Official APR Tuned 997TT FAQ Thread......
#91
06-15-2010, 08:18 PM
You keep bringing Skandalis in here because all he reads is 1 bar. His car clearly puts out more than 1bar to achieve the power APR suggests.
Firstly Matthew you single me out on this point yet there are many other members that share the same opinion that would also like some clarity/closure that would either support Skand's claim or debunk it once and for all.
I for one totally agree that the Skandalis's APR 1 bar boost claim is not plausible however earlier on in the APR thread you Matthew were very quick to jump in with Skandalis to second his motion acknowledging that all other tunes only had the option of high boost to draw upon to make their power whereas APR did not require such boost levels, instead had some special tuning intelligence that allowed them the use of a far moderate level of boost to acheive the same/and even better outcome as all others.
As the thead progressed from that particular post you then abandoned support for Skand's prior account of how the APR tune could produce big power with low boost and then started offering information confirming APR's tune also uses the same high boost levels as all others. It was this admission of higher boost levels being used that then bought about my questioning exactly where IS APR's tune better if the boost is the same as other tuners. And so it all progressed....
You also seem to have a rebuttal for every answer keith gives which are basically an excuse for you not wanting to try the software which is FREE by the way.
Firstly Matthew i'm not looking for any excuse to not to try the tune. The ship has sailed for me on my current vehicle. The bottom line on that is there is really no point now as i am very satisfied with the Protomotive tune. If i wasnt happy i may well be on your doorstep to try it.
For me its not about rebuking Keiths answers simply for the sake of rebuttal. My questions and responses, whilst rather provocative, were given to provoke responses from APR and yourself where i believed further clarity was certainly warranted and had not been forthcomming. And I very much doubt whether I would have recieved the same level of responses and information had i not been so provocative. So I make no appologies for that Matthew. In fact the information and responses proceeding this "provocative probing" of mine should have advantaged APR's position (if they were truly clever enough), as prior too you guys had absolutely ZIP out there/here on the web. If APR has since chosen to squander this valuable opportunity by providing inacurate and flawed info which has bought about further doubt and scrutiny from other members then i can hardly be held responsible for that debacle. That was Keith's choice to provide flawed info on not only one occassion now but two I believe?? Frankly thats not a very good sign and does not bode well for the credibility of what is being said by Keith about the 997tt APR tune.
If APR was truly as smart as they would like everyone to believe they are then they would have made a far better fist out this thread than what they have currently managed to muster. Thats a shame. Opportunities like this dont come about every day, particularly for a company that has to date managed such poor market penetration. Im not going to spoon feed them what to do (although i pretty well have so far).
I also believe the dyno testing, the performance testing, the dura data logging should all go a long way toward helping yourselves....but if its going to be done in bad spirit or under any form of duress then dont bother.
I'm also starting to wonder why your responding the way you are about APR's software when you clearly have stated that you have ZERO interest in running APR software.
No need to wonder Matthew (see above response).
Furthermore, my constant proding and probing was also due to the fact there was absolutely zero information out there (anywhere) when i attempted to complete my due diligence on the APR tune.
For every reason you have given me for not wanting to try the APR software I have given you a legitimate answer that alleviates all your concerns.
Firstly Matthew you single me out on this point yet there are many other members that share the same opinion that would also like some clarity/closure that would either support Skand's claim or debunk it once and for all.
I for one totally agree that the Skandalis's APR 1 bar boost claim is not plausible however earlier on in the APR thread you Matthew were very quick to jump in with Skandalis to second his motion acknowledging that all other tunes only had the option of high boost to draw upon to make their power whereas APR did not require such boost levels, instead had some special tuning intelligence that allowed them the use of a far moderate level of boost to acheive the same/and even better outcome as all others.
As the thead progressed from that particular post you then abandoned support for Skand's prior account of how the APR tune could produce big power with low boost and then started offering information confirming APR's tune also uses the same high boost levels as all others. It was this admission of higher boost levels being used that then bought about my questioning exactly where IS APR's tune better if the boost is the same as other tuners. And so it all progressed....
You also seem to have a rebuttal for every answer keith gives which are basically an excuse for you not wanting to try the software which is FREE by the way.
