Drivers Republic GT2 v GTR around the Nurburgring
#121
11-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Hey Dez,Porsche is (and has been for quite a while) the highest profit making auto mfg'r in the World.
Sometimes... production costs have very little to do with selling price...or in other words...
Porsche charges (like Ferrari) what ever the Market is willing to pay !!!
#122
11-28-2008, 02:16 PM
As HC said, it is easy to build a cheap but fast car. I saw a video on you tube in which a suped up Subaru WRX (?) ran against a Lamborghini Gallardo (I believe it was), and the Subie had no trouble keeping up. It was also a tight track where the high speed Lambo could not stretch it's legs. Which is the nicer car, however? I'm sure some might say the Subie, but you get the point.
#123
11-28-2008, 02:24 PM
I think there is a good analogy in cycling. You can buy an excellent road bike for around $1500 that is light (say 20 lbs.) and handles well. That is all most of us need. You can also spend $10,000 for a road bike built out of exotic materials that weighs maybe 14 lbs. For someone like Lance Armstrong, the price difference will matter. When you compete against the worlds best in a grueling race, you need all the advantages you can get. For daily rides and exercise like I do, you don't need the $10,000 bike. However, if you can afford it, it is sure nice to have, especially if cycling is your thing.
#124
11-29-2008, 03:21 AM
Get your facts right troll. Porsche DOES NOT OWN AUDI OR SEAT. In fact, THEY DONT OWN VW EITHER. They have what is called controlling interest. And that in this case is about 35% !!!! Economics 101. And Lambo, Seat, Audi are all part of the VW equity aquisition. Not only that but it's only been a few months since Porsche got VW. What the heck are you talking about? Not only that, Porsche will not use a VW to establish the price of a Porsche. They aquired a current operation, they did not invent VW. Porsche on it's own makes only about 9-10k cars a year, Nissan Makes 3.5 million. Dont even try that petty nonsense with me.
GM IS Caddillac, GM, Chevy, Saturn, Hummer, Pontiac they build them, they run everything. GM AQUIRED Daewoo, these are two different things. Selling lots of cobalts WILL NOT affect the cost of a Holden, Saab or Vauxhall. But it WILL AFFECT the price of a Corvette.
Ford Owned Aston Martin for a while, but Aston IS NOT and never has been a Ford Product, so Astons never got any cheaper. And when Ford parted ways with Aston, there was still Ford and still Aston, prices not affected. In aquisitions, manufacturers dont cross breed the different brands by allowing the sales of one to affect the cost of another. Especially across borders.
On top of that value has long been established before Porsche aquired any of those brands.
On top of that, Porsche makes a good bundle off of being the number one seller of race cars in the world and carrying a high profit margin on their cars.
Chevy can sell the Corvette at reasonable prices because of the lesser models that are US GM manufactured products (Cobalt, pickups, etc) not because of cheap aquisitions cars from other countries.
If Dodge does manage to sell the Viper watch the price shoot through the roof unless someone with big time production is willing to break even on the Viper while building the brand image of other cars.
Look at other limited model cars that lost money:
Ford GT
Carrera GT
Veyron
Viper
GT-R
And suddenly you see how easy it is to lose money on high performance, but it builds the brand image so they do it anyways.
Nissan is in the top 7 manufacturers in the world, Porsche only entered that with CONTROLLING INTEREST IN VW.
For the hooked on phonics, that DOES NOT MEAN THEY OWN VW.
Porsche is in the bottom ten in total production in and of itself.
So try again, you cant just come in here and spew anything and expect it to carry weight, do some reserach first.
GM IS Caddillac, GM, Chevy, Saturn, Hummer, Pontiac they build them, they run everything. GM AQUIRED Daewoo, these are two different things. Selling lots of cobalts WILL NOT affect the cost of a Holden, Saab or Vauxhall. But it WILL AFFECT the price of a Corvette.
Ford Owned Aston Martin for a while, but Aston IS NOT and never has been a Ford Product, so Astons never got any cheaper. And when Ford parted ways with Aston, there was still Ford and still Aston, prices not affected. In aquisitions, manufacturers dont cross breed the different brands by allowing the sales of one to affect the cost of another. Especially across borders.
