997 Turbo / GT2 2006–2012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

HELP with Bilsteins!!!

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  #76  
Old 01-11-2010 | 02:16 PM
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My guess is soft material missed by inspection, cut by CNC which doesn't report the material variation resulting in a ductile fracture. Ductile fracture is caused by the stresses exerted on the metal which are too great for the softness of the material, causing it to yield and actually work hardening the metal as it yields. Cracks from fatigue develop, and then these cracks spread rapidly through the metal until you have complete failure.
But its just a guess until someone puts that rod in for hardness measurement. As an example of range, mild steel is ~40,000 PSI tensile strength while hardened steel can be 7-8 times that hard. Too hard is too brittle (like glass) so the engineer must find the alloy and heat treatment with the properties required to achieve the required strength without excessive weight.
 
  #77  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:00 PM
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Man, this thread is just raining on my parade. I got these today and now I'm a bit nervous....

 
  #78  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bonehead
Man, this thread is just raining on my parade. I got these today and now I'm a bit nervous....


Are those new?? The box looks like it's been around the block a few times.
 
  #79  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TTdude
Are those new?? The box looks like it's been around the block a few times.
Nope. Came all the way from Canada. Mounted for 100 miles per the first owner.
 
  #80  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bonehead
Nope. Came all the way from Canada. Mounted for 100 miles per the first owner.
Maybe there's a way to get them "authenticated" and pass spec before you install them.
 
  #81  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bonehead
Nope. Came all the way from Canada. Mounted for 100 miles per the first owner.
I think drkbrent's issues happened right away. At least you'll know that the steel rod won't snap...consider them broken in.

On another note...I think there are dozens upon dozens of Bilstein users on this forum. This is the first mishap I've heard of. With exception of the drop links, they've been a rock solid coilover on and off the track. Not to mention Ruf, TechArt, TPC, and Cargraphic all use Bilstein Damptronics in their aftermarket solutions.
 
  #82  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TTdude
Maybe there's a way to get them "authenticated" and pass spec before you install them.
If you mean 'authenticated' as in make sure they're really Bilsteins, I'm not concerned about that. As far as passing spec, how would one go about doing that? I'm not sure anyone could have predicted the OP's catastrophic failure just by inspection.
 
  #83  
Old 01-11-2010 | 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bbywu
I think drkbrent's issues happened right away. At least you'll know that the steel rod won't snap...consider them broken in.

On another note...I think there are dozens upon dozens of Bilstein users on this forum. This is the first mishap I've heard of. With exception of the drop links, they've been a rock solid coilover on and off the track. Not to mention Ruf, TechArt, TPC, and Cargraphic all use Bilstein Damptronics in their aftermarket solutions.
If his failed after repetitive fatigue, a 'broken in' pair gives me no comfort
But you are correct: we always tend to focus on the one or two isolated negative reports. I'm sure they're fine....
 
  #84  
Old 01-11-2010 | 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Webtool1
My guess is soft material missed by inspection, cut by CNC which doesn't report the material variation resulting in a ductile fracture. Ductile fracture is caused by the stresses exerted on the metal which are too great for the softness of the material, causing it to yield and actually work hardening the metal as it yields. Cracks from fatigue develop, and then these cracks spread rapidly through the metal until you have complete failure.
But its just a guess until someone puts that rod in for hardness measurement. As an example of range, mild steel is ~40,000 PSI tensile strength while hardened steel can be 7-8 times that hard. Too hard is too brittle (like glass) so the engineer must find the alloy and heat treatment with the properties required to achieve the required strength without excessive weight.
Something tells me you do this for a living?
You are discussing faulty material in a PROPERLY installed coilover -- which very well might be the case, but it might not.

Let me just play devil's advocate here for the sake & fun of discussion: What if the force was applied on the rod the way that it was not intended to be? Sideways instead of up and down the shaft, such as when something was loose and now the weight of the car falls on the shaft at an angle?
The closest example I could think of, since I am looking at one , is a chopstick. If you apply force ALONG the shaft, you could never break it. But turn the stick sideways and now bend it --> broken instantly with very little force.

I now am quite interested in what Bilstein has to say. For one, even assuming it is NOT a metal fatigue, I think this points out at least one or two faults on Bilstein part: vague installation manual that's only in German (?), and an installation procedure that is not idiot proof.
 

Last edited by cannga; 01-11-2010 at 07:49 PM.
  #85  
Old 01-11-2010 | 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga
The closest example I could think of, since I am looking at one , is a chop stick.
 
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Last edited by bbywu; 01-11-2010 at 07:40 PM.
  #86  
Old 01-11-2010 | 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TTdude
Are those new?? The box looks like it's been around the block a few times.
Man, my box looked TEN TIMES worse than that! I was so concerned at how rough the box looked that I almost called the vendor, but changed my mind after I opened the box. Maybe I should have, who knows?
 
  #87  
Old 01-11-2010 | 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga
Something tells me you do this for a living?
You are discussing faulty material in a PROPERLY installed coilover -- which very well might be the case, but it might not.