Firstly Matthew i'm not looking for any excuse to not to try the tune. The ship has sailed for me on my current vehicle. The bottom line on that is there is really no point now as i am very satisfied with the Protomotive tune. If i wasnt happy i may well be on your doorstep to try it.
For me its not about rebuking Keiths answers simply for the sake of rebuttal. My questions and responses, whilst rather provocative, were given to provoke responses from APR and yourself where i believed further clarity was certainly warranted and had not been forthcomming. And I very much doubt whether I would have recieved the same level of responses and information had i not been so provocative. So I make no appologies for that Matthew. In fact the information and responses proceeding this "provocative probing" of mine should have advantaged APR's position (if they were truly clever enough), as prior too you guys had absolutely ZIP out there/here on the web. If APR has since chosen to squander this valuable opportunity by providing inacurate and flawed info which has bought about further doubt and scrutiny from other members then i can hardly be held responsible for that debacle. That was Keith's choice to provide flawed info on not only one occassion now but two I believe?? Frankly thats not a very good sign and does not bode well for the credibility of what is being said by Keith about the 997tt APR tune.
If APR was truly as smart as they would like everyone to believe they are then they would have made a far better fist out this thread than what they have currently managed to muster. Thats a shame. Opportunities like this dont come about every day, particularly for a company that has to date managed such poor market penetration. Im not going to spoon feed them what to do (although i pretty well have so far).
I also believe the dyno testing, the performance testing, the dura data logging should all go a long way toward helping yourselves....but if its going to be done in bad spirit or under any form of duress then dont bother.
I'm also starting to wonder why your responding the way you are about APR's software when you clearly have stated that you have ZERO interest in running APR software.
No need to wonder Matthew (see above response).
Furthermore, my constant proding and probing was also due to the fact there was absolutely zero information out there (anywhere) when i attempted to complete my due diligence on the APR tune.
For every reason you have given me for not wanting to try the APR software I have given you a legitimate answer that alleviates all your concerns.
Bogg and everyone else,
I can't answer why his car is reading only 1 bar. What I can say is that I will be testing a US sold car on US soil with US fuel and these are the levels and scenarios I have access to.
Great!! And will be keen to see the data.
Cars will be listed from fastest to slowest.
997TT APR, TUBI RACE, 100 fuel
Will test trap times in stock mode.
Will test trap times in 93 mode.
Will test traimes in 100 mode.
997TT APR, Speedart 200Cell cats, 93 Fuel
Will test in stock mode.
Will test in 93 mode.
997TT Cab, APR, Stock Exhaust, 93 Fuel
Will test in stock mode.
Will test in 93 mode.
I think for now we should just let skandalis just enjoy his car. I'm sure everyone cares more about a car here on US soil that was sold and registered here. Would you all agree?
I can't answer why his car is reading only 1 bar. What I can say is that I will be testing a US sold car on US soil with US fuel and these are the levels and scenarios I have access to.
Great!! And will be keen to see the data.
Cars will be listed from fastest to slowest.
997TT APR, TUBI RACE, 100 fuel
Will test trap times in stock mode.
Will test trap times in 93 mode.
Will test traimes in 100 mode.
997TT APR, Speedart 200Cell cats, 93 Fuel
Will test in stock mode.
Will test in 93 mode.
997TT Cab, APR, Stock Exhaust, 93 Fuel
Will test in stock mode.
Will test in 93 mode.
I think for now we should just let skandalis just enjoy his car. I'm sure everyone cares more about a car here on US soil that was sold and registered here. Would you all agree?
My understanding is that most of the member aggravation with this APR tune began at the time Skandalis came forward singing the praises of his APR miracle tune which only uses 1 bar boost which allows him to so easily flogg the pants off all the others with tunes of much higher boost and with big turbos etc. And if it wasnt for this i very much doubt that this entire thread would have been given the legs it has been given to date. So, clarity is in order along with as much data as possible to support the claim the tune is in fact superior to all other offerings.
Speed21 again you keep bringing up another rebuttal about the price, for those who dont know by now we are offering a group rate for $2500 or you can try it free for 6 hours. If you can't tell in 6 hours or pay for it and try it for 30 days to see if you like it or not then nothing will satisfy your needs.