On top of that value has long been established before Porsche aquired any of those brands.
On top of that, Porsche makes a good bundle off of being the number one seller of race cars in the world and carrying a high profit margin on their cars.
Chevy can sell the Corvette at reasonable prices because of the lesser models that are US GM manufactured products (Cobalt, pickups, etc) not because of cheap aquisitions cars from other countries.
If Dodge does manage to sell the Viper watch the price shoot through the roof unless someone with big time production is willing to break even on the Viper while building the brand image of other cars.
Look at other limited model cars that lost money:
Ford GT
Carrera GT
Veyron
Viper
GT-R
And suddenly you see how easy it is to lose money on high performance, but it builds the brand image so they do it anyways.
Nissan is in the top 7 manufacturers in the world, Porsche only entered that with CONTROLLING INTEREST IN VW.
For the hooked on phonics, that DOES NOT MEAN THEY OWN VW.
Porsche is in the bottom ten in total production in and of itself.
So try again, you cant just come in here and spew anything and expect it to carry weight, do some reserach first.
Last edited by heavychevy; 11-29-2008 at 10:13 AM.
#125
11-29-2008, 04:30 AM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 560
Rep Power: 40 
What I meant, in addition to massive (>2X) price delta, was that the GT2 is the pinnacle car in the range, not the base model with that chassis. I assume you are referring to the ACR and the ZR1. Those should be compared to the GT2.
GT-R should be compared to the 4S or TT in the 911 line or to the Z06 in the vette line.
-Chris
GT-R should be compared to the 4S or TT in the 911 line or to the Z06 in the vette line.
-Chris
So Porsche CGT v Nissan GTR R35 (top of the line)
Porsche GT2 v Nissan 350Z (sort of middle of the line)
Porsche Panamera v Nissan Altima
Porsche Cayenne v Nissan Murano
In the desirability stakes the Nissan gets OWNED !!!!
#126
11-29-2008, 05:36 AM
The Nissan GTR is Nissan's best car, the VSpec isnt out yet.
So Porsche CGT v Nissan GTR R35 (top of the line)
Porsche GT2 v Nissan 350Z (sort of middle of the line)
Porsche Panamera v Nissan Altima
Porsche Cayenne v Nissan Murano
In the desirability stakes the Nissan gets OWNED !!!!
So Porsche CGT v Nissan GTR R35 (top of the line)
Porsche GT2 v Nissan 350Z (sort of middle of the line)
Porsche Panamera v Nissan Altima
Porsche Cayenne v Nissan Murano
In the desirability stakes the Nissan gets OWNED !!!!
Can I ask you what NISSAN CUBE or NISSAN MARCH or NISSAN NOTE ish piece of shxt vs???
Last edited by lintc0532; 11-29-2008 at 05:45 AM.
#128
11-29-2008, 09:16 AM
The Nissan GTR is Nissan's best car, the VSpec isnt out yet.
So Porsche CGT v Nissan GTR R35 (top of the line)
Porsche GT2 v Nissan 350Z (sort of middle of the line)
Porsche Panamera v Nissan Altima
Porsche Cayenne v Nissan Murano
In the desirability stakes the Nissan gets OWNED !!!!
So Porsche CGT v Nissan GTR R35 (top of the line)
Porsche GT2 v Nissan 350Z (sort of middle of the line)
Porsche Panamera v Nissan Altima
Porsche Cayenne v Nissan Murano
In the desirability stakes the Nissan gets OWNED !!!!
In any case, you get my point. Will be interesting to see how the V-Spec does.
#129
11-29-2008, 09:20 AM
Only alternative is to hope for massive global recession, so premiums evaporate and dealers start calling you begging you to take a test drive (this applies to the F430 and GT2 as well, BTW). I, regrettably, was not smart enough to predict that.
#130
11-29-2008, 01:54 PM
Sorry to say you are wrong again....
