Softronic Software Criticism
#76
04-20-2010 | 04:31 PM
..........
Last edited by vividracing; 04-20-2010 at 04:34 PM.
#77
04-20-2010 | 08:54 PM
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,116
From: Palos Verdes
Rep Power: 254
Hi Can, I'm not a tuner as you know but have had extensive conversations in the past with my tuner about this when selecting which tuner to go with for my set-up. I believe DaveW comment is over exaggerated or else there would be a lot of problems showing up both in the 996tt and 997tt forums. There are a large number of 996tts with Softronic tunes and a growing number of happy customers with 997tts. You have a GIAC flashloader that allows you to load whatever octane file you want. Each file will have a different threshold for knock safety whereas a tune like mine will have all the maps, including race. In order for you to take advantage of race fuel, you have to load the race fuel map. For me, I just dump in some race gas and the ECU will automatically adjust. DaveW makes the claim that if you run 100 octane one day and then 91 the next, you're going to get a bunch of harmful knock. That is simply not true. The ECU won't allow it. If what DaveW says is accurate then we would be seeing problems with stock programming, Softronic tune, etc. and we just don't see that.
As far as your 91 tune being safer than stock, I'm not so sure I would agree. You are getting more power out of your GIAC tune so it is tuned more aggressively than stock. The knock sensors are even more critical here.
As far as your 91 tune being safer than stock, I'm not so sure I would agree. You are getting more power out of your GIAC tune so it is tuned more aggressively than stock. The knock sensors are even more critical here.
With ECU tune that does automatically adjust, I assume the timing map switch occurs immediately when knocks are detected? In other words, no knock and no risk involved?
#78
04-20-2010 | 11:47 PM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,319
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 244
<O
</O
Last edited by TTdude; 04-21-2010 at 12:31 AM.
#79
04-21-2010 | 07:27 AM
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,116
From: Palos Verdes
Rep Power: 254
Hi Can, As far as my understanding goes, the ECU would never let timing get to the point where you hear harmful knock. It pulls back immediately. I trust my tuner (Todd K) 100%, you have to with these higher HP builds. Also, there are different degrees of knock, and the knock sensors are quite sensitive that the smallest degree of knock would be detected and timing would be pulled back. You can see this in one of my datalogs. In mid-range my timing runs around 21-26 deg and if I had better fuel, it would run around 18.
<o></o>
<o>
</o>Do the other well known US tuners (for example GIAC, EVOMS, Swizer, Protomotive, etc.) use a different approach from Softtronic as far as the programming approach, that was mentioned in DaveW's first post?
Last edited by cannga; 04-21-2010 at 07:40 AM.
#80
04-21-2010 | 09:22 AM
Cannaga thats a funny question...
#81
04-21-2010 | 09:47 AM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 715
From: Boston/Los Angeles
Rep Power: 57
Yes they do use a different approach. They use static maps that have had thier values edited and do not rely on the KS to choose which map to run.
Saying this isn't a problem because we don't see more failures is a fallacy, it like saying smoking in teens isn't a problem because their death rate is low. It not like one bad knock will blow your motor. It the accumulation of micro fractures overtime ond the excessive bearing wear that leadsvto eventual premature failure. But it's long term.
Tho OP asked for a criticizm, I threw one out there that most people don't know of. The software works and shows decent power gains. It's easy to write off the ks issue as a nonissue just like many people do with smoking. But if it were a fundamentally sound approach all the tuners would be using it. They are not.
Saying this isn't a problem because we don't see more failures is a fallacy, it like saying smoking in teens isn't a problem because their death rate is low. It not like one bad knock will blow your motor. It the accumulation of micro fractures overtime ond the excessive bearing wear that leadsvto eventual premature failure. But it's long term.
Tho OP asked for a criticizm, I threw one out there that most people don't know of. The software works and shows decent power gains. It's easy to write off the ks issue as a nonissue just like many people do with smoking. But if it were a fundamentally sound approach all the tuners would be using it. They are not.
