Let me first say a big thank you. This is very very helpful to me.

Makes total sense. However, when I installed the components one at a time, the improvement in handling was there every single time. Of course, together with the improvement in handling came noise and a harsher ride. But handling improved and the car managed to stay planted much better.

I don't know if I'm using a good analogy, but it's like I'm setting up a rally car. I can't really use stock components because while comfortable, it bounces around like a boat or sedan.

But you are right, one suggestion my friends gave me on my 930 Turbo was to avoid metallic ball joints and go with polyurethane bushings.

This is what I'm worried about and this is why I am thinking I may need to go with the KWs. I'm worried that I've done too much that the PASM parameters are off.

In a way, if I had a PASM very soft setting available, I think my car would be perfect!

Once again, I'm being totally picky. In my right mind, I should accept and be very happy with what I have. That's what all my friends tell me. My friend drove behind me yesterday and said that my car is totally planted.

Thank you so much for bearing with me.

Really? How do you attain GT3 negative camber settings on your car with the stock LCAs? Camber plates?

In conclusion, maybe my problem is revert back to near stock and stick with either my TECHART of B16s.

Or push along and have no clue what to do.

 

Not for DaBraat but for others new to this: Picture of metallic Heim joint versus Polyurethane stock bushing below. The metallic joint improves handling feel and precision, but over bumps for example the car would make a "crack" noise, instead of a "thud." Without question there is an increase in noise and harshness, to trade-off for handling precision. Don't get me wrong, I *love* the Tarett heim joint drop link in my car, makes the car very planted and the rear secure in high speed turns, but it does increase noise and stiffness. Lightly for me, but YMMV.


Rarely talked about also is the fact that heim joint is a wear item. They wear and become loose over time and you do have to check them and replace if/when necessary. For the drop link, it's easy; but for the other links (dog bones), not so easy to check on your own.

 

1. I think you know more than you are letting on! I agree with everything you say, that metallic heim joint improves handling precision. I merely am emphasizing that more than any other mods - suspension tuning is always about trade-off; what improves handling will very likely decreasing ride comfort (the *only* exception is unsprung weight reduction - brake, rim, tire, this improves both ride and handling). You could have one or the other, or pick a middle ground, but can't have both. Food for thought: Porsche GT3, the king of Porsche 911 handling, does NOT have a single heim joint in its suspension until recently. What that tells me is you could achieve fantastic handling by using stiffer spring and sway bar, R comp tire, and alignment. It really is that simple.
I would start with the drop link as you are doing (front one uses Techart or Bilstein, rear drop link you could use stock), then next would be the dog bones (un-necessary except for the most dedicated track junkies). No guarantee if it could bring you the holy grail, but that's a good start if your car is unbearably stiff on street driving.

2. Very unlikely DaBraat. To best of my knowledge PASM when not working will immediately incapacitate your car and stay on the extreme high setting all the time. Your car alarm lamp will light up like a Christmas tree.

3. My car is a daily driver and I only use the GT3's *street* setting, which is 1.2 front, 1.6 rear camber, and my tuner adds a little toe out in front to get rid of the Turbo's lazy steering (which drove me nuts, in comparison to GT3). If you are a track junkie yes higher camber is a good thing, but again I would like to point out the trade-off: high camber (and toe) negatively affect straightline braking and acceleration because of decreased straight-line traction.

 

2. I'll start with this cause I really am starting to wonder more and more if this is the possible culprit.
My total guesswork with no basis for what I'm about to say:
PASM has a fixed set of algorithms that the computer follows to manage our suspension settings on the fly. Unless we change the assumptions (which is set to stock), it must be assuming a range of camber, caster and toe. It probably also assumes a certain amount of flex by the car, which I have changed with sways and the metallic joints. The more you move away from stock, without "resetting the PASM fixed assumed parameters", the PASM will be working on a "wrong curve". To simplify it with an analogy, the PASM thinks you're a 6 foot man when you're really a 7 foot woman. And it gets worse as you become an 8 foot hippo.

3. Yeah, there are definitely tradeoffs. I do believe this is something I really need to reevaluate. However, going back to my reason for all this is I'm wondering if having a suspension like the KW V3s, will having an ability to set compression and rebound allow me to find a balance to accommodate the mods I have made so that they work with the coilovers to give me the best possible setting for my bumpy streets? I'm saying this cause with the TAs, my only option is as you have said, undo what I've done. Can't move forward.

You mentioned that I know more than I'm letting on. Nah, I really knew nothing before I started this project. Which is also why I'm kinda very curious what the KWs will do and can teach me. $10k for a lesson is very expensive though. I love feeling the car, but I'm really bad at explaining how I feel to someone else and on paper. I'm worried this will make setting up a fully adjustable suspension a huge nightmare for me.