School is in session HeavyChevy so pay attention:
http://www.reuters.com/article/innov...49P1PB20081027
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Porsche SE (PSHG_p.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) plans to gain control of over 75 percent of Volkswagen (VOWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) in order to pass a domination and profit transfer agreement that would grant it full control of VW's cash flows, Porsche said on Sunday.
As of the end of last week, Porsche said in a statement, it owned 42.6 percent of Volkswagen voting stock and held a further 31.5 percent in cash-settled options on VW ordinaries -- giving it indirect control of 74.1 percent.
"The goal is to raise this to 75 percent in 2009, so long as the economic conditions permit, and pave the way for a domination agreement," it said, adding the Porsche and Piech clans that control the eponymous European holding had conclusively agreed last week in favor of dominating VW.
Porsche said it still expects to boost its direct stake in VW votes above the 50 percent threshold by the end of this year.
A Volkswagen spokesman said the news reflected Porsche's desire to raise its stake in the world's third largest carmaker.
Under German law, a domination agreement requires at least 75 percent control of a company's votes present at a shareholder meeting but traditionally VW has required 80 percent in order to give its home-state government additional clout.
Porsche is currently in a legal dispute with Lower Saxony over the Volkswagen Law and a corporate statute that both stipulate consequently that any such agreement would require the approval of the German state, which holds a blocking minority with just 20 percent of VW's votes.
Lower Saxony's government declined to comment on Porsche's plans, while a spokesman for the works council that represents the interest of VW's organized labor said staff continued to reject a domination agreement under Porsche.
VW labor leader Bernd Osterloh has repeatedly been at odds with Porsche Chief Executive Wendelin Wiedeking, who angered 360,000 Volkswagen workers with unpopular measures such as campaigning hard for the end of the VW Law.
SCHAEFFLER KNEW BETTER
In a statement sent to Reuters, Osterloh said it was clear to him what Wiedeking wanted since he had behaved this past year as if Volkswagen already belonged to him.
He said Schaeffler, the new controlling shareholder of Continental (CONG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), had learned to be sympathetic to the needs of the staff at the auto parts giant, although Schaeffler had never enjoyed good relations with its own unions.
"Even Schaeffler understood that you cannot acquire a company against the will of the employees," Osterloh said.
The 31.5 percent that Porsche holds in cash-settled options does not grant it physical delivery of VW ordinary shares, but allows it to receive the difference in cash between the market price and an option's strike price."
So by owning VW, Porsche also owns Bugatti, Audi, Seat,and Lamborghini. It is also the worlds 3rd largest car manufacturer as well. The Cayenne and Panamera are simply rebodied VW Toureg's with the same drive train and even both use the Audi V-6 in the base model. Porsche now controls what cars Lamborghini will make which could mean axing the Lamborghini Estoque I would presume, since that car would compete with both the Bentley Continental Spur as well as Porsche's new Panamera TT. Porsche is now only behind Toyota and GM in size.
Now to compare the 997 GT2 to the base model GT-R is pretty far fetched. Nissan obviously targeted the 997 TT with their standard version. The Spec V would be a more appropriate measuring stick to the GT2, but will still cost $100,000 less and give similar performance. Perhaps the LM GT-R could be compared to the Carrera GT for $250,000 less, if it is ever released? The fact a Nissan is being compared to these top of the line Porsche products says it all for the design and execution of this car.
School is in session HeavyChevy so pay attention:
http://www.reuters.com/article/innov...49P1PB20081027
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Porsche SE (PSHG_p.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) plans to gain control of over 75 percent of Volkswagen (VOWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) in order to pass a domination and profit transfer agreement that would grant it full control of VW's cash flows, Porsche said on Sunday.
As of the end of last week, Porsche said in a statement, it owned 42.6 percent of Volkswagen voting stock and held a further 31.5 percent in cash-settled options on VW ordinaries -- giving it indirect control of 74.1 percent.
"The goal is to raise this to 75 percent in 2009, so long as the economic conditions permit, and pave the way for a domination agreement," it said, adding the Porsche and Piech clans that control the eponymous European holding had conclusively agreed last week in favor of dominating VW.
Porsche said it still expects to boost its direct stake in VW votes above the 50 percent threshold by the end of this year.
