997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
#1426
11-10-2008, 10:37 AM
YES, HEAVYCHEVY HATES THE GT-R. I dislike it more than any car I can ever say I've disliked before. The STI is ugly, but I dont mind it. Never once have I tried to play a neutral party, there is nothing inconsistent about it.
I hate nissans advertising with the 997 TT
I hate their lying about ring times
I hate their deceptions about LC
I hate the mags who have rigged mag tests
I hate the clueless fanboy drivel (#1)
I hate the PS3 on the dashboard
I hate the interior
There, it's all out now, as if I needed to say it. I dont hate everything about the GT-R, in fact most of the stuff I hate doesnt actually have anything to do with the actual car. I think it's a great looking car with a nice set of wheels. But I dont like that it contradicts everything a true driving enthusiast is looking for. The relationship between car and driver, not car and nannies. In fact if you turn off all the computers and drive, your warranty is void.
I also dont like that people cant see what makes the car fast, and it's not all the gadgets. If everyone designed their car where the tires only needed to get 5k miles, I suspect that the combo of suspension setup changes and different tires would shuffle the GT-R well back in the order.
I hate nissans advertising with the 997 TT
I hate their lying about ring times
I hate their deceptions about LC
I hate the mags who have rigged mag tests
I hate the clueless fanboy drivel (#1)
I hate the PS3 on the dashboard
I hate the interior
There, it's all out now, as if I needed to say it. I dont hate everything about the GT-R, in fact most of the stuff I hate doesnt actually have anything to do with the actual car. I think it's a great looking car with a nice set of wheels. But I dont like that it contradicts everything a true driving enthusiast is looking for. The relationship between car and driver, not car and nannies. In fact if you turn off all the computers and drive, your warranty is void.
I also dont like that people cant see what makes the car fast, and it's not all the gadgets. If everyone designed their car where the tires only needed to get 5k miles, I suspect that the combo of suspension setup changes and different tires would shuffle the GT-R well back in the order.
I hate nissans advertising with the 997 TT- This is just Nissans way of getting some attention. Everyone does it, just like how Hyundai is comparing their cars to BMW.
I hate their lying about ring times- Still not proven that they lied, but it is obvious that it wasn't a stock 485hp car, definitely under-rated and a "ringer"
I hate their deceptions about LC- If it's in writing it is not deceptive, but it is somewhat of a false advertisement and certainly a bad move in Nissan's part.
I hate the mags who have rigged mag tests- I don't think mags rigged them, but Nissan might have provided some of them with a "ringer".
I hate the clueless fanboy drivel (#1)- Almost any car will have some type of fanboys, clueless or not. Look in the mirror.
I hate the PS3 on the dashboard- Subjective issue, but in GTR's defense, it is functional.
I hate the interior- Again, this is subjective as well.
In regards to contradicting what a "true driving enthusiast is looking for", that's a matter of opinion and this is only your opinion and you're entitled to yours of course. I see it as being different and non-traditional. Just like how some of the new Supercars out there that only uses a paddle shifter. Bottom line, you should probably stop hatin and just be a Porsche enthusiast instead. Porsche 997tt is without a doubt a better sportscar even for twice the amount.
#1427
11-10-2008, 10:49 AM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 
Ugh, if you notice this is a Porsche forum. I'm free to hate on the GT-R here all day if I want to. And that's exactly what I'll do.
If you want to find people who like the GT-R, there are plenty of places for that. But trying to force everyone to like it by trolling every place to defend it is getting old.
If you want to find people who like the GT-R, there are plenty of places for that. But trying to force everyone to like it by trolling every place to defend it is getting old.
#1429
11-10-2008, 10:52 AM
guys, if you haven't checked this out yet, you should... (sorry, i tried searching and couldn't find any reference to the thread here)
its a thread from PH, and is relevant because it includes a letter to 6speeder AdamT from ace 'Ring driver Wolfgang Webber about how he (WW) was unable to get below 7:45 in a stock customer GTR.
he also goes on to point out that Walter Rohrl and even Menzel were unable to get below 7:45 either.