No you have taken what i wrote out of context. What I meant was the tune at 3300.00 was too high. 2500 is now getting closer to the money.
I also think the sales pitch of "group rate" and "for this time only" is a bit of a toss. Any more than 2500 and your out of the ball park.
Is there anything I can do to atleast get you to try this darn software for a minute?
Next time round (991TT) I may give it a look if youve got your info in order and the price is right.
Perhaps you may have a point and that APR should offer a detuned version of what they have right now to make the clutch last longer.
Not a bad option. Offer an apples for apples at a price and then step up to another stage that requires a clutch.
Or perhaps most just need to inspect their clutches before they purchase a used car. TJclay is the only person I know who has blown out his clutch running APR software.
Sorry that is wrong.
There are two.
Matthew it wouldnt matter if it was 1 or 2 or whatever. You havent got enough of these things out in the market to be able to make much of a call on anything. Thats the problem for you guys....and APR.
The clients car I dyno'd last week who runs nothing short of 100 fuel. He burnt his clutch out because he was going to the dragstrip once a month for 3 or 4 months straight doing 4 or 5 passes each event. Sometimes more when he rents the track out himself. The stock clutch is not made to drag race period even at stock power levels. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Thats actually pretty impressive of the stock clutch.
Number two is TJCLAY and he purchased a used 997T so we have to throw him out because we have no way of knowing the status of his clutch at the time of purchase.
All this was explained to you speed21 in our original PM conversations before you purchased the promotive tune.
Yes it was explained. You said the stock clutch will need replacing to get the best out of the tune as it wont last very long if you get up it. It stands to reason that if the tune makes 865nms of torque the stock clutch isnt going to hold that.
Whats the stock clutch rated at Matthew?? Lets hear please ???
Again this goes out to everyone who wants to try the APR software, if your not happy with the results I will flash your car back to stock and purchase another brand of your choice or give you your money back 100%. No one else offers this type of service.
No you have taken what i wrote out of context. What I meant was the tune at 3300.00 was too high. 2500 is now getting closer to the money.
I also think the sales pitch of "group rate" and "for this time only" is a bit of a toss. Any more than 2500 and your out of the ball park.
Is there anything I can do to atleast get you to try this darn software for a minute?
Next time round (991TT) I may give it a look if youve got your info in order and the price is right.
Perhaps you may have a point and that APR should offer a detuned version of what they have right now to make the clutch last longer.
Not a bad option. Offer an apples for apples at a price and then step up to another stage that requires a clutch.
Or perhaps most just need to inspect their clutches before they purchase a used car. TJclay is the only person I know who has blown out his clutch running APR software.
Sorry that is wrong.
There are two.
Matthew it wouldnt matter if it was 1 or 2 or whatever. You havent got enough of these things out in the market to be able to make much of a call on anything. Thats the problem for you guys....and APR.
The clients car I dyno'd last week who runs nothing short of 100 fuel. He burnt his clutch out because he was going to the dragstrip once a month for 3 or 4 months straight doing 4 or 5 passes each event. Sometimes more when he rents the track out himself. The stock clutch is not made to drag race period even at stock power levels. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Thats actually pretty impressive of the stock clutch.
Number two is TJCLAY and he purchased a used 997T so we have to throw him out because we have no way of knowing the status of his clutch at the time of purchase.
All this was explained to you speed21 in our original PM conversations before you purchased the promotive tune.
Yes it was explained. You said the stock clutch will need replacing to get the best out of the tune as it wont last very long if you get up it. It stands to reason that if the tune makes 865nms of torque the stock clutch isnt going to hold that.
Whats the stock clutch rated at Matthew?? Lets hear please ???
Again this goes out to everyone who wants to try the APR software, if your not happy with the results I will flash your car back to stock and purchase another brand of your choice or give you your money back 100%. No one else offers this type of service.
Last edited by speed21; 06-15-2010 at 09:22 PM.
