997.2 Turbo vs GTR
#226
12-03-2009, 01:50 AM
The point about the Focus test is that the Focus's standard Continentals probably aren't that great. Ford was at one point considering R888's as optional tires for the Focus, just as they come standard on the R26.R. How great must the R888's be if they show only 1s improvement? Where's the evidence that the R888 performs just as well as a MPSC or PZero Corsa? Is there any?
How can you not pin down the Lightning Lap results when the GT-R went MORE THAN 3 seconds faster which could just as easily put the GT-R over 3 minutes as it could a high 2:59 and DEFINITELY slower than LOW 2:58.2 that the Z06 ran. That is the sole reason the GT-R beat the Z06.
Z06 ran on a different year. Is there a huge difference between 2:59 (on 7010 A/S's) vs the Z06's 2:58.2? Nope. For all intents and purposes, that's the same lap time. But given that the Z06 weighed 707 lbs less, shouldn't it be much faster? Don't tell me it's the tires, because you have no basis to conclude that the Dunlop 7010 A/S's are better than the Z06's Goodyears. Would you expect the Z06 to turn in the same 2:58.2 time when saddled with an extra 707 lbs?
#227
12-03-2009, 02:38 AM
Your whole argument has been that the GT-R's R-compounds are what make the performance difference. If a similarly-designed R888 is tested and shows noticeable improvement, then what can you say about the GT-R's tires? At this point, we can say nothing, because there is no A vs B testing.
The point about the Focus test is that the Focus's standard Continentals probably aren't that great. Ford was at one point considering R888's as optional tires for the Focus, just as they come standard on the R26.R. How great must the R888's be if they show only 1s improvement? Where's the evidence that the R888 performs just as well as a MPSC or PZero Corsa? Is there any?
There has been NO R888 that has shown improvement over a Dunlop Sp600. There is no if....
I don't know the details of the focus test, driver change, lap conditions, car differences. All answers we have with the GT-R. So this one test you keep harping on was not the same day, not A vs B, and goes against the conventional rule of tire grip. For your one test, there are 1,000 that show R-compounds being much faster.
From what I remembered, the R888's felt squirmier, but there was no difference in lap times.
THIS is your A &B testing....., why will you not acknowledge that?The Dunlops out performed because they were more stable running the lap times, running the same time AND being less squirmy IS outperforming. At the very least, A TIE.
Differences in track conditions months apart can affect those impressions. Unless they're done on the same car on the same day, it's still pretty conclusive. Then again, the R888's might be pretty mediocre R-compounds anyway.
How can you make such statements? Unless the conditions change dramatically, like sand, rain or extreme hot or cold, the times don't deviate far. You can't ASSUME the conditions played a big part in this as it would have been mentioned by any detailed racer. And this was a professional and no such thing was mentioned.
Don't add lib assumptions and what ifs.
A lot? How many? They were only just released not too long ago, at the end of the season. Try again in the spring, when decent comparisons can be made.
Several people have bought them, and many track seasons go late into the year, but start later into the next year. Most will not be A&B testing because the tires require the same wheels and not many people will buy 20" track wheels. Tests will be weeks/months apart.
But you continue to completely ignore the A vs B test same day that is right in front of you.
They said more than 3 seconds. They could just as easily have said "almost 4 seconds," or "over 4 seconds," yet they didn't. I used a number on the far side, closer to 3.5s, rather than 3.1 (which it could very have been).
Z06 ran on a different year. Is there a huge difference between 2:59 (on 7010 A/S's) vs the Z06's 2:58.2? Nope. For all intents and purposes, that's the same lap time. But given that the Z06 weighed 707 lbs less, shouldn't it be much faster? Don't tell me it's the tires, because you have no basis to conclude that the Dunlop 7010 A/S's are better than the Z06's Goodyears. Would you expect the Z06 to turn in the same 2:58.2 time when saddled with an extra 707 lbs?
The point about the Focus test is that the Focus's standard Continentals probably aren't that great. Ford was at one point considering R888's as optional tires for the Focus, just as they come standard on the R26.R. How great must the R888's be if they show only 1s improvement? Where's the evidence that the R888 performs just as well as a MPSC or PZero Corsa? Is there any?
There has been NO R888 that has shown improvement over a Dunlop Sp600. There is no if....
I don't know the details of the focus test, driver change, lap conditions, car differences. All answers we have with the GT-R. So this one test you keep harping on was not the same day, not A vs B, and goes against the conventional rule of tire grip. For your one test, there are 1,000 that show R-compounds being much faster.
From what I remembered, the R888's felt squirmier, but there was no difference in lap times.
THIS is your A &B testing....., why will you not acknowledge that?The Dunlops out performed because they were more stable running the lap times, running the same time AND being less squirmy IS outperforming. At the very least, A TIE.
Differences in track conditions months apart can affect those impressions. Unless they're done on the same car on the same day, it's still pretty conclusive. Then again, the R888's might be pretty mediocre R-compounds anyway.