A Volkswagen spokesman said the news reflected Porsche's desire to raise its stake in the world's third largest carmaker.
Under German law, a domination agreement requires at least 75 percent control of a company's votes present at a shareholder meeting but traditionally VW has required 80 percent in order to give its home-state government additional clout.
Porsche is currently in a legal dispute with Lower Saxony over the Volkswagen Law and a corporate statute that both stipulate consequently that any such agreement would require the approval of the German state, which holds a blocking minority with just 20 percent of VW's votes.
Lower Saxony's government declined to comment on Porsche's plans, while a spokesman for the works council that represents the interest of VW's organized labor said staff continued to reject a domination agreement under Porsche.
VW labor leader Bernd Osterloh has repeatedly been at odds with Porsche Chief Executive Wendelin Wiedeking, who angered 360,000 Volkswagen workers with unpopular measures such as campaigning hard for the end of the VW Law.
SCHAEFFLER KNEW BETTER
In a statement sent to Reuters, Osterloh said it was clear to him what Wiedeking wanted since he had behaved this past year as if Volkswagen already belonged to him.
He said Schaeffler, the new controlling shareholder of Continental (CONG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), had learned to be sympathetic to the needs of the staff at the auto parts giant, although Schaeffler had never enjoyed good relations with its own unions.
"Even Schaeffler understood that you cannot acquire a company against the will of the employees," Osterloh said.
The 31.5 percent that Porsche holds in cash-settled options does not grant it physical delivery of VW ordinary shares, but allows it to receive the difference in cash between the market price and an option's strike price."
So by owning VW, Porsche also owns Bugatti, Audi, Seat,and Lamborghini. It is also the worlds 3rd largest car manufacturer as well. The Cayenne and Panamera are simply rebodied VW Toureg's with the same drive train and even both use the Audi V-6 in the base model. Porsche now controls what cars Lamborghini will make which could mean axing the Lamborghini Estoque I would presume, since that car would compete with both the Bentley Continental Spur as well as Porsche's new Panamera TT. Porsche is now only behind Toyota and GM in size.
Now to compare the 997 GT2 to the base model GT-R is pretty far fetched. Nissan obviously targeted the 997 TT with their standard version. The Spec V would be a more appropriate measuring stick to the GT2, but will still cost $100,000 less and give similar performance. Perhaps the LM GT-R could be compared to the Carrera GT for $250,000 less, if it is ever released? The fact a Nissan is being compared to these top of the line Porsche products says it all for the design and execution of this car.
I'm glad you left out the rest of my post considering many companies own stock, but that is only profits, like owning stock in any other company. That is not the same as GM,Pontiac,Chevy etc. Nissan,Inifnity or Honda,Acura and so on.
You arent schooling anyone but yourself. Porsche wants to gain complete control of VW so they can not only profit from it, but they then can claim VW on their CAFE rules. This is why there is the big deal over the 20% that they are battling over. VW rules vs German rules.
I'm not brilliant at stocks and options, but it's pretty appearant you dont know what you're talking about. When Porsche owns VW, VW will no longer be listed as VW, it will be listed as a subsidiary of Porsche thereby putting Porsche in the top three manufacturers which it is NOT right now.
Last edited by heavychevy; 11-29-2008 at 02:02 PM.
#131
11-29-2008, 03:53 PM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 560
Rep Power: 40 
#132
11-29-2008, 06:42 PM
Your reading comprehension is poor as usual. Porsche has OWNED VW since it's controlling stake was 35%. in September this year Porsche has effectively taken over VW.
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Po...spx?menuid=726
BERLIN (AP) -- Porsche raised its stake in fellow German automaker Volkswagen on Tuesday to more than 35 percent -- a move that it said gives effective control over Europe's biggest car maker. Porsche Automobil Holding SE previously held a stake of a little more than 30 percent and has said it plans to raise that to a majority holding. It said that it acquired an additional 14.4 million ordinary VW shares, or 4.89 percent, on Tuesday -- taking its share of the voting rights to 35.14 percent.
Porsche said in a statement that "as a result of this acquisition, Volkswagen ... has become a subsidiary of Porsche Automobil Holding SE" under German securities laws.
