Originally Posted by Mizuno

Originally Posted by ALPINE_997

I look like I could read Japanese but no go..

Originally Posted by heavychevy

Point 1 is, like I've told you all along, is that all it would take for the GT-R to be over the threshold is a tune. And there are lots of GT-R's with tunes running around without slipping clutches.

The other point is that Amuses car is not WHP, again duely noted.

The lifespan of a clutch is such that if you put it the power so close to the threshold, the clutch wont last for long. More power = less clutch life. No way Nissan would put the clutch limit 60 and 25 hp over the base hp. It wouldnt last to the end of the warranty and cost owners tons in replaced clutches.

Like I keep saying, there are lots of fingers pointing at 480-500 hp and only your determination and motor trends idiocracy that say 540-575 hp. Not even the GT-R owners think it's making that much power. Most feel it's pretty docile, and "can drink a soda" while accelerating.

It's getting more obvious by the minute.

Originally Posted by heavychevy

I've seen NASA nationals quality drivers in the GT-R, and been on track with them, so I'm not quite as all mag racer as you've misjudged me to be. Of course, my car is not stock and I never saw the GT-R once I got on track, but I've had my same car up against GT3's and it took a lot more effort to leave them than it did that GT-R.

I'm sure you have a lot of experience, notice I never once said anything about that. I never discredited anything you said about track times, in fact I praise you often for being the only one with something worthwhile to say. Read my last post, still giving you credit for changing my perspective on the GTR vs TT battle...
The whole point of my previous post was to point out why everyone claiming "MAGAZINE RACER!!" every time someone disagrees with something is stupid. In principle everyone is to some degree a mag racer/fanboy, it's called being human and having feelings. Just because they are not aligned with yours doesn't mean it's stupid.
I simply used the GTR to point that out, much like you did before...weird.


Have you been on track with any of the aforementioned cars ever??? I've been on track with almost all of them, and have a lot of track time to draw my conclusions from. From pro's, to good DE drivers, to former pros, to international 24 hours of Nurburgring drivers, and have very few point by's to my name.

I don't have that much experience obviously, but to answer your question. Yes, I have been on the track with a GTR against TTs and GT3s modded and stock, among a plethora of other cars. I joined my friend at a PCA Ohio Track day, where my experience of being with multiple Pcar owners in respect to a GTR comes from. I can tell you it goes down a lot different than it does here, and again that's my point.

Of course you will call BS, I can post pictures if you'd like...also I wouldn't keep asking you if you had driving experience in the GTR, if I didn't. That doesn't make much sense now does it? Oh wait, that's what I was calling you members out for. It all comes together now...


I shy away from the mag times as much as possible, but until we have some more direct comparisons, same day same driver, no media, with a ADVANCED driver, I keep much of that to myself, because it's still not all that accurate and I have more pride than to take any pride in it.

Again, the reason why I rarely attack your arguments against the GTR. Good ahead and look. I may provide counterpoints to why the GTR may keep up but I 100% agree with you saying the Zonda/ZR-1 is faster on the straights, and until someone releases telemetry or does a giant head to head, it's all speculation.
I get where you are coming from and again, respect you perspectives a great deal, but you asking members on the board to provide the data is dumb argument...


I havent told you who I am, so why would you care? Sounds a bit insecure to me....... Fallacies? Interesting, I havent seen you show any such thing. Yet you being here and claiming to be neutral is a fallacy in and of itself. And better yet to claim to be a bigger Porsche fan than Nissan.

Again, still agree with most of your points, just generally pointed out the fallacy of using the magazine racer argument and why it is pointless. Yes it was skewed towards you considering you are making most of the argument, but nonetheless it was directed at all members using that idea as a basis to discuss this...

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH, lets do a poll and see what the real Porsche enthusiasts think.

You want to poll people who don't know me to see what they think of me just because I say I don't care about the TT vs GTR like you do?

Again please stop projecting.

