997.2 Turbo vs GTR
#31
11-28-2009, 11:58 AM
Desperation is in the air.
And more needs to be said about the whopping price difference between the two. Being that we are in a recession I cant belive some of you are acting like the 65 THOUSAND DOLLAR price difference is admissible.
I can understand 20 or even 30 thousand, but 65 grand? Its already been shown that from an engineering standpoint they are equal so what exactly are you paying for? Reminds me of the days Porsche was charging 100k for the trash 996 interiors.
The GTR won heavy, you could never change that...
#32
11-28-2009, 12:09 PM
in about 2 months you will see 'the forum wars' on speed channel where a gtr races a turbo, so all you can finaly see the two cars in the same place/time. hopefuly that will help you guys in getting a definit answer...
anyways i'm tired, just got back from smacking around a s2k and a subaru sti in the mtn roads in my SMARTcar....gota get some rest...yawn
anyways i'm tired, just got back from smacking around a s2k and a subaru sti in the mtn roads in my SMARTcar....gota get some rest...yawn
#33
11-28-2009, 12:17 PM
I'd say not by much given that the new one must already be packing 600hp to get from 60-100mph in 3.6s. Turbos must be damn near maxxed at that. Then you've got various 'new' items to consider like the non-GT1 block. The GTR block has already proven to be good for 1000hp, when not ran on Mobil 1 oil. The new 997 PDK is also in question.
The other point is that you can add power to a 911 but it won't necessarily improve lap times because the chassis is flawed. The GTR on the otherhand? Well just look at the Mines GTR. 1:49 on Fuji Speedway on street tyres. 7s quicker than stock. 997 GT3 Cup cars can't even do that on slicks:
2:55 to 4:47 = 1min52s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ_63FFJbIM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MGC_kTDTH8
http://www.ppi-mines.com/
Face facts, you're way out-classed.
#34
11-28-2009, 12:23 PM
That's why I suggested a test in which each car is driven hard for a couple of hours. I guess the testers don't want to run the risk of deystroying a car loaned to them. I can imagine some of the manufacturers (maybe just one) know(s) this and is glad they don't run such a test. 
This is why I believe such a test is nonsense for road cars. I mean hell, you could out-endure the competition just by driving like Miss Daisy and conserving fuel. I don't see anyone with a Formula 1 team on stand-by to re-fill them in 5s.
It's like where on kid loses, then it's best of 3, he loses again, best of 5 etc.
#35
11-28-2009, 12:41 PM
Honestly BD, why don't you just stop. Not everyone tracks their Porsche's so no one really cares about lap times, but guess what. Even if the GT-R is quicker around a track, Porsche will still have people buying their cars. You sound like a GT-R salesman here. What are you trying to convince here.
#36
11-28-2009, 01:05 PM
Not that assessing road cars as endurance racers makes any sense. The overboost is only good for 1 lap, that's my point. The GTR can do at least 10 laps like that and probably more. The whole lack of endurance thing is very over-stated by people who can't see any other way to beat it. I think 10-20 laps is sufficient for a GT Coupe.
As far as your videos of Porsches, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to show. When that Mines GT-R proves itself in an endurance race against a GT3 Cup car, get back to me.
By the likes of you? Not in this lifetime.
#37
11-28-2009, 01:35 PM
They didnt go out and buy different tyres for the GTR.
Factory Spec GTR > Factory Spec Turbo
Please dont beat around the bush.
#38
11-28-2009, 01:39 PM
Cup tires are "Factory Spec" on the 911 Turbo. The particular example in this comparison test didn't have them. You don't have to go out and buy them aftermarket for the 911 Turbo, you just have to specify them on your order.
#41
11-28-2009, 02:44 PM
Let me try again. I guessthis means the gen. II Cayman S is better than the GTR and 997.2 TT. 
Dang, can't attach it. Auto Express recently ranked the Audi R8 V10 and the gen. II Cayman S above the Nissan GTR. So, to whom do we listen? Or perhaps, most of these rankings and ratings are very subjective.
Dang, can't attach it. Auto Express recently ranked the Audi R8 V10 and the gen. II Cayman S above the Nissan GTR. So, to whom do we listen? Or perhaps, most of these rankings and ratings are very subjective.
Last edited by USCCayman; 11-28-2009 at 02:52 PM.
#42
11-28-2009, 04:12 PM
The 997.2 Turbo on the otherhand is running a non-GT1 block for the first time and a dual clutch transmission. Don't be surprised when a few failures show up, and knowing Porsche, they will be expensive. The GTR engine is proven wrt mods, the new Porsche lump isn't.
The Turbo's overboost function only activates at WOT for 10 seconds. IOW, you don't know what you're talking about nor do you really know how many hot laps a 911 Turbo can pull off. What we do know is that the 2010 911 Turbo can run right with a GT-R, even when equipped with inferior all-season rubber.