Webber is:
1) eminently qualified as a test driver, given he has held some 'Ring records, and is an active and successful racer at the 'Ring 24H race (his CV is HERE)
2) not biased, as he was testing the GTR as part of a suspension development programme for KW;
oh, while we're at it, a great little Discover Channel video on WW is found HERE
here's the actual email sent by WW re: the GTR:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes too much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
there's the usual he-said she-said that the 7:29 GTR was indeed a ringer... BUT even putting that aside, the point stands that some of the fastest, most experienced ringmeisters around were unable to get anywhere near close to Nissan's time.
i've had my first drive in a GTR this past weekend, and it is amazingly quick and incredibly impressive. Don't know why Nissan had to resort to cheating, when IMO, the car they've produced is nothing to be ashamed about.
its a thread from PH, and is relevant because it includes a letter to 6speeder AdamT from ace 'Ring driver Wolfgang Webber about how he (WW) was unable to get below 7:45 in a stock customer GTR.
he also goes on to point out that Walter Rohrl and even Menzel were unable to get below 7:45 either.
Webber is:
1) eminently qualified as a test driver, given he has held some 'Ring records, and is an active and successful racer at the 'Ring 24H race (his CV is HERE)
2) not biased, as he was testing the GTR as part of a suspension development programme for KW;
oh, while we're at it, a great little Discover Channel video on WW is found HERE
here's the actual email sent by WW re: the GTR:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes too much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
there's the usual he-said she-said that the 7:29 GTR was indeed a ringer... BUT even putting that aside, the point stands that some of the fastest, most experienced ringmeisters around were unable to get anywhere near close to Nissan's time.
i've had my first drive in a GTR this past weekend, and it is amazingly quick and incredibly impressive. Don't know why Nissan had to resort to cheating, when IMO, the car they've produced is nothing to be ashamed about.
#1430
11-10-2008, 10:56 AM
In terms of interaction and feedback in "R" mode, I would say it's certainly the equal of or better than a 997 Turbo in all aspects. I haven't driven a 997 GT3, but I would imagine it is certainly less "raw" (although I know of one person who claims it was better in this respect than his current GT3).
The steering could perhaps be a bit more communicative, but it certainly isn't numb to drive in the way (for example) most modern BMWs are.
Why not ignore the never-ending internet rubbish (you'll have to stop talking to yourself) and actually drive the car before delivering judgment?
#1431
11-10-2008, 12:35 PM
Basically, we have a car that is a good start, but needs much more work on things like the tranny, and they need to figure out what to do about LC. If they really want people to use LC, then they are going to have to raise the price of the car so they can put in a tranny that can take the torque. What this will do, is cause the GTR not to be the bargain they said it was. As they improve things, the price will go up, and the car will approach the price of a 997TT ever closer. By that time, the next big performance Porsche will be out, whether it be the 998TT or something else, and then the GTR will be an also ran. Obviuosly they let the car fly before it was sufficiently developed. Porsche plays it safe and does not release a high torque PDK car before it is done right. The old adage is true, you get what you pay for. There are no short cuts when you are dealing with this kind of performance and power.
Last edited by USCCayman; 11-10-2008 at 07:18 PM.
#1432
11-10-2008, 01:31 PM
guys, if you haven't checked this out yet, you should... (sorry, i tried searching and couldn't find any reference to the thread here)
its a thread from PH, and is relevant because it includes a letter to 6speeder AdamT from ace 'Ring driver Wolfgang Webber about how he (WW) was unable to get below 7:45 in a stock customer GTR.
he also goes on to point out that Walter Rohrl and even Menzel were unable to get below 7:45 either.
Webber is:
1) eminently qualified as a test driver, given he has held some 'Ring records, and is an active and successful racer at the 'Ring 24H race (his CV is HERE)
2) not biased, as he was testing the GTR as part of a suspension development programme for KW;
oh, while we're at it, a great little Discover Channel video on WW is found HERE
here's the actual email sent by WW re: the GTR:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes too much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
there's the usual he-said she-said that the 7:29 GTR was indeed a ringer... BUT even putting that aside, the point stands that some of the fastest, most experienced ringmeisters around were unable to get anywhere near close to Nissan's time.
i've had my first drive in a GTR this past weekend, and it is amazingly quick and incredibly impressive. Don't know why Nissan had to resort to cheating, when IMO, the car they've produced is nothing to be ashamed about.
its a thread from PH, and is relevant because it includes a letter to 6speeder AdamT from ace 'Ring driver Wolfgang Webber about how he (WW) was unable to get below 7:45 in a stock customer GTR.
he also goes on to point out that Walter Rohrl and even Menzel were unable to get below 7:45 either.