Thanks Cann!

 

Ok. You guys have all been excellent help. But this conversation is pointless without action. For me, I can sit here and question till the sun goes down and still not have an answer. And for the rest of my life, I'll always question, "what if".

So, I went ahead and ordered the KW V3s. This way, we can put our theories to the test. And finally someone will have tried both coilovers on the same car. Will keep you all updated.

 

KWs are in. I am not sure what setting the garage has mine set at (it's on the soft side), but it's a very good start. I can immediately feel an improvement. The suspension feels a lot tighter and absorbs the bumps with more authority. Finally, there is a significant drop in the bounciness. All in all, I am very pleased with the KWs after 30 minutes of testing. Can't wait to test them out more tomorrow and dial them in even better.

Only problem I have is the PASM failure lights. I'm gonna have to go with the PASM bypass or PIWIS PASM diable. Whatcha guys think? Originally, I thought the bypass will be straightforward, but seems it requires some cutting and modification. The PIWIS disable seems more direct now. Do you guys know the procedure to turn off PASM with a PIWIS?

 

Did you see post #82?

 

I have had both the kw v3"s (non pasm) and the Techart coil overs on my car. The Techart coilovers are just re-valved pss10's. They are vastly different set ups. My car came with the tech art set up. The reason I went to change them to the kw"s is because the sway bar mounts had cracked on one side and sheered off on the other. This occurred under normal driving stress (no accidents). I could not get any help from either company. I put on the kw's and wow what a difference. They are much more performance oriented and provide a far more sure footed driving experience . The bump steer of the car was also greatly reduced. No question they are a better product.

Here is where I came in to my problem. I have the Techart body kit on my car and the kw coil overs lowered my car so much that it was basically undrivable. The front bumper mud flaps would scrape under moderate braking and forget entering a parking lot or going over a speed bump. The shocks were at their maximum ride height. I had no choice but to have the Techart shocks repaired. My local tuner (A&C Performance) had new sway bar mounts milled out of steel rather than the aluminum they came with stock. I am now running the Techart shocks again. The handling is only slightly better than stock and the bump steer is back to being poor. To me the Pss10's and Techart shocks are a poor quality waste of money. Kw makes a much better product if you can deal with the ride height. The Kw's have a much more firm ride but if set up correctly they were not uncomfortable to me. I am really sad that I am stuck with the Techart shocks for now until I can upgrade to Motons. I have the Moton three way adjustable shocks on my track Viper and they are awesome. If not for the ride hight issue I would, with no question run the KW's.

 

Oh yeah I did. All is set now. Turned it off via PIWIS. Works perfectly now! Thanks!

 

v10nut, I totally agree!

After over 10 settings, the KWs are finally set up right and they are awesome!!! Huge improvement. Handling is way improved and ride comfort improved together with the better handling. Whoever said that it's a trade off you can't have both? Even my wife who has been complaining about the car's ride since I switched out the stock suspension finally said my car's "comfortable" again.

I'm so happy I made the switch so far. Can't wait to test them out more.

Highly recommend them.

 

Hi DaBrat

i am also running kwv3 on my turbo S. i'm still trying to find the ideal setting. mind to share what is your front & rear , rebound & compression setting?

i only use the car on weekends for spirited drives. for me, handling is primary importance & comfort is secondary

thank you

 

My settings may not be right for you. It's set pretty soft. But with the crappy roads here, it's perfect.

First, this is what I found as the range for the KWs I have:

Rebound (Front and Rear)
Total 19 clicks
-9 0 +9

Compression (Rear)
Total 17 clicks
-8 0 +8

Compression (Front)
Total 15 clicks
-7 0 +7

Don't ask me why? I didn't believe it too, but after clicking many times, this is what I have.

The setting I have on my car:
Compression (R): -4 | Compression (F): -1
Rebound (R): -4 | Rebound (F): -2

Definitely a softie setup, but for the crappy roads here, it works way better than hard settings. Hard settings just toss the car around a lot. What I have now allows the suspension to absorb the bumps a lot better. Plus, for normal cruising with the family, it's much more tolerable.

Only problem is if I'm going fast and hit bigger bumps, I do hit the bump stops, so I have to really slow down if I see a dip in the road. But I'll face a similar problem with the suspension set hard. It won't hit the bump stops, but it'll jar and toss the car.

Vivid suggested a harder front and I found that to be a great advice. Maybe it's because of the higher spring rate in the rear. Definitely allows better turn in with greater stability. I also like the rebound to be set a little slower on the front allowing the front to remain down on the turns a little longer.

What I found through my testing:
• Anything less than -4 is too soft.
• Front should be harder than rear.
• Rebound should not be more than compression.

Hope this helps. I'm very pleased with my KWs now! Love them!