#82
04-21-2010 | 10:05 AM
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,116
From: Palos Verdes
Rep Power: 254
Yes they do use a different approach. They use static maps that have had thier values edited and do not rely on the KS to choose which map to run.
Saying this isn't a problem because we don't see more failures is a fallacy, it like saying smoking in teens isn't a problem because their death rate is low. It not like one bad knock will blow your motor. It the accumulation of micro fractures overtime ond the excessive bearing wear that leadsvto eventual premature failure. But it's long term.
Tho OP asked for a criticizm, I threw one out there that most people don't know of. The software works and shows decent power gains. It's easy to write off the ks issue as a nonissue just like many people do with smoking. But if it were a fundamentally sound approach all the tuners would be using it. They are not.
Saying this isn't a problem because we don't see more failures is a fallacy, it like saying smoking in teens isn't a problem because their death rate is low. It not like one bad knock will blow your motor. It the accumulation of micro fractures overtime ond the excessive bearing wear that leadsvto eventual premature failure. But it's long term.
Tho OP asked for a criticizm, I threw one out there that most people don't know of. The software works and shows decent power gains. It's easy to write off the ks issue as a nonissue just like many people do with smoking. But if it were a fundamentally sound approach all the tuners would be using it. They are not.
2. Is this different approach the reason why Softronic is not readily detectable by dealers, even using PIWIS?
Last edited by cannga; 04-21-2010 at 10:15 AM.
#83
04-21-2010 | 10:14 AM
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,253
From: Reno, NV
Rep Power: 142
If you engine fails, it is not the dealers you have to worry about but rather the blokes in Deutschland. I am pretty sure they take engine failures very seriously and poke around with more than PIWIS in their root cause analysis. Engines with major issues come out and go straight to Germany - I know that is exactly what happened to the GT3 engine pulled by my dealership.
#84
04-21-2010 | 10:37 AM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,319
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 244
Proto, Switzer, FVD, TPC all use "static" maps??? I don't think so. Again, this is all speculation. Stock uses a dynamic mapping. It is no way proven that one tuner's approach leads to more harmful deterioration than anothers. Just ask Keitha, he has been running very high power ever since he first got his car. When he recently took the engine apart, it looked perfect. No knock damage. Besides, even static maps utilize knock sensors. If this provokes a response from tuners then all the better. Companies like GIAC and Evomsit parcel out their maps so they can charge you for each map, valet kill, race map, stock program, flash loader, etc...this is not a knock against their products, it's just a marketing thing.
#85
04-21-2010 | 11:05 AM
That is pretty cool how some of you can tell everyone else how our tunes work and what we run, considering there is a slim chance you have even looked at our files or seen what we do in person to know how we do it. I do not have the world's best memory but I don't think I have ever told anyone on here how we do what we do.
Give us a call if you would like some insight on our packages and what we have available. We offer the best value for your money, not the lowest price, but the best value.
By the way, we do cable flashing, we have been for a while now. Scott is a great guy and does great work, and so does Tym.
JM $.02
Give us a call if you would like some insight on our packages and what we have available. We offer the best value for your money, not the lowest price, but the best value.
By the way, we do cable flashing, we have been for a while now. Scott is a great guy and does great work, and so does Tym.
JM $.02
#86
04-21-2010 | 11:08 AM
Neil... I know what you ate for breakfast too! Well said.
#87
04-21-2010 | 11:25 AM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,319
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 244
The details of engine management mapping are (obviously) proprietary to each tuner. I think it is safe to say that what aftermarket tunes have in common is they set different boost levels for different octanes. The stock one has variables in there for high/low octane. Here in the US, we are on the low octane charts which is probably why you see posts where some say they are getting 1.2 bar vs .9 bar with SC and asking what's wrong.
#88
04-21-2010 | 12:15 PM
Thanks Dan, and I know what you did last summer... 
#89
04-21-2010 | 12:31 PM
Registered User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,778
From: Cyprus
Rep Power: 110
#90
04-21-2010 | 01:51 PM