I was referring to the fact that the legacy 911 chassis can't be altered to be better than a GTR's. Anything you do to it is like building a house on loose sand. The engine is in the wrong place, simple as.
#43
11-28-2009, 04:26 PM
Perhaps you'd care to show us where they're zero cost options.
#44
11-28-2009, 04:32 PM
BS. If it were so easy, surely Porsche would simply follow suit? BS and you know it. By that logic the 2010 GTR would be about 4-5s/minute quicker than the '08 GTR on Bridgestones. Don't make me laugh.
Why would Porsche follow suit? They didn't conduct this test, the tires are optional. Are you even making any sense to yourself?
It doesn't need to be modded to beat a 997.2 on track. That's been shown relentlessly for 2 years. I was thinking about straightline speed, the one time it's an advantage to have the engine in the back. Fixing straightline speed is easy. Fixing flawed handling isn't. When will you and Porsche admit that the basic design of the 911 chassis is out-dated and flawed? Sure they've made the best of it but the time has come to move on and either switch to a proper MR layout or move to transaxle FR. That's the only way you'll win.
LOL, I see the 911 Chassis winning GT racing in the same Chassis, name for me a series where the GT-R wins with the exact same chassis that's in the street car. No GT-R's with street car Chassis winning any professional racing, ANYWHERE.
Whereas 911's :
- Won Speed GT for the last several years until this year
- Won ALMS for 9 of 10 years vs all the engine layouts you mention
-Won Rolex for several years including beating tube frame purpose built cars.
The GT-R hasn't won jack and you dare criticize the 911 Chassis. You have to be kidding. The GT-R chassis itself is too fat, that's why they went to a series where they didn't have. GOTO racing's car is still 3400 lbs after being gutted.
Yeah, carry on supplying them with tyres you claim are inferior, that way you can always pull a figure like 3s/min out of the air (or somewhere less pleasant) and use it as an excuse. Just think Porsche went to all this trouble with the 997.2 to make up what must be 1.5s/minute in track pace when all they had to do was fit different tyres to a 997.1 to make 3s/min, which by your figure would put them at 7:1X 'ring pace. You can't make this stuff up. Keep it coming chevy.
No, I pulled that from ACTUAL results, like the lightning lap for example, and from several users who've driven on both tires, and people who've driven on the R888's and SP600's back to back.
You can't compare the ring because several miles are straight line, so the tires have no effect therefore the differences will be different.
You lose.
I dunno but it wasn't the same math you used to come up with 3s/min.
Oh the irony.
If it were so easy, surely Porsche would simply follow suit? BS and you know it. By that logic the 2010 GTR would be about 4-5s/minute quicker than the '08 GTR on Bridgestones. Don't make me laugh.Why would Porsche follow suit? They didn't conduct this test, the tires are optional. Are you even making any sense to yourself?
It doesn't need to be modded to beat a 997.2 on track. That's been shown relentlessly for 2 years. I was thinking about straightline speed, the one time it's an advantage to have the engine in the back. Fixing straightline speed is easy. Fixing flawed handling isn't. When will you and Porsche admit that the basic design of the 911 chassis is out-dated and flawed? Sure they've made the best of it but the time has come to move on and either switch to a proper MR layout or move to transaxle FR. That's the only way you'll win.
LOL, I see the 911 Chassis winning GT racing in the same Chassis, name for me a series where the GT-R wins with the exact same chassis that's in the street car. No GT-R's with street car Chassis winning any professional racing, ANYWHERE.
Whereas 911's :
- Won Speed GT for the last several years until this year
- Won ALMS for 9 of 10 years vs all the engine layouts you mention
-Won Rolex for several years including beating tube frame purpose built cars.
The GT-R hasn't won jack and you dare criticize the 911 Chassis. You have to be kidding. The GT-R chassis itself is too fat, that's why they went to a series where they didn't have. GOTO racing's car is still 3400 lbs after being gutted.
Yeah, carry on supplying them with tyres you claim are inferior, that way you can always pull a figure like 3s/min out of the air (or somewhere less pleasant) and use it as an excuse. Just think Porsche went to all this trouble with the 997.2 to make up what must be 1.5s/minute in track pace when all they had to do was fit different tyres to a 997.1 to make 3s/min, which by your figure would put them at 7:1X 'ring pace. You can't make this stuff up. Keep it coming chevy.
No, I pulled that from ACTUAL results, like the lightning lap for example, and from several users who've driven on both tires, and people who've driven on the R888's and SP600's back to back.
You can't compare the ring because several miles are straight line, so the tires have no effect therefore the differences will be different.
You lose.
I dunno but it wasn't the same math you used to come up with 3s/min.
Oh the irony.
You have no clue, but I think everyone here knows that already.
#45
11-28-2009, 04:49 PM
http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests...p?c=26&i=17762
At least the GT1 GTR is heading to compete at the top level rather than the poo classes. Must be tough scraping the bottom of the barrel and counting them as wins.