#92
06-15-2010, 09:12 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,666
Rep Power: 235 
I'm looking forward to seeing some data (trap speeds, 60-130, etc...) for the APR tune with just 200cell exhaust and 93 octane. If it truly can get sub 7 second 60-130 times on a 6speed car in that scenario then I might just forget to send Protomotive an email...
#93
06-15-2010, 09:50 PM
.
#94
06-15-2010, 10:18 PM
speed21...
you made me very happy that you wont have a problem if my logs are over 1bar...
that was a relief for me...
its good to have another member here with APr tune that sees the same boost as me,and also is faster than other 997TT cars,as mine...
Finally i dont expect you to understand the way APR flash operates,since you did not understand my PM regarding start up noise...I really do not know how many times should i write boost is 1bar to stop questioning yourself.I believe i should write it everyday...at least two times...
you made me very happy that you wont have a problem if my logs are over 1bar...
that was a relief for me...its good to have another member here with APr tune that sees the same boost as me,and also is faster than other 997TT cars,as mine...
Finally i dont expect you to understand the way APR flash operates,since you did not understand my PM regarding start up noise...I really do not know how many times should i write boost is 1bar to stop questioning yourself.I believe i should write it everyday...at least two times...
#95
06-15-2010, 10:53 PM
TT i recall the photos of Skands car he posted way back and it had SC.
I also recall an earlier conversation with the APR agent out here who advised the tune had only the one setting so if you have SC then that tune setting became the same as normal mode. That also may well account for the boost gauge defaulting to the normal mode readout which as you know only ever shows 1 bar max in normal, 1.2 in SC regardless of how much boost is going in.
Matthew can you clarify or confirm this? That there is only the one tune setting shared in both normal and SC modes.
Other thing Matthew, could you please answer that question i asked re the youtube clip demonstarting the switching function on the cruise control stalk where at the very end it said you need to clear the codes that come up during switching with durametric. Do you really need a durametric cable and software to clear these fault codes?
I also recall an earlier conversation with the APR agent out here who advised the tune had only the one setting so if you have SC then that tune setting became the same as normal mode. That also may well account for the boost gauge defaulting to the normal mode readout which as you know only ever shows 1 bar max in normal, 1.2 in SC regardless of how much boost is going in.
Matthew can you clarify or confirm this? That there is only the one tune setting shared in both normal and SC modes.
Other thing Matthew, could you please answer that question i asked re the youtube clip demonstarting the switching function on the cruise control stalk where at the very end it said you need to clear the codes that come up during switching with durametric. Do you really need a durametric cable and software to clear these fault codes?
#96
06-16-2010, 07:40 AM
To everyone concerned,
I can officially confirm that the sport mode button is no longer needed. There is only one setting and that's the APR software. You do get the stock file loaded to your ecu at no extra charge of course along with handful of other programs that I will get to here in a minute. So for those taking the cars in to the dealerships or simply want to go back and revisit how the car used to be in stock mode you can in about 20 seconds.
Speed21, your comment about getting APR's story straight. They only have one story and its the same as mine. Every single car APR tunes, they increase the boost. I did mention that on certain cars APR has been known to run less boost than some of their competitors and still achieve similar power numbers. In this case with the 997T, it is unknown if APR's boost pressure of about 18-20 psi (which I will do a video confirmation) is more or less than their competitors. Has anyone done their research on how much PSI other competitors are doing with their listed power numbers? This would be helpful so you can compare how much power APR makes with the boost they are running. I'm axious to see which tuners are running the same boost pressure if not more than APR and are making less power than APR.
This of course is just my personal preference but I prefer a car that makes atleast the same power as everyone else running less boost. The engine is the heart of the 997T and is capable of massive amounts of HP as other competitors are running with larger turbos. So we all know the engine can handle the power so the less stress we can put on the turbos the better because they are responsible for all the heat build up after all. Hence the more power you can make running less boost is always better because it keeps temps down as well and the engine will perform at higher levels for longer. Every gets heat soaked at some point but the object of the game is to delay this from happening for as long as possible.
Would most of you agree?
I can officially confirm that the sport mode button is no longer needed. There is only one setting and that's the APR software. You do get the stock file loaded to your ecu at no extra charge of course along with handful of other programs that I will get to here in a minute. So for those taking the cars in to the dealerships or simply want to go back and revisit how the car used to be in stock mode you can in about 20 seconds.