"This step ensures that Porsche has a lasting majority at the VW annual general meeting," the Stuttgart-based company said. It added that Volkswagen employee representatives will now take seats on Porsche's employee council and supervisory board.
"Our goal continues to be to increase our stake in Volkswagen to more than 50 percent," chief executive Wendelin Wiedeking said. "Today's step is a further milestone along this road."
Read the bolded part please. Porsche OWNS VW. VW is now a SUBSIDIARY of Porsche. It has now upped it shares to 42.6% and plans to go over 51% shortly to effectively give it over 75% total ownership of VW, Seat, Lamborghini, Bentley and Audi. That is called ownership. But again those are just the facts.
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Po...spx?menuid=726
BERLIN (AP) -- Porsche raised its stake in fellow German automaker Volkswagen on Tuesday to more than 35 percent -- a move that it said gives effective control over Europe's biggest car maker. Porsche Automobil Holding SE previously held a stake of a little more than 30 percent and has said it plans to raise that to a majority holding. It said that it acquired an additional 14.4 million ordinary VW shares, or 4.89 percent, on Tuesday -- taking its share of the voting rights to 35.14 percent.
Porsche said in a statement that "as a result of this acquisition, Volkswagen ... has become a subsidiary of Porsche Automobil Holding SE" under German securities laws.
"This step ensures that Porsche has a lasting majority at the VW annual general meeting," the Stuttgart-based company said. It added that Volkswagen employee representatives will now take seats on Porsche's employee council and supervisory board.
"Our goal continues to be to increase our stake in Volkswagen to more than 50 percent," chief executive Wendelin Wiedeking said. "Today's step is a further milestone along this road."
Read the bolded part please. Porsche OWNS VW. VW is now a SUBSIDIARY of Porsche. It has now upped it shares to 42.6% and plans to go over 51% shortly to effectively give it over 75% total ownership of VW, Seat, Lamborghini, Bentley and Audi. That is called ownership. But again those are just the facts.
Your other searches didnt pay off for you because you didnt know what they meant so you had to keep searching huh?
Anyways, this is all beside the point because the the VW aquisition has nothing to do with current models as Porsche JUST GAINED CONTROL THIS YEAR. So your claiming that Porsche is in the Top 3 is premature at best. Like I said earlier this has nothing to do with current models.
You act like Porsche has had this control for years. They havent even had a chance to do anything yet. It's had no affect on the current production Porsches. So the cars that are built better than Nissan now are built of a 10k a year production run and racing program vs a 3.5 million a year producer who's been over-run by renault. For the better part of decades and decades.
So lets go over who should be embarrased again:
Porsche:
- with an annual production of 10k cars
- aquires control of the 3rd largest auto manufacturer
- sells the most racing cars of everyone
- builds better, stronger, faster cars and provides service to match
- actually makes money on all their production cars
or
Nissan:
-making 3.5 million cars a year
-gets taken over by Renault
-loses money on an 80 k car
that's roughly only 40% of Porsche Suttgarts total production.- builds an 80k car that has the maintenance of a 300k car
- spent 5 years building (an 80k car) and in the first year of release has had a recall for ALL the homeland cars, is removing a feature, and voiding warranties, which are no good without traction control.
You make the decision. Nissan's budget on the GT-R was bigger than ANY 911, and most likely bigger than the CGT since the CGT was never originally concepted to be a street car, and used and already developed engine that was intended for F1. Yet in 5 years they couldnt figure out how to make it profitable, or how to make it work without babying it and servicing it all the time.
You have to be kidding me.
Last edited by heavychevy; 11-29-2008 at 06:54 PM.
#133
11-29-2008, 09:35 PM
I'm not brilliant at stocks and options, but it's pretty appearant you dont know what you're talking about. When Porsche owns VW, VW will no longer be listed as VW, it will be listed as a subsidiary of Porsche thereby putting Porsche in the top three manufacturers which it is NOT right now.