Just because I drive a G35, doesn't mean I think the GTR is the end game for me. If you knew me, you'd know how much I love the GT3/GT2, and obviously CGT among the regular Carreras and the Cayman. Not to mention respect the brand for being the top in JD power reliability since the new millenium.
Ok you got me, I'm not a fan of the Boxter.

BS you say?

Ok recent (2 weeks ago) example...
One of my friend's dad is a radiologist looking to get a new car after his C6 vette, he wanted a GTR, after discussion and having driven the GTR, I steered him towards a 911 C4/C2S because he didn't want to spend above 100k for a GT3 which I pleaded him to buy and still am...so please, do tell me a bit more about how I like Nissan more.

Aside from the GTR/350z (which both are *** ugly) why the hell would I like Nissan over Porsche. For what the Sentra SE-R?? OMGG!


The bickering is part of what makes forum life fun, and you seem to be able to justify and sugarcoat your roid rage rants once someone points them out. I'm just giving the 997 TT section a chance to vent their frustrations based on some good humor at Nissan's expense. Not a life crusade, just a hobby.

I think that discussion is fun and bickering is fun in person, but online it has gotten ridiculous IMO. In person people would bicker and laugh and get over it. Online it drags out to 40 pages and largely the same arguments on page 40 as on page 20, you think that's productive because you are on those pages and all in between and before and after...you like to hear yourself type.

Despite that, I credit you a lot with good things you say. You cannot do that for anyone else, I'm not even saying me. Everyone else is a raging idiot to disagree even in cases where it is pure speculation. That isn't a discussion that's ridiculous.

You say hobby, I maintain obsession...largely poking fun at you, but considering how much time you spend on here, maybe a bit serious?


When I see you jumping on NAGTROC and bashing them for the exact same thing, I'll listen. Until then your words are meaningless to me.

I'm on here for 6 speed different reasons, no need jump on NAGTROC to annoy them because you think it'd be balanced. I can find better use of my free time.


But like I always say, ntil you can balance out your arguement, which is clearly one sided (and on foreign turf no less), and show yourself a reputable member of this forum, your demands and ctiticisms wont gain much ground.

Answered already. Not trying to argue for the GTR.
Since the early days of the GTR vs TT battle I did make biased statements in favor of the GTR that you shot down and I acknowledged it and actually changed my perspective on the matter. Still crediting you for it...though you don't need it.

I made one GTR thread on this forum, and it was regarding the tires Nissan used and why I thought it was a bit shady ie ANTI-NISSAN or neutral at worst.
I was met with hostility for no reason, so forgive me for now considering some of the P-car owners, unnecessarily hostile and not one bit logical. This is why I call some of them out for trying to make stupid arguments...not all, as I like more members here than I dislike.


It's productive in that it keeps the GT-R post count outside of the GT-R section down, check this section now. Two weeks ago before this thread came about, there were 5 GT-R threads in the first 7 topics. Now there is one in the first few pages. Goal accomplished.

That has nothing to do with the new GTR forum section eh...? NO WAY that could account for a decrease in GTR threads in this section...no way...
Another solid use of logic...again taking credit for quelling the GTR uprising yourself, while discounting the glaring flaw in your logic.
Lol.


Capital B Capital S you are full of it and you jump in here with your GT-R rants bashing all the guys who favor Porsche on a Porsche forum. Go figure. You couldnt sell that lie to the fanboys that Nissan has duped.

Uh, learn2read? My first post was aimed at EVERYONE bickering and my posts since are not one bit pro-GTR. I made fun of you for some things and the GTR fanboys for others...go ahead and look.

And again, please stop projecting your obsessive degree of caring about something so irrelevant onto me. I like competition and am curious to see what happens, I long ago gave up truly caring who comes out on top, in this current world this isn't exactly important in the least, but a good distraction nonetheless.

Save for a lie detector, I don't think you'd be convinced I don't favor the GTR. My level of apathy towards the outcome of something so trivial as this is about as high as your level of obsession that Porsche wins.