Speed21, your comment about getting APR's story straight. They only have one story and its the same as mine. Every single car APR tunes, they increase the boost. I did mention that on certain cars APR has been known to run less boost than some of their competitors and still achieve similar power numbers. In this case with the 997T, it is unknown if APR's boost pressure of about 18-20 psi (which I will do a video confirmation) is more or less than their competitors. Has anyone done their research on how much PSI other competitors are doing with their listed power numbers? This would be helpful so you can compare how much power APR makes with the boost they are running. I'm axious to see which tuners are running the same boost pressure if not more than APR and are making less power than APR.
This of course is just my personal preference but I prefer a car that makes atleast the same power as everyone else running less boost. The engine is the heart of the 997T and is capable of massive amounts of HP as other competitors are running with larger turbos. So we all know the engine can handle the power so the less stress we can put on the turbos the better because they are responsible for all the heat build up after all. Hence the more power you can make running less boost is always better because it keeps temps down as well and the engine will perform at higher levels for longer. Every gets heat soaked at some point but the object of the game is to delay this from happening for as long as possible.
Would most of you agree?
#97
06-16-2010, 07:50 AM
Speed21
Sorry of the video was not clear. You only need to clear out the codes when you flash the car. You do NOT need to clear out any codes if you change programs within the ECU. You can change the programs 100 times a day and you will never need to clear out any codes. Only when flash the car. The reason why you need to clear out codes after flashing the car is because APR lets you flash the car through the OBD2 port. APR can flash your ECU outside the car and when you plug it back into the car you will not have to clear out any codes.
If you do receive a CEL at all on your dash while driving normally APR has a program called fault code erase/throttle body alignment. This clears out any CEL light codes and resets your throttle body. Resetting your throttle body is always good to do when your weather or climate changes dramatically. For example here @ GMP we are near down town Charlotte but we can get up into the Ashville areas where the elevation changes dramatically up in the mountains for some spirited driving. So we usually use this option then or before we go to any track
Sorry of the video was not clear. You only need to clear out the codes when you flash the car. You do NOT need to clear out any codes if you change programs within the ECU. You can change the programs 100 times a day and you will never need to clear out any codes. Only when flash the car. The reason why you need to clear out codes after flashing the car is because APR lets you flash the car through the OBD2 port. APR can flash your ECU outside the car and when you plug it back into the car you will not have to clear out any codes.
If you do receive a CEL at all on your dash while driving normally APR has a program called fault code erase/throttle body alignment. This clears out any CEL light codes and resets your throttle body. Resetting your throttle body is always good to do when your weather or climate changes dramatically. For example here @ GMP we are near down town Charlotte but we can get up into the Ashville areas where the elevation changes dramatically up in the mountains for some spirited driving. So we usually use this option then or before we go to any track
#98
06-16-2010, 08:37 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Athens
Age: 47
Posts: 1,671
Rep Power: 133
Guys,you have to understand that I need some relaxing time to enjoy my car... Its not my fault that it reads only 1bar...i am extremely happy with its performance and measured boost just to clarify things here...i really do not know why my car is running only 1bar boost and to be honest i dont really care.If it was running 1,2 it would be the same for me...i just wanted the fastest stock VTG car and thats I ve got...
P.S. My car has sport chrono package,but there is no arrow when pressed...APR Greece stated that overboost function is no longer available...However Vbox did show 0,4difference from 60-130 with sport on and off...my 6,48 sec was achieved with sport on...Perhaps there are different versions of software for Europe...i cant tell...
Its not my fault that it reads only 1bar...i am extremely happy with its performance and measured boost just to clarify things here...i really do not know why my car is running only 1bar boost and to be honest i dont really care.If it was running 1,2 it would be the same for me...i just wanted the fastest stock VTG car and thats I ve got...P.S. My car has sport chrono package,but there is no arrow when pressed...APR Greece stated that overboost function is no longer available...However Vbox did show 0,4difference from 60-130 with sport on and off...my 6,48 sec was achieved with sport on...Perhaps there are different versions of software for Europe...i cant tell...