How can you make such statements? Unless the conditions change dramatically, like sand, rain or extreme hot or cold, the times don't deviate far. You can't ASSUME the conditions played a big part in this as it would have been mentioned by any detailed racer. And this was a professional and no such thing was mentioned.
Don't add lib assumptions and what ifs.
A lot? How many? They were only just released not too long ago, at the end of the season. Try again in the spring, when decent comparisons can be made.
Several people have bought them, and many track seasons go late into the year, but start later into the next year. Most will not be A&B testing because the tires require the same wheels and not many people will buy 20" track wheels. Tests will be weeks/months apart.
But you continue to completely ignore the A vs B test same day that is right in front of you.
They said more than 3 seconds. They could just as easily have said "almost 4 seconds," or "over 4 seconds," yet they didn't. I used a number on the far side, closer to 3.5s, rather than 3.1 (which it could very have been).
Z06 ran on a different year. Is there a huge difference between 2:59 (on 7010 A/S's) vs the Z06's 2:58.2? Nope. For all intents and purposes, that's the same lap time. But given that the Z06 weighed 707 lbs less, shouldn't it be much faster? Don't tell me it's the tires, because you have no basis to conclude that the Dunlop 7010 A/S's are better than the Z06's Goodyears. Would you expect the Z06 to turn in the same 2:58.2 time when saddled with an extra 707 lbs?
For all intents and purposes that's the same lap time????? Just when I thought you were starting to make some sense.
The Z06 has several inherent disadvantages, like you preach about the shifting, corvette's have some of the longest throws there are, losing tons of time on shifts and AWD is a huge advantage on street tires. Not to mention computer aids which without them the driver is challenged more.
Don't try to use power to weight now after you've spent so much time trying to refute it's importance.
#229
12-03-2009, 03:42 AM
#230
12-03-2009, 03:46 AM
Oh about 1s/minute without the ECU. All Nismo items can be specified and fully warranteed. In time that will mean R-Tune engines and the like as well. So much for Michelin PS2s.
#231
12-03-2009, 03:47 AM
So are wheels with yellow stripes round them but you don't see me complaining.
It may surprise you to know that some people do actually still 'buy' cars.
It may surprise you to know that some people do actually still 'buy' cars.
#232
12-03-2009, 03:52 AM
yet still you deny that the GTR is faster.
Specific proof that the 997.2 Turbo would be 3s faster in these tests on PS2s than the already short-lived Bridgestone REs. Proof or STFU.
The AutoBuild 997 has a further 6,000 Euro in options, so unless there's 6000 Euros you can spend on something else other than PS2s on top of PDK and Sport Chrono, it looks like this car did indeed have PS2s.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-autobild.html
If there is something else you can spend 6000 Euro on after PDK and Sport Chrono other than PS2s, then what a rip-off.
The AutoBuild 997 has a further 6,000 Euro in options, so unless there's 6000 Euros you can spend on something else other than PS2s on top of PDK and Sport Chrono, it looks like this car did indeed have PS2s.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-autobild.html
If there is something else you can spend 6000 Euro on after PDK and Sport Chrono other than PS2s, then what a rip-off.
Last edited by BD-; 12-03-2009 at 03:58 AM.
#233
12-03-2009, 05:11 AM
Still waiting for proof on this, heavy. Have you got it?
If you can order it that way, then yes, that'd be stock. What's it worth in terms of lap times?
It said he did only one lap. If there was a practice lap, there was only one. Not multiple laps. In the next issue of Car, they used the same driver and same single flying lap method with the Focus RS and were about 15-20s off the time from Sport Auto. The single flying lap tests are next to useless.
His lines except for one corner were perfect; that doesn't mean he was truly on a 100% pace. And one botched corner can compromise the following corner, or have drastic effect if it leads onto a long straight.
Also, the GT-R is faster on the 'Ring with its VDC off, provided you know how to maximize its potential. Drivers in other cars have said the 'Ring's differing surfaces and bumps can play havoc with a car's stability and traction systems, cutting power unnecessarily when you actually want to slide the car (see Suzuki's driving).
Porsches says the 997.2 GT3's PSM is so unobtrusive, it's actually faster with its electronics on, even in the hands of its engineers and race drivers.
If you can order it that way, then yes, that'd be stock. What's it worth in terms of lap times?
It said he did only one lap. If there was a practice lap, there was only one. Not multiple laps. In the next issue of Car, they used the same driver and same single flying lap method with the Focus RS and were about 15-20s off the time from Sport Auto. The single flying lap tests are next to useless.
His lines except for one corner were perfect; that doesn't mean he was truly on a 100% pace. And one botched corner can compromise the following corner, or have drastic effect if it leads onto a long straight.
Also, the GT-R is faster on the 'Ring with its VDC off, provided you know how to maximize its potential. Drivers in other cars have said the 'Ring's differing surfaces and bumps can play havoc with a car's stability and traction systems, cutting power unnecessarily when you actually want to slide the car (see Suzuki's driving).
Porsches says the 997.2 GT3's PSM is so unobtrusive, it's actually faster with its electronics on, even in the hands of its engineers and race drivers.
