consumer and securities liability, not to mention the potential damage to their brand.
HC & crew: give it up.
Anyway, I'm off to Thill tonight with my TT and my GT-R Ringer.
-Chris
Nissan is a $20B (with a "B") market cap company. I find it totally implausible that they would be willing to so categorically confirm the 7:38 and 7:29 laps (and tires used, stock form, etc) unless true. Think about the consumer and securities liability, not to mention the potential damage to their brand.
HC & crew: give it up.
Anyway, I'm off to Thill tonight with my TT and my GT-R Ringer.
-Chris
Still doesnt explain abnormal acceleration, faster than your GT-R, faster than any GT-R we've seen unless it had a cobb access port, or mines tuning on it.
Fact of the matter is that the car had more power than any of the other GT-R's to run that straight the way it did. I'll give you that Nissan spent more time and tested better than anyone else, but that car WAS NOT STOCK.
#507
10-09-2008, 04:24 PM
Fanboys, showing up with a random set of tires is a form of proof? I would think Nissan's paranoia from the last time they got caught in a lie woud have led them to take preventative measures from getting called on it again. But there is no way to link the tires to the car at the time of the claimed run, so that's useless.
Besides, my problem has never been with the tires. I think the Porsche guy got it wrong. The GT-R's were ringers because of HP for sure, the tires may or may not have been special.
Lets see Nissan line up with a ZR-1 and Zonda and do a rolling race from ~100 - 180. If the GT-R is within one second of the other two, then we have some thing to go on. Heck lets get sport auto to bring a Zonda F and ZR-1 and see the differences in acceleration.
Sakred:
I didnt have to prove the mean for the GT-R trap speed isnt 120 mph, you did it for me, even with the best times you could muster, you still came up short, now add in the paltry realistic numbers and you're way short. There you go changing the subject again. You keep reverting back to something else. And using useless analogies as an explanation for why the british mags are intentionally winning tests for the GT-R, when the data is already showing otherwise without us even seeing all of it. Way to go.
Besides, my problem has never been with the tires. I think the Porsche guy got it wrong. The GT-R's were ringers because of HP for sure, the tires may or may not have been special.
Lets see Nissan line up with a ZR-1 and Zonda and do a rolling race from ~100 - 180. If the GT-R is within one second of the other two, then we have some thing to go on. Heck lets get sport auto to bring a Zonda F and ZR-1 and see the differences in acceleration.
Sakred:
I didnt have to prove the mean for the GT-R trap speed isnt 120 mph, you did it for me, even with the best times you could muster, you still came up short, now add in the paltry realistic numbers and you're way short. There you go changing the subject again. You keep reverting back to something else. And using useless analogies as an explanation for why the british mags are intentionally winning tests for the GT-R, when the data is already showing otherwise without us even seeing all of it. Way to go.
Hammad
#508
10-09-2008, 04:56 PM
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/mo...eat_claim_gtr/
So to recap;
Porsche: You cheated!
Nissan: You suck at driving!
Interesting... Now we just need show down between the two companies on the ring. Invite every media and have a fight night. Can you say Pay-Per-View?
So to recap;
Porsche: You cheated!
Nissan: You suck at driving!
Interesting... Now we just need show down between the two companies on the ring. Invite every media and have a fight night. Can you say Pay-Per-View?
Last edited by Akira; 10-09-2008 at 05:03 PM.
#509
10-09-2008, 05:18 PM
So true, all this bull crap from Nissan is for naught, only thing that will do is a shoot out. I'm sure that's what Porsche was setting into motion. Pull one off the floor somewhere and show us it will run a 7:29.
We need to put spies on all the GTR dealers now. I bet they'll have all their enginners running around late at night turning the showroom GTR's into ringers so whatever is picked, it will run a 7:29.
We need to put spies on all the GTR dealers now. I bet they'll have all their enginners running around late at night turning the showroom GTR's into ringers so whatever is picked, it will run a 7:29.
#510
10-09-2008, 06:36 PM