#99
06-16-2010, 10:07 AM
To everyone concerned,
I can officially confirm that the sport mode button is no longer needed. There is only one setting and that's the APR software. You do get the stock file loaded to your ecu at no extra charge of course along with handful of other programs that I will get to here in a minute. So for those taking the cars in to the dealerships or simply want to go back and revisit how the car used to be in stock mode you can in about 20 seconds.
Speed21, your comment about getting APR's story straight. They only have one story and its the same as mine. Every single car APR tunes, they increase the boost. I did mention that on certain cars APR has been known to run less boost than some of their competitors and still achieve similar power numbers. In this case with the 997T, it is unknown if APR's boost pressure of about 18-20 psi (which I will do a video confirmation) is more or less than their competitors. Has anyone done their research on how much PSI other competitors are doing with their listed power numbers? This would be helpful so you can compare how much power APR makes with the boost they are running. I'm axious to see which tuners are running the same boost pressure if not more than APR and are making less power than APR.
This of course is just my personal preference but I prefer a car that makes atleast the same power as everyone else running less boost. The engine is the heart of the 997T and is capable of massive amounts of HP as other competitors are running with larger turbos. So we all know the engine can handle the power so the less stress we can put on the turbos the better because they are responsible for all the heat build up after all. Hence the more power you can make running less boost is always better because it keeps temps down as well and the engine will perform at higher levels for longer. Every gets heat soaked at some point but the object of the game is to delay this from happening for as long as possible.
Would most of you agree?
I can officially confirm that the sport mode button is no longer needed. There is only one setting and that's the APR software. You do get the stock file loaded to your ecu at no extra charge of course along with handful of other programs that I will get to here in a minute. So for those taking the cars in to the dealerships or simply want to go back and revisit how the car used to be in stock mode you can in about 20 seconds.
Speed21, your comment about getting APR's story straight. They only have one story and its the same as mine. Every single car APR tunes, they increase the boost. I did mention that on certain cars APR has been known to run less boost than some of their competitors and still achieve similar power numbers. In this case with the 997T, it is unknown if APR's boost pressure of about 18-20 psi (which I will do a video confirmation) is more or less than their competitors. Has anyone done their research on how much PSI other competitors are doing with their listed power numbers? This would be helpful so you can compare how much power APR makes with the boost they are running. I'm axious to see which tuners are running the same boost pressure if not more than APR and are making less power than APR.
This of course is just my personal preference but I prefer a car that makes atleast the same power as everyone else running less boost. The engine is the heart of the 997T and is capable of massive amounts of HP as other competitors are running with larger turbos. So we all know the engine can handle the power so the less stress we can put on the turbos the better because they are responsible for all the heat build up after all. Hence the more power you can make running less boost is always better because it keeps temps down as well and the engine will perform at higher levels for longer. Every gets heat soaked at some point but the object of the game is to delay this from happening for as long as possible.
Would most of you agree?
#100
06-16-2010, 10:34 AM
The best
" then based on some performance and dyno data it may very well prove to be a worthy alternative to the best."
So, just who is "the best" you refer to and why? Could you please provide their maps, logs, boost pressures, performance and dyno data.
So, just who is "the best" you refer to and why? Could you please provide their maps, logs, boost pressures, performance and dyno data.
#101
06-16-2010, 01:37 PM
Hey guys, quick question, some had suggested 30mph to 100 mph, i forgot who but this person also suggested to try it in 3rd to avoid any shifting. This might be possible (shifting part) but 30-100 MPH will be extremely slow. I was out driving today in the 997T with Tubi race and 100 fuel, and in 3rd gear at 30mph the rpms were at just under 2000 RPMS. This is not going to work because the car doesn't make any power there.
Let me give you guys a couple things I noticed about where the power comes in on and what MPH and gear and let me know if this works for you.
No matter what gear I'm in the turbos don't kick in till about 3500RPMS. Give or take 100 RPMS. If I leave the car in 3rd gear at 3500 rpms the car is doing about 40-45MPH if I recall correctly. So if I start at 30mph the car would actually be significantly faster if I started in 2nd gear. I can shift through all six gears in the same amount of time the car would take to get from 30mph to 45mph in 3rd grear because its starts at 2000 RPMS.
When I was driving yesterday I'm also certain I can atleast hit 90-95mph in 3rd gear. This information was based on the fact that teh digital read out in the center of the dash was about 10 mph behind at any given time. I should have remembered to look to the left but its so hard to see it through the wheel while holding on to dear life lol but it should be able to reach 100 in 3rd gear. Has anyone else reached 100 in 3rd gear?
Let me give you guys a couple things I noticed about where the power comes in on and what MPH and gear and let me know if this works for you.
No matter what gear I'm in the turbos don't kick in till about 3500RPMS. Give or take 100 RPMS. If I leave the car in 3rd gear at 3500 rpms the car is doing about 40-45MPH if I recall correctly. So if I start at 30mph the car would actually be significantly faster if I started in 2nd gear. I can shift through all six gears in the same amount of time the car would take to get from 30mph to 45mph in 3rd grear because its starts at 2000 RPMS.
When I was driving yesterday I'm also certain I can atleast hit 90-95mph in 3rd gear. This information was based on the fact that teh digital read out in the center of the dash was about 10 mph behind at any given time. I should have remembered to look to the left but its so hard to see it through the wheel while holding on to dear life lol but it should be able to reach 100 in 3rd gear. Has anyone else reached 100 in 3rd gear?
#102
06-16-2010, 01:53 PM
Hey guys, quick question, some had suggested 30mph to 100 mph, i forgot who but this person also suggested to try it in 3rd to avoid any shifting. This might be possible (shifting part) but 30-100 MPH will be extremely slow. I was out driving today in the 997T with Tubi race and 100 fuel, and in 3rd gear at 30mph the rpms were at just under 2000 RPMS. This is not going to work because the car doesn't make any power there.
Let me give you guys a couple things I noticed about where the power comes in on and what MPH and gear and let me know if this works for you.
No matter what gear I'm in the turbos don't kick in till about 3500RPMS. Give or take 100 RPMS. If I leave the car in 3rd gear at 3500 rpms the car is doing about 40-45MPH if I recall correctly. So if I start at 30mph the car would actually be significantly faster if I started in 2nd gear. I can shift through all six gears in the same amount of time the car would take to get from 30mph to 45mph in 3rd grear because its starts at 2000 RPMS.
When I was driving yesterday I'm also certain I can atleast hit 90-95mph in 3rd gear. This information was based on the fact that teh digital read out in the center of the dash was about 10 mph behind at any given time. I should have remembered to look to the left but its so hard to see it through the wheel while holding on to dear life lol but it should be able to reach 100 in 3rd gear. Has anyone else reached 100 in 3rd gear?
Let me give you guys a couple things I noticed about where the power comes in on and what MPH and gear and let me know if this works for you.
No matter what gear I'm in the turbos don't kick in till about 3500RPMS. Give or take 100 RPMS. If I leave the car in 3rd gear at 3500 rpms the car is doing about 40-45MPH if I recall correctly. So if I start at 30mph the car would actually be significantly faster if I started in 2nd gear. I can shift through all six gears in the same amount of time the car would take to get from 30mph to 45mph in 3rd grear because its starts at 2000 RPMS.
When I was driving yesterday I'm also certain I can atleast hit 90-95mph in 3rd gear. This information was based on the fact that teh digital read out in the center of the dash was about 10 mph behind at any given time. I should have remembered to look to the left but its so hard to see it through the wheel while holding on to dear life lol but it should be able to reach 100 in 3rd gear. Has anyone else reached 100 in 3rd gear?
This is the advantage of upgraded vtg's!
They make a big difference over stock.
Last edited by TTdude; 06-16-2010 at 02:04 PM.
#103
06-16-2010, 02:06 PM
TTdude
Thanks for posting the graph, Are you saying that your modified VTG's spool up quicker or late than 3500 RPMS? Im my past experience with turbo charged cars and upgrading the turbos, usually the power comes on a little bit later than the factory ones.
I still dont know where my Vbox is. It was supposed to arrive any day. If I don't get one this week do you mind if I barrow yours. I would gladly pay the shipping of course and return it back to you asap.
Thanks for posting the graph, Are you saying that your modified VTG's spool up quicker or late than 3500 RPMS? Im my past experience with turbo charged cars and upgrading the turbos, usually the power comes on a little bit later than the factory ones.
I still dont know where my Vbox is. It was supposed to arrive any day. If I don't get one this week do you mind if I barrow yours. I would gladly pay the shipping of course and return it back to you asap.
#104
06-16-2010, 05:14 PM
As the saying goes, "sleep on it"
Guys, I have read this whole topic with some interest and as some of you know I am more US proned in terms of tuning than European - I have the full proto kit and am very happy with it here in the UK.
The problem I have is not necessarily with the fact that this tune can produce this 60-130 time. My issue is that 997tt as standard produces great times to 130, but are very slow from 130 to 186. And the reason for that is the temps produced by the VTGs and lack of good cooling. The engine pulls timing under load. In fact, as one quoted on this thread, we run in 3rd gear because 4th produces heatsoak - precisely! Run it in 5th gear and the hp will be a lot less than 3rd gear.
We went to Brunters 2 mile strip in the UK on saturday. We had 12 porsches, 996tt,997tt, GT2s etc with a lot of different tunes. We ran to 186 many times and the Ambient Temp was 17c (67f?).
A 996tt x50 with a mild tune (520hp) ran 23 seconds from 70 to 170. A tuned (tune, exhaust, dv) 997tt (570hp) ran the same time. Difference was down to IAT, both had std intercoolers, but the 997tt was 48c over AT against 38c for the 996tt. Same weight for both car using passengers etc.
The more agressive tunes (tune and exhaust, dv) ran great times (0-100 in 7.5 etc) and good 60-130 times, all on pump 93 US equil gas.
BUT, above 130, those cars sufferred pulled timing with IAT at +40 to 50c over AT. AFRs were adjusted from 12 down to 9s in places on WOT as a result. We even had one car that was pulling timing at just over 90mph because the map was so bad!!!
I understand that people may say why do I need all this other stuff when this tune does this performance, and it would not surprise me that it did, I don't really care and I am not knocking any particular tune, but what I can tell you for sure is that this tune alone is not enough.
You can argue that hey we generally drive to 130max. I make that arguement as well because it is true. A tune like this (that can set this 60-130 time) will be increasing temps so quickly with these VTGs, that you will be heatsoaked, whether you take the car to 180mph, or take it on the track.
Run the car to 186 before and after the software. I bet you would be surprised at the lack of difference between the final times. Run it again straight afterwards and you might be even more surprised.
What I would be concerned about is the tune itself. We have seen on Saturday just how bad some tunes were.
Regarding APR, I have no knowledge other than what has been posted in this thread. But if you want a good comparison, then run the dyno in several gears, and more importantly run durametrics/piwis etc, and log the IATs, 02b1, 02b2 and VTG temps.
I am not advocating only Protomotive here - there are plenty other good US tuners out there and on this board offering complete packages. For those who say why do I need all this other stuff, well you do and after datalog many tunes on Saturday there is no hearsay in that statement. The minimum you absolutely need is good ICs
It seems to me that some has forgotten what a good tuned package is and just look at the headline grabbing 60-130 time, which BTW, was very good time.
The problem I have is not necessarily with the fact that this tune can produce this 60-130 time. My issue is that 997tt as standard produces great times to 130, but are very slow from 130 to 186. And the reason for that is the temps produced by the VTGs and lack of good cooling. The engine pulls timing under load. In fact, as one quoted on this thread, we run in 3rd gear because 4th produces heatsoak - precisely! Run it in 5th gear and the hp will be a lot less than 3rd gear.
We went to Brunters 2 mile strip in the UK on saturday. We had 12 porsches, 996tt,997tt, GT2s etc with a lot of different tunes. We ran to 186 many times and the Ambient Temp was 17c (67f?).
A 996tt x50 with a mild tune (520hp) ran 23 seconds from 70 to 170. A tuned (tune, exhaust, dv) 997tt (