Let me just play devil's advocate here for the sake & fun of discussion: What if the force was applied on the rod the way that it was not intended to be? Sideways instead of up and down the shaft, such as when something was loose and now the weight of the car falls on the shaft at an angle?
The closest example I could think of, since I am looking at one , is a chopstick. If you apply force ALONG the shaft, you could never break it. But turn the stick sideways and now bend it --> broken instantly with very little force.

I now am quite interested in what Bilstein has to say. For one, even assuming it is NOT a metal fatigue, I think this points out at least one or two faults on Bilstein part: vague installation manual that's only in German (?), and an installation procedure that is not idiot proof.
I agree...I am now very interested to see what Bilstein has to say...still interested if someone could tell me how a Porsche tech could install incorrectly? Meaning, what specifically could he have done wrong? I didn't watch him, but I just don't understand the difficulty level in installing shocks, adjusting them using the laser alignment machine, etc. Seems relatively simple to me considering they do dozens and dozens of these installs a year...all with no issues whatsoever EVER! I'm shipping the shock to AWE this week and will report what happens. Stay tuned...
 
  #88  
Old 01-11-2010 | 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bbywu
I think drkbrent's issues happened right away. At least you'll know that the steel rod won't snap...consider them broken in.

On another note...I think there are dozens upon dozens of Bilstein users on this forum. This is the first mishap I've heard of. With exception of the drop links, they've been a rock solid coilover on and off the track. Not to mention Ruf, TechArt, TPC, and Cargraphic all use Bilstein Damptronics in their aftermarket solutions.

A google search pulls up some interesting literature about the company history . They have been around a long time and most of the reading was very positive however I also googled complaints was able to read as well.

So far I have them on two cars and have been very pleased . I can't help but feel a bit nervous seeing Derek's example . I have been trying to muster up the courage to do a one mile event and I'd like to go into it with no doubts.
 
  #89  
Old 01-11-2010 | 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by yrralis1
A google search pulls up some interesting literature about the company history . They have been around a long time and most of the reading was very positive however I also googled complaints was able to read as well.

So far I have them on two cars and have been very pleased . I can't help but feel a bit nervous seeing Derek's example . I have been trying to muster up the courage to do a one mile event and I'd like to go into it with no doubts.
Larry, I tell ya, I actually wouldn't feel bad if I had one of those AWE 750 packages on my car, upgraded droplinks, dog bones, etc. as well as the Bilsteins, was tracking my car big time every weekend, and had 10,000 hardcore track miles on the car, and THEN hit a bump or something and heard the "snap." I would at least have said to myself, "Well, I've modded the crap out of the car and had some great track fun, and it's ok that the shock broke." But these have been on my car hardly ANY time at all (I doubt 100 miles) and the driving has been "weekend to dinner" type stuff. I backed out of my garage (turning the steering wheel to the left) and "pop!" The whole thing is just so absurd! I am VERY tempted to go buy a stock shock and take it to my buddies machine shop where we can examine the two, cut the stock one and examine the inside steel, and post the results here! I have basically decided, after this, that I am not modding the car anymore whatsoever until my warranty period is over. I'm going to take the replacement shock (assuming Bilstein will step up to the plate...which I believe they will) and just enjoy the car for the next few years. God forbid if something else goes wrong with the shocks, I'll trash them, go back to stock, and never look back!
 
  #90  
Old 01-11-2010 | 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by drkbrent
Meaning, what specifically could he have done wrong? I didn't watch him, but I just don't understand the difficulty level in installing shocks, adjusting them using the laser alignment machine, etc.
First, let me say that you've started an excellent thread and I've really enjoyed participating in the discussion. It is a very good reminder for all of us, me included, that ALL mods in our cars are to be taken seriously, and that mods could go wrong.

Now that we have discussed what could have gone wrong with Bilstein (faulty material, poor instruction manual, non idiot-proof installation), let's talk, I mean speculate about the tech. If I were an expert witness for Bilstein, I would concentrate on what you wrote in your very first post of this thread: "They have ***always*** had a little popping noise coming from the front (especially the one that is now screwed) but I just figured they were getting "broken in.""

So whatever the problem was, it probably started very early, and we cannot rule out that it might have started the moment your car left the shop. If (and only if) this is true, it would bring up my first problem with this installation:

1. If indeed the noise started that early, than it is possible the tech had not test driven the car adequately. I would think this is very much his responsibility.
If he didn't hear the noise, yet you heard "always," then perhaps he didn't test adequately. If you heard the noise and told him, and he said this was normal, that's even a BIGGER problem, for him. Did you ever ask him about this noise?

The noise also allows me to speculate LOL further about what could have gone wrong:

2. Inadequate tightening that was tight enough at first for alignment but worked itself loose over time? The popping noise is the top of the shaft moving around from the looseness?

3. Over tightening causing the top of the shaft to shear off partially? The popping nose is the shearing worsening over time?

Please take everything with a table size grain of salt; I am merely an amateur playing the speculating game. The more I look at your pictures, the more frightening they look!
 

Last edited by cannga; 01-11-2010 at 10:20 PM.


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