No I didn't need to keep searching to know that Porsche has had a controlling stake in VW, but you were obviously clueless. That's why I quoted the article in my last post which detailed EXACTLY what you didn't know. VW is a subsidiary of Porsche. You were oblivious as your post states. Again Porsche is now the 3rd largest manufacturer in the world. The end.
The fact that a company with way less motor racing experience, and pedigree than Porsche can build a car that beats one of their top of the line products is remarkable. That Nissan can do it cheaper is really not as significant because Porsche overcharges on all of their models, as evidenced by their incredible $28K profit per unit sold. But kudos to Nissan for making a car that can hang with a GT2 and GT3 around a circuit and still be as comfortable as a 997 TT around town, all for $75K. This car is a milestone for Nissan as even their R34 GT-R was not a competitor to the 996 TT. They have stepped up to the plate and delivered a very strong effort, causing Porsche to up it's own game for the 998 TT.
No I didn't need to keep searching to know that Porsche has had a controlling stake in VW, but you were obviously clueless. That's why I quoted the article in my last post which detailed EXACTLY what you didn't know.
VW is a subsidiary of Porsche. You were oblivious as your post states. Again Porsche is now the 3rd largest manufacturer in the world. The end. The fact that a company with way less motor racing experience, and pedigree than Porsche can build a car that beats one of their top of the line products is remarkable. That Nissan can do it cheaper is really not as significant because Porsche overcharges on all of their models, as evidenced by their incredible $28K profit per unit sold. But kudos to Nissan for making a car that can hang with a GT2 and GT3 around a circuit and still be as comfortable as a 997 TT around town, all for $75K. This car is a milestone for Nissan as even their R34 GT-R was not a competitor to the 996 TT. They have stepped up to the plate and delivered a very strong effort, causing Porsche to up it's own game for the 998 TT.
Way to skip the relevant information, which is that Porsches stance as a world manufacturer has nothing to do with the fact that Nissan should be embarrased by being outdone by a small manufacturer. The FACT that this occurance has taken place in the last year has no relevance to the current Porsche lineup, but you'll continue to ignore that part wont you.
Nissan IS TAKING A LASHING ON THE GT-R. It's one thing to make a car, it's another to make it profitable. Poor business is the reason Nissan has been taken over by Renault, and not the other way around. How do you think Ghosn got to be over the GT-R project? And even he couldnt make it profitable. The whole 911 series turns a profit. Because of smart business.
Nissan was on it's way to failing before Renault injected Ghosn after taking over. And they had to take a huge hit to establish themselves back in the performance industry. And by the time that happens, Porsche will be dominating Nissan on various levels.
JUST WAIT UNTIL PORSCHE HAS THE CHANCE TO REAP THE BENEFITS OF HAVING LARGER CAR PRODUCTION NUMBERS WHEN THEY OBTAIN DOMINATION OF VW. Then let's see what happens. Even more embarrasment for Nissan, who's eating crow right now because of sneaky advertising.
You still havent answered the question.
Chevy and Dodge have made cheaper cars that can outrun any 911. Nissan put 5 years of developement and unlimited portions of budgets into the GT-R and #1 cant turn a profit, and #2 cant beat all the 911's. So who is the underacheiver here? Renault and Nissan combined make over 6 million cars, but still cant beat the 911.
The 997 TT has been out for several years and Nissan had to scrap the Manual to make the GT-R competitive, and in doing so didnt spend enough time on the car to make it able to drive without traction control aids to save the tranny.
So who should be embarrased here. The small manufacturer who sold only 10k cars a year and now is building an empire, or the compilation of Renault and Nissan who still cant beat the 911?
#134
11-29-2008, 10:01 PM
OK, we know you can copy and paste and use the search engine, now, can you formulate a opinion based on the information we have, or are you going to continue to ignore the original issue?
I thought so.............
I thought so.............
#135
11-29-2008, 10:35 PM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 560
Rep Power: 40
Obviously there has been more than 4 instances of gearbox failures, why else would Nissan scrap the LC in the upcoming model? Once the LC is scrapped, watch out for a 4sec plus 0-60 and high 12 sec quarters. Im afraid that Nissan has ruined its reputation by misleading Nurburgring times, overly optimistic performance times and weak transmission.