Keep trying to convince yourself I'm some overzealous fanboy, it helps to validate your ridiculous level of devotion to some car brand...I know.
I still maintain there are more important things...

Originally Posted by jaeS4

It probably doesn't feel that fast because it's a fat pig, therefore it would require much more power to keep up with the 997tt. It can't possibly has the same power and have similar performance with the 997tt, it doesn't add up. You keep going back to Motor Trend's dyno results and discrediting but you don't have any proof, and i've shown you three results that are showing that the GTR is under-rated. Are you telling me that all three are wrong and you are right and you know better!? Are you serious? Since the GTR came out, everyone is saying that the GTR is under-rated, especially when they did 7:38 in The Ring and after Edmunds tested it and did some ridiculous 0-60 and 1/4 mile. And the independent dyno test that i showed you from a private owner indicated the same thing. You are the only one that is saying that the GTR is not under-rated.

Originally Posted by StradaONE8

The whole point of my previous post was to point out why everyone claiming "MAGAZINE RACER!!" every time someone disagrees with something is stupid. In principle everyone is to some degree a mag racer/fanboy, it's called being human and having feelings. Just because they are not aligned with yours doesn't mean it's stupid.
I simply used the GTR to point that out, much like you did before...weird.

No one, at least that I've seen, has been crying mad racer for some time now. And if so, it's because guys cant formulate an opinion based on outside criteria that's not media influenced because they have no such experience.




I don't have that much experience obviously, but to answer your question. Yes, I have been on the track with a GTR against TTs and GT3s modded and stock, among a plethora of other cars. I joined my friend at a PCA Ohio Track day, where my experience of being with multiple Pcar owners in respect to a GTR comes from. I can tell you it goes down a lot different than it does here, and again that's my point.
What goes down different? The people relating to each other? Many of us could have told you that before you got there. I've argued with several corvette guys and we are just as cool as it gets when we get to the track together. The track is more about having fun and staying safe, not arguing mag times and who should be faster than whom.

Of course you will call BS, I can post pictures if you'd like...also I wouldn't keep asking you if you had driving experience in the GTR, if I didn't. That doesn't make much sense now does it? Oh wait, that's what I was calling you members out for. It all comes together now...


Riding along with a firend at a DE doesnt fit my description of experience. When you own one, and put it through it's paces, with very good drivers in other makes and models, get back to me.

Again, the reason why I rarely attack your arguments against the GTR. Good ahead and look. I may provide counterpoints to why the GTR may keep up but I 100% agree with you saying the Zonda/ZR-1 is faster on the straights, and until someone releases telemetry or does a giant head to head, it's all speculation.
I get where you are coming from and again, respect you perspectives a great deal, but you asking members on the board to provide the data is dumb argument...

I havent asked anyone here to provide data, I said telemetry or ban, meaning Nissan provides telemetry to clear the air, or ban all the fanboys. I'm not stupid enough to try and get someone here, most of which are arguing dont have a GT-R, to get inside Nissan information.


I havent told you who I am, so why would you care? Sounds a bit insecure to me....... Fallacies? Interesting, I havent seen you show any such thing. Yet you being here and claiming to be neutral is a fallacy in and of itself. And better yet to claim to be a bigger Porsche fan than Nissan.

Again, still agree with most of your points, just generally pointed out the fallacy of using the magazine racer argument and why it is pointless. Yes it was skewed towards you considering you are making most of the argument, but nonetheless it was directed at all members using that idea as a basis to discuss this...

Understood.

You want to poll people who don't know me to see what they think of me just because I say I don't care about the TT vs GTR like you do?

No, to see if anyone thinks based on your post content that your a bigger Porsche fan than Nissan like you claimed. That is obviously not true, no need in trying to argue that.

Again please stop projecting.

Just because I drive a G35, doesn't mean I think the GTR is the end game for me. If you knew me, you'd know how much I love the GT3/GT2, and obviously CGT among the regular Carreras and the Cayman. Not to mention respect the brand for being the top in JD power reliability since the new millenium.
Ok you got me, I'm not a fan of the Boxter.

BS you say?

Yes, BS I say. If you know forums you know that some guys will have unrealistic bias and attachments to whatever car they own and what forum they are on. And should expect that because it's consistent everywhere. But you bash guys on their own forum for finding reasons to prefer what they have. Bass ackwards and pointless IMO. And a guy who had such a passion for Porsches isnt as likely to take such a stance against Porsche OWNERS. Maybe that's the difference, when you buy one, your position may change.




Ok recent (2 weeks ago) example...
One of my friend's dad is a radiologist looking to get a new car after his C6 vette, he wanted a GTR, after discussion and having driven the GTR, I steered him towards a 911 C4/C2S because he didn't want to spend above 100k for a GT3 which I pleaded him to buy and still am...so please, do tell me a bit more about how I like Nissan more.

Whoo hoo, you want a cookie? Too many different criteria to take anything from that. I've encouraged one of my buddies to get one as well. And you know where I stand. So excuse me if that doesnt carry much weight with me.

I think that discussion is fun and bickering is fun in person, but online it has gotten ridiculous IMO. In person people would bicker and laugh and get over it. Online it drags out to 40 pages and largely the same arguments on page 40 as on page 20, you think that's productive because you are on those pages and all in between and before and after...you like to hear yourself type.

Coming from the guy that has me repsonding to essays every post.


I'm on here for 6 speed different reasons, no need jump on NAGTROC to annoy them because you think it'd be balanced. I can find better use of my free time.

Like trolling 6speed???? Because that's exactly what you're doing.



But like I always say, ntil you can balance out your arguement, which is clearly one sided (and on foreign turf no less), and show yourself a reputable member of this forum, your demands and ctiticisms wont gain much ground.

Answered already. Not trying to argue for the GTR.
Since the early days of the GTR vs TT battle I did make biased statements in favor of the GTR that you shot down and I acknowledged it and actually changed my perspective on the matter. Still crediting you for it...though you don't need it.

I made one GTR thread on this forum, and it was regarding the tires Nissan used and why I thought it was a bit shady ie ANTI-NISSAN or neutral at worst.
I was met with hostility for no reason, so forgive me for now considering some of the P-car owners, unnecessarily hostile and not one bit logical. This is why I call some of them out for trying to make stupid arguments...not all, as I like more members here than I dislike.


It's productive in that it keeps the GT-R post count outside of the GT-R section down, check this section now. Two weeks ago before this thread came about, there were 5 GT-R threads in the first 7 topics. Now there is one in the first few pages. Goal accomplished.

That has nothing to do with the new GTR forum section eh...? NO WAY that could account for a decrease in GTR threads in this section...no way...
Another solid use of logic...again taking credit for quelling the GTR uprising yourself, while discounting the glaring flaw in your logic.
Lol.


Capital B Capital S you are full of it and you jump in here with your GT-R rants bashing all the guys who favor Porsche on a Porsche forum. Go figure. You couldnt sell that lie to the fanboys that Nissan has duped.

Uh, learn2read? My first post was aimed at EVERYONE bickering and my posts since are not one bit pro-GTR. I made fun of you for some things and the GTR fanboys for others...go ahead and look.

I canBS you all day with comments like this. You may have tried to balance your attacks here recently because I called you on it, but it's pretty clear to everyone where you stand, and that is on a hill bashing all the Porsche OWNERS that are in this thread.


Keep trying to convince yourself I'm some overzealous fanboy, it helps to validate your ridiculous level of devotion to some car brand...I know.
I still maintain there are more important things...

Originally Posted by Mizuno

It gets better

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25504


0 to 60 = 4.1s Not slow
1/4 mile = 12.5 Not slow


Mommy I want my PS3 back, could you please tell Ryan to return it right f***ing NOW!

Originally Posted by heavychevy

The Bugatti Veyron is fat, the M6 is fat, a lot of AMG's are fat, and none of them "feel" slow.

It doesnt not require much more hp to keep up with the 997 TT. #1 It's behind and #2 it has DSG, better aero, less drivetrain loss, more aggressive low end gearing. All of which keep it in the runnings with a sub 200 lbs weight difference with the Tiptronic Porsche TT. I've explained that already.

I've also already told you your results are based on nonsense drivetrain losses, how many times do I have to tell you that????

Not everyone thinks their overrated, only the simpletons who havent looked to see that it's not true. 0-60 has a lot less to do with power, it's about traction and gearing. Hence the reason the 997 TT and GT-R are some of the fastest 0-60 cars there are, and arent the best in weight/power ratios.

As far as the 1/4 mile time Edmunds ran, it was in cool weather at 0 ft elevation. The best conditions you can get, and it trapped 121. Whoop tee do. Like I've told you OVER AND OVER, there are cars with similar weight/power (when the GT-R is 480-500) that run those same trap speeds.

WHY CANT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? IT'S NOT VERY HARD.

I keep showing you solid information and you keep talking about people saying it's underrated and using a asinine drivetrain loss figure to try and make sense of it.

And finally who in the hell makes a sports car 575 hp and the clutch limit 600? That would be the dumbest thing ever. You could get over the hp limit with race gas and and exhaust without a tune. And all the Cobb,Amuse/Mines modded cars are just fine, after having added 50-75 hp, which would put ALL OF THEM over the top of the clutch limit with your hp figures.

You havent even gotten any support from your fellow fanboys on this one. What does that tell you??? Obviously nothing.

Originally Posted by Prche951

that link coupled with the tranny link on the same forum tells us all that the REAL GTR owners are not happy at all that their cars are not performing to what is advertised. Nearly a full second difference in 1/4 mile time and a half second to 60 is a gigantic lie.

I guess the only guys satisfied with the GTR are the PS3 crowd and owners who have Garage queens...

Originally Posted by Prche951

that link coupled with the tranny link on the same forum tells us all that the REAL GTR owners are not happy at all that their cars are not performing to what is advertised. Nearly a full second difference in 1/4 mile time and a half second to 60 is a gigantic lie.

I guess the only guys satisfied with the GTR are the PS3 crowd and owners who have Garage queens...

Originally Posted by heavychevy

No one, at least that I've seen, has been crying mad racer for some time now. And if so, it's because guys cant formulate an opinion based on outside criteria that's not media influenced because they have no such experience.

Mag racer/PS3 fanboy is still thrown around pretty often even if indirectly, but I see where you're coming from.
It is still a weak argument for anyone to make because no one can drive everything, but everyone is still entitled to an opinion even if it is faulty. You often prove them wrong or provide reasons why, but some others do not, I made a general comment about it, you took it very personally...


What goes down different? The people relating to each other? Many of us could have told you that before you got there. I've argued with several corvette guys and we are just as cool as it gets when we get to the track together. The track is more about having fun and staying safe, not arguing mag times and who should be faster than whom.

Just the demeanor in which people carry out discourse. You are incredibly knowledgeable and I have always said that, but you are overbearing and obsessive. Not to mention you dismiss others to the point where there is no discussion if it's not your way. Obviously people who agree with you wont find it that way.

Riding along with a firend at a DE doesnt fit my description of experience. When you own one, and put it through it's paces, with very good drivers in other makes and models, get back to me.

Driven it, and driven it hard. Won't track someone elses brand new car...doesn't mean I cant get a sense of how fast it is and how it performs from inside of it.
I observed many instructors there that rode along/against in the same session commenting on its capability against stock and/or modded cars. There you go dismissing...

I havent asked anyone here to provide data, I said telemetry or ban, meaning Nissan provides telemetry to clear the air, or ban all the fanboys. I'm not stupid enough to try and get someone here, most of which are arguing dont have a GT-R, to get inside Nissan information.

Fair enough. Seemed like you kept taunting others for it...


No, to see if anyone thinks based on your post content that your a bigger Porsche fan than Nissan like you claimed. That is obviously not true, no need in trying to argue that.

Just because I don't have the same enthusiasm for Porsche that you do, doesn't mean I lean towards Nissan, you can like something without be nucking futs about it...I suggest you try it sometime.
And again, look at most of my posts, they are in the detailing section and with that I also contribute to sponsors of the board. Most other comments are compliments to owners cars and what not. Maybe 15% is on GTR threads, and most are rebuttals to members like you, not about the GTR itself.

Again please stop projecting.

Yes, BS I say. If you know forums you know that some guys will have unrealistic bias and attachments to whatever car they own and what forum they are on.

Lol, they are just cars...
Just because Nissan makes my current car is a function of me liking the car, not the whole entity of Nissan...which I explained already.

And should expect that because it's consistent everywhere. But you bash guys on their own forum for finding reasons to prefer what they have. Bass ackwards and pointless IMO. And a guy who had such a passion for Porsches isnt as likely to take such a stance against Porsche OWNERS. Maybe that's the difference, when you buy one, your position may change.

I bash members for liking their cars? Are you serious?
I have ALWAYS said, everyone should enjoy whatever car they have, hence me ranting about the bickering between different owners. I have gone so far as to change my whole view on this matter.
Don't confuse me not furiously masterbating to Porsche as not liking them...there are shades of gray. If I bought a Ferrari, I'd love it, but Jesus, it's still a car...

Whoo hoo, you want a cookie? Too many different criteria to take anything from that. I've encouraged one of my buddies to get one as well. And you know where I stand. So excuse me if that doesnt carry much weight with
me.

Umm, ok sorry? Just trying to show a case where I'm recommend a Porsche that's slower than a GTR since you're convinced I'm biased towards Nissan. No crap there are many criteria...again just showing despite that I'd favor Porsche over a Nissan to someone who wants a GTR. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

Coming from the guy that has me repsonding to essays every post.

My 5 posts in this thread still < your 300...


Like trolling 6speed???? Because that's exactly what you're doing.

Just messing with you...and sorry if my 1 post every 6-12 hours is "trolling."

I canBS you all day with comments like this. You may have tried to balance your attacks here recently because I called you on it, but it's pretty clear to everyone where you stand, and that is on a hill bashing all the Porsche OWNERS that are in this thread.

Yes, I am person who can see where I'm wrong and admit to it...wow, I'm a real bastard.
And again I'm bashing owners and GTR fanboys alike for their attitude, NOT their preference. See if you can tell the difference.

Granted I'll give you that you understand and accept some reasoning. But your approach here of how you address Porsche guys on their forum would get you banned most places.

That almost a compliment from you. And I'm sorry if my approach makes you butt-hurt enough to want to ban me. I'm not name calling, not swearing, not doing much other than not throwing pom-poms around for Porsche.
It's a free world, I'm not doing much other than not choosing to be a lemming and follow you 100%. Free-will apparently aggravates you even when someone tells you that they respect your knowledge and credit you for it changing their perspective...if I'm not running parallel with you, I'm apparently completely against you. \
Again see: shades of gray.

Originally Posted by jaeS4

Here are few list of articles stating the GTR being under-rated. Me calling the GTR a fat pig and under-rated does not make me a fanboy, far from it. You're a complete idiot for saying that.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ly+under-rated


Dynapack - which reads higher than normal, like I've already said.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/14/n...-ft-of-torque/

Dynapack again = useless

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/car...san-gt-r-make/

Says nothing but 420 whp. Stupid to think that = 519 hp at the crank. And they acknowledge Nissans' drivetrain loss claim and then totally ignore it..

HAHAHAH


http://www.nissangtrproto.com/2007/g...a-vs-r35-gt-r/

This says nothing, but confirms my idea of the ring GT-R being a ringer. Compared to the street GT-R's that one may be underrated. But the average GT-R isnt running any where near a Zonda in acceleration.