HELP with Bilsteins!!!
#121
01-14-2010 | 11:46 AM
My original post above had a picture directly from the install guide.
http://www.dvsegmbh.info/PDF/einbau/...M4-Y606A00.PDF
Have not gotten that far, but I am sure it might be attainable from the dealer.
#122
01-14-2010 | 11:48 AM
^^All good points, and yes I was wondering and what it boils down to: Is this something that any reasonably prudent and competent tech would know?
Nevertheless, because it is so easy, a piece of paper in English with red warning, and assuming the washer is a part one has to retrieve from the stock OEM unit, Bilstein should do at least one of the following 2 things:
1. Include the washer with the new unit. And if not,
2. HUGE warning that washer needs to be removed from old unit.
My vote is against Bilstein, based on what I know so far and unless a pro installer PM's and tells me I am all wrong.
Thanks again drkbrent, what a great thread. I can't wait to hear if you see this washer on the other side? Would you please look and let us know?
Nevertheless, because it is so easy, a piece of paper in English with red warning, and assuming the washer is a part one has to retrieve from the stock OEM unit, Bilstein should do at least one of the following 2 things:
1. Include the washer with the new unit. And if not,
2. HUGE warning that washer needs to be removed from old unit.
My vote is against Bilstein, based on what I know so far and unless a pro installer PM's and tells me I am all wrong.
Thanks again drkbrent, what a great thread. I can't wait to hear if you see this washer on the other side? Would you please look and let us know?
#124
01-14-2010 | 01:07 PM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 51
From: Houston, Texas
Rep Power: 18
As an fyi, when I upgraded the suspension on a BMW M-5 a couple of years ago, my tech recommended replacing all the "consumables". As such, I ordered all new fasteners, washers, bushings etc. I remember the dealer asking why I needed to replace parts that dont wear out, but I still went ahead. It was an extra $200 well spent in my opinion. Some of the old washers were somewhat disfigured although not by much. The only way to see that slight distortion was to place the old and new side by side. While the old ones would have worked fine, the added benefit of new shiny parts made me feel good!
#127
01-14-2010 | 02:57 PM
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 26
Ever Feel STUPID!!!
OK, there is now no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the steel used in the manufacture of the stock shocks is of higher quality than the steel used in the aftermarket PSS10 Damptronics! It is as plain as day! The shock on the left is stock, right is aftermarket (both manufactured by Bilstein FYI). Notice the bright, shiny surface of the stock shaft vs. the duller, grayer surface of the aftermarket shaft. I don't know what this means strength wise (maybe forged vs. cast??)...but my gut tells me stock is stronger! I simply know that it is different material. I'd LOVE for a Bilstein rep to chime in here and tell me otherwise! No reasonable person can tell me this is exactly the same steel! I am SO tempted to buy another PSS10 myself, take it and my stock shock to my buddies machine shop, and run various stress and strength tests to the steel shafts!!! How many of you guys would find that interesting? Seriously, respond to this post if that would be of interest to you. For the first time, I'm actually starting to get pissed! Also, I have posted pictures of the box the PSS10's came in...pretty rough! Please note the box doesn't particularly bother me, it's what's IN the box that is important to me (some of you simply posted questions about the shape of the box, so I wanted to show you). Also note that AWE (my vendor) has been nothing but professional in this matter (they didn't manufacture the product, Bilstein did). I will be shipping the bum shock to them tomorrow.
#128
01-14-2010 | 03:11 PM
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 181
From: ca
Rep Power: 30
Mike - thx for the great post. As someone who has recently purchased the damptronics but yet to get them installed, I have been watching the thread. It certainly appears to be install error but surprising and disappointing that a missing washer can cause such catastrophic damage.
#129
01-14-2010 | 03:33 PM
Mike - thx for the great post. As someone who has recently purchased the damptronics but yet to get them installed, I have been watching the thread. It certainly appears to be install error but surprising and disappointing that a missing washer can cause such catastrophic damage.
#130
01-14-2010 | 08:57 PM
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 26
This is what I mentioned before: I know what the pros are thinking, they just can't be quoted because they don't want to be involved. I would think most people who have been following this thread would agree the evidences (popping noise from day 1, etc.) and pros' opinions are pointing more and more towards an installation problem. That said, I still think Bilstein could do better, starting with a warning in English.
BTW, I think there is a chance they could replace the coilover even though it's an installation problem -- just me speculating, based on my experience with them (a huge operation with truly OUTSTANDING customer service).
Regarding whether stock Bilstein (yes Bilstein makes the stock unit, which is of cheaper material and design) could be more durable than Damptronic Bilstein:
1. Could be true -- race components emphasize light weight; an iron wheel would be much more "durable" than aluminum. This doesn't mean that you could install an aluminum wheel with one bolt and when it falls off, blame problem on the lack of strength.