#234
12-03-2009, 05:46 AM
yet still you deny that the GTR is faster.
Specific proof that the 997.2 Turbo would be 3s faster in these tests on PS2s than the already short-lived Bridgestone REs. Proof or STFU.
The AutoBuild 997 has a further 6,000 Euro in options, so unless there's 6000 Euros you can spend on something else other than PS2s on top of PDK and Sport Chrono, it looks like this car did indeed have PS2s.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-autobild.html
If there is something else you can spend 6000 Euro on after PDK and Sport Chrono other than PS2s, then what a rip-off.
Specific proof that the 997.2 Turbo would be 3s faster in these tests on PS2s than the already short-lived Bridgestone REs. Proof or STFU.
The AutoBuild 997 has a further 6,000 Euro in options, so unless there's 6000 Euros you can spend on something else other than PS2s on top of PDK and Sport Chrono, it looks like this car did indeed have PS2s.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-autobild.html
If there is something else you can spend 6000 Euro on after PDK and Sport Chrono other than PS2s, then what a rip-off.
BTW how much are you paying for your GT-R?
And when have I said anything about PS2's on the Turbo?
Do you even know what you're talking about right now?
#235
12-03-2009, 06:02 AM
http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...7_GT3_facelift
Goodwood being the only same day test showed 1.5s in the difference. Nice try but no cigar. The facelifted GT3 is barely as fast as a 2008 GTR.
Last edited by BD-; 12-03-2009 at 06:12 AM.
#236
12-03-2009, 06:10 AM
Limp wristed little boy aren't you. 
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s are the only other tyre option, so we're waiting for proof that the 911 Turbo can go 3s faster on these magical tyres.
Do we get proof or just the prelude to another strawman involving corvettes, Le Mans, dragons and goblins? So far we've had 16 pages of strawmans. You're that full of straw they should plant you in a field to scare the crows away .
Do we get proof or just the prelude to another strawman involving corvettes, Le Mans, dragons and goblins? So far we've had 16 pages of strawmans. You're that full of straw they should plant you in a field to scare the crows away .
Last edited by BD-; 12-03-2009 at 06:16 AM.
#237
12-03-2009, 06:28 AM
Limp wristed little boy aren't you.
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s are the only other tyre option, so we're waiting for proof that the 911 Turbo can go 3s faster on these magical tyres.
Do we get proof or just the prelude to another strawman involving corvettes, Le Mans, dragons and goblins? So far we've had 16 pages of strawmans. You're that full of straw they should plant you in a field to scare the crows away .
Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s are the only other tyre option, so we're waiting for proof that the 911 Turbo can go 3s faster on these magical tyres.
Do we get proof or just the prelude to another strawman involving corvettes, Le Mans, dragons and goblins? So far we've had 16 pages of strawmans. You're that full of straw they should plant you in a field to scare the crows away .
Answer the question, when have I said anything about PS2's?
#238
12-03-2009, 06:54 AM
Are you suffering from amnesia? You keep saying that the other optional tyre for 911 Turbo - which is the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 - is capable of going 3s faster. That is the only other tyre option as far as I can see unless you can prove otherwise.
#239
12-03-2009, 07:01 AM
HAHA, prove otherwise, that is your favorite phrase huh?
MPSC have been an optional tire or Porsche's for 10 years now, you must not have gotten the memo. The same MPSC that the GT3 rolls on can go on the Turbo.
I've made it clear that I've been talking about MPSC, NOT PS2's this whole time. Stop acting ignorant. But you may not have to act. Stop BEING ignorant.
MPSC have been an optional tire or Porsche's for 10 years now, you must not have gotten the memo. The same MPSC that the GT3 rolls on can go on the Turbo.
I've made it clear that I've been talking about MPSC, NOT PS2's this whole time. Stop acting ignorant. But you may not have to act. Stop BEING ignorant.
#240
12-03-2009, 09:10 AM
HAHA, prove otherwise, that is your favorite phrase huh?
MPSC have been an optional tire or Porsche's for 10 years now, you must not have gotten the memo. The same MPSC that the GT3 rolls on can go on the Turbo.
I've made it clear that I've been talking about MPSC, NOT PS2's this whole time. Stop acting ignorant. But you may not have to act. Stop BEING ignorant.
MPSC have been an optional tire or Porsche's for 10 years now, you must not have gotten the memo. The same MPSC that the GT3 rolls on can go on the Turbo.
I've made it clear that I've been talking about MPSC, NOT PS2's this whole time. Stop acting ignorant. But you may not have to act. Stop BEING ignorant.
The point is that the Turbo has MORE POWER and LESS WEIGHT than the GTR. Yet you are crying about the GTR rolling on Hoosier racing slicks compared to the Turbo's Hankook Snow tyres?
This is lunacy, the GTR should be able to get an extra bump in horsepower at least, since your so concerned with all things being equal. But even with the power AND weight disadvantage, the GTR beats the Turbo around the track. And all you can do about it is grit your teeeth and reference untold stories inside "track circles"
HeavyFolklore