Webber is:
1) eminently qualified as a test driver, given he has held some 'Ring records, and is an active and successful racer at the 'Ring 24H race (his CV is HERE)
2) not biased, as he was testing the GTR as part of a suspension development programme for KW;
oh, while we're at it, a great little Discover Channel video on WW is found HERE
here's the actual email sent by WW re: the GTR:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes too much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
there's the usual he-said she-said that the 7:29 GTR was indeed a ringer... BUT even putting that aside, the point stands that some of the fastest, most experienced ringmeisters around were unable to get anywhere near close to Nissan's time.
i've had my first drive in a GTR this past weekend, and it is amazingly quick and incredibly impressive. Don't know why Nissan had to resort to cheating, when IMO, the car they've produced is nothing to be ashamed about.
You are leaving out an important piece of information. I know those guys you mention are fast at the 'ring, but I bet they didn't have any lessons from Nissan on driving the GTR. No wonder they could not get anywhere close to the 7:29.
#1433
11-10-2008, 01:47 PM
I see from the Piston Heads threads that Trommel has been well aware of the Wolfgang Webber and Walter Rohrl times for about a week now. Webber and Rohrl are acknowledged as 2 of the top 5 Ring drivers in the world, can usually lap within 1-2 seconds of each other on any platform, yet neither one could get within 15 seconds of the alleged record lap by Nissan.
#1434
11-10-2008, 01:48 PM
#1435
11-10-2008, 03:08 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551 ... but, of course, you haven't driven one so how do you know?
In terms of interaction and feedback in "R" mode, I would say it's certainly the equal of or better than a 997 Turbo in all aspects. I haven't driven a 997 GT3, but I would imagine it is certainly less "raw" (although I know of one person who claims it was better in this respect than his current GT3).
The steering could perhaps be a bit more communicative, but it certainly isn't numb to drive in the way (for example) most modern BMWs are.
Why not ignore the never-ending internet rubbish (you'll have to stop talking to yourself) and actually drive the car before delivering judgment?
In terms of interaction and feedback in "R" mode, I would say it's certainly the equal of or better than a 997 Turbo in all aspects. I haven't driven a 997 GT3, but I would imagine it is certainly less "raw" (although I know of one person who claims it was better in this respect than his current GT3).
The steering could perhaps be a bit more communicative, but it certainly isn't numb to drive in the way (for example) most modern BMWs are.
Why not ignore the never-ending internet rubbish (you'll have to stop talking to yourself) and actually drive the car before delivering judgment?
Do you even know what makes a drivers car? It's not 4000 lbs that will eat and overheat tires quickly. It punishes and buckles even the stiff sidewalls of R-comps. It's not endless amounts of computer controls that cant be disabled without voiding the warranty. AWD combined with low revs and paddle shifters doesnt make a case for it either. You can mix and match and still keep the driver aspect, but combined this has all the ingredients of the technomobile, "driver not included" car.
Every personal account I've read says you can feel the computers getting you through the corners. Or similarly to throw the car into a turn, mash the gas and let the computers do the rest. Do I need to drive one to know that that's not really what you're looking for in a true drivers car?
You're an idiot.
#1436
11-10-2008, 03:19 PM
Every personal account I've read says you can feel the computers getting you through the corners. Or similarly to throw the car into a turn, mash the gas and let the computers do the rest. Do I need to drive one to know that that's not really what you're looking for in a true drivers car?
You're an idiot.
You're an idiot.
... and then the personal insults. A sure-fire admission that your argumentative skills have reached their nadir. Well done.
#1437
11-10-2008, 03:46 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 551
The TT still comes with a stick, with computers you can turn off, and AWD designed to make the car handle like a RWD car, which is why people can get the rear end to hang out so easily and be modulated by throttle by the DRIVER, not the computers.
But while not on the same level, yes the TT can be discounted to a lesser extent for SOME the same reasons. That's why there is a GT3, and GT2. Porsche has an undisputed reputation for making drivers cars. So you're still pulling for straws.
But thanks for conceding at least what everyone here already knew anyways.
But while not on the same level, yes the TT can be discounted to a lesser extent for SOME the same reasons. That's why there is a GT3, and GT2. Porsche has an undisputed reputation for making drivers cars. So you're still pulling for straws.
But thanks for conceding at least what everyone here already knew anyways.
#1438
11-10-2008, 03:52 PM