2. It could STILL be a defective material in the Bilstein, but as others have mentioned, not a good idea to judge strength by look! Maybe by pro's in that field, but most definitely not by us.
dkbrent, I think at this point, instead of discussing strength based on external look -- that argument is not going anywhere, it would be more helpful and interesting to put the emphasis on the installer also: What could he have done wrong with the installation and how could others prevent this? He may be denying responsibility, a natural self-protective reaction
, but as I have mentioned from the very beginning: My vote is 10 to 1 it's an installation problem.
Regarding running strength test on another Bilstein: Why? Just look around this forum's cars with Bilstein on. They are passing your test right there. I feel for you but...Bilstein rep will not chime in to comment because someone on some internet forum is thinking one steel is stronger than another because it's more shiny.
They don't have time or manpower to monitor every user's speculative (me guilty as well) comment around the world. And especially not when installation error could easily be the one and only problem here.
BTW, I think there is a chance they could replace the coilover even though it's an installation problem -- just me speculating, based on my experience with them (a huge operation with truly OUTSTANDING customer service).
Regarding whether stock Bilstein (yes Bilstein makes the stock unit, which is of cheaper material and design) could be more durable than Damptronic Bilstein:
1. Could be true -- race components emphasize light weight; an iron wheel would be much more "durable" than aluminum. This doesn't mean that you could install an aluminum wheel with one bolt and when it falls off, blame problem on the lack of strength.
2. It could STILL be a defective material in the Bilstein, but as others have mentioned, not a good idea to judge strength by look! Maybe by pro's in that field, but most definitely not by us.
dkbrent, I think at this point, instead of discussing strength based on external look -- that argument is not going anywhere, it would be more helpful and interesting to put the emphasis on the installer also: What could he have done wrong with the installation and how could others prevent this? He may be denying responsibility, a natural self-protective reaction
, but as I have mentioned from the very beginning: My vote is 10 to 1 it's an installation problem.Regarding running strength test on another Bilstein: Why? Just look around this forum's cars with Bilstein on. They are passing your test right there. I feel for you but...Bilstein rep will not chime in to comment because someone on some internet forum is thinking one steel is stronger than another because it's more shiny.
They don't have time or manpower to monitor every user's speculative (me guilty as well) comment around the world. And especially not when installation error could easily be the one and only problem here.
#131
01-14-2010 | 09:09 PM
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 26
Well - at this point I do not think emotional reasoning will resolve anything. I feel that his priority ought to be to hedge the loss , get the car fixed, and maintain a positive outlook . After all he bought this car to have years of enjoyment .
1) Get the car back to stock to make it home safely.
2) I would not drive the car too far even stock without inspection. If the installer took the time to go to his house to help him it sounds like his heart is in the right place but a second opinion can't hurt.
3) Start over .
4) Even if he remains stock be confident with the car and if he modifies it be confident with those working on it.
The car is ok . He is ok . Whatever time, stress and financial loss can be recoved --that would be great .
Derek --you have meany years to enjoy the car . Take the time to fix it and heal.
1) Get the car back to stock to make it home safely.
2) I would not drive the car too far even stock without inspection. If the installer took the time to go to his house to help him it sounds like his heart is in the right place but a second opinion can't hurt.
3) Start over .
4) Even if he remains stock be confident with the car and if he modifies it be confident with those working on it.
The car is ok . He is ok . Whatever time, stress and financial loss can be recoved --that would be great .
Derek --you have meany years to enjoy the car . Take the time to fix it and heal.
#132
01-14-2010 | 09:13 PM
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,116
From: Palos Verdes
Rep Power: 254
Hi Derek, I agree with you. We should wait and see what Bilstein has to say, but like you, I do not like this washer business too much, and if it were true, then Bilstein should modify the packaging to include the washer or a warning.
For me, one key to this puzzle is if you could have the tech look at the OTHER coilover, the one that is still working.
1. If good side has washer, implying your tech knew about it, then it is, not definitely, but more likely that the failed side has washer as well. Failure is more likely to be something else, like over-torquing.
2. If other side does NOT have washer, then the washer causing failure has more credibility.
3. Also note, whether it was lack of washer causing failure, we have ruled out another cause, like over-torquing.
For me, one key to this puzzle is if you could have the tech look at the OTHER coilover, the one that is still working.
1. If good side has washer, implying your tech knew about it, then it is, not definitely, but more likely that the failed side has washer as well. Failure is more likely to be something else, like over-torquing.
2. If other side does NOT have washer, then the washer causing failure has more credibility.
3. Also note, whether it was lack of washer causing failure, we have ruled out another cause, like over-torquing.
Last edited by cannga; 01-14-2010 at 09:29 PM.
#133
01-14-2010 | 09:32 PM
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 26
Hi Derek, I agree with you. We should wait and see what Bilstein has to say, but like you, I do not like this washer business too much, and if it were true, then Bilstein should modify the packaging to include the washer or a warning.
For me, one key to this puzzle is if you could have the tech look at the OTHER coilover, the one that is still working.
1. If good side has washer, implying your tech knew about it, then it is, not definitely, but more likely that the failed side has washer as well. Failure is more likely to be something else, like over-torquing.
2. If other side does NOT have washer, then the washer causing failure has more credibility.
3. Also note, whether it was lack of washer causing failure, we have ruled out another cause, like over-torquing.
For me, one key to this puzzle is if you could have the tech look at the OTHER coilover, the one that is still working.
1. If good side has washer, implying your tech knew about it, then it is, not definitely, but more likely that the failed side has washer as well. Failure is more likely to be something else, like over-torquing.
2. If other side does NOT have washer, then the washer causing failure has more credibility.
3. Also note, whether it was lack of washer causing failure, we have ruled out another cause, like over-torquing.
#134
01-14-2010 | 09:36 PM
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,116
From: Palos Verdes
Rep Power: 254
Mike as always you are a GREAT resource for this forum. Thank you. I have five questions that I think current Bilstein owners would appreciate your input very much:
1. I don't install these things so don't have a feel for how easy it is to miss this washer. So... in your opinion how easy it is to miss transferring this washer? Is it something that any experienced tech will likely know?
2. It cannot be easy to miss, no? How else to explain the fact that majority of Bilstein cars are doing fine on the road?
3. If you don't have the washer, for sure the car will fail? Or this failure requires BOTH missing washer AND over-torquing?
4. I am asking NOT to be critical of drbrent's tech at all, but for a very relevant issue: Should all of us who have Bilstein in our cars have out techs look at our installation?
5. Pretty please post picture of washer when you have a chance? TIA.
1. I don't install these things so don't have a feel for how easy it is to miss this washer. So... in your opinion how easy it is to miss transferring this washer? Is it something that any experienced tech will likely know?
2. It cannot be easy to miss, no? How else to explain the fact that majority of Bilstein cars are doing fine on the road?
3. If you don't have the washer, for sure the car will fail? Or this failure requires BOTH missing washer AND over-torquing?
4. I am asking NOT to be critical of drbrent's tech at all, but for a very relevant issue: Should all of us who have Bilstein in our cars have out techs look at our installation?
5. Pretty please post picture of washer when you have a chance? TIA.
That is correct. It is an OEM parts that needs to be transfered over to the aftermarket Bilstein strut.
My original post above had a picture directly from the install guide.
http://www.dvsegmbh.info/PDF/einbau/...M4-Y606A00.PDF
Have not gotten that far, but I am sure it might be attainable from the dealer.
My original post above had a picture directly from the install guide.
http://www.dvsegmbh.info/PDF/einbau/...M4-Y606A00.PDF
Have not gotten that far, but I am sure it might be attainable from the dealer.
Last edited by cannga; 01-14-2010 at 10:09 PM.
#135
01-14-2010 | 09:40 PM
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,107
From: South Florida
Rep Power: 527
Hey Larry, yep, your words are my feeling as usual...my plan is as follows: I have a feeling I'll get hosed one way or another...my gut tells me Bilstein will deny liability (understandable from their point of view); my installer insists he did the installation correctly (understandable from his point of view); I still feel the quality of the steel is not good (simply looking at its porous nature freaks me out!! Just my OPINION...); I will pay for another PSS10 out of my own pocket if nobody takes care of me, will have it installed by my Porsche dealer (unless someone can tell me of a Porsche EXPERT in the Baton Rouge area); enjoy the car...and if it breaks again...go back to stock and enjoy the car in its stock form, never to modify a single thing again.
It's a wait and see whether Bilstein takes your current parts back . Part of me thinks they would want all your parts back just to factor out any doubts they might have. Obviously -your thread raised some awareness and exposure and it would be in their best interest I imagine to disprove it with your actual parts , retain customer loyalty seeing that you are pleased , and maybe even suggest an installer close to you .
How they handle this -- can turn this all positive for all of you guys --in my opinion . And BTW --I have seen other companies go the extra distance. It makes sense to me that anyone would recognize that most high end car owners are accustomed to spending money in the direction of top shelf customer service.
Myself --I would want new coil overs and a new installer . In short --basically start over . Every other aspect of the car is fine and once you are up and running then you may even find that these coil overs are really great . At least that's how I like mine . I have them on both my Porsches. I am keeping them too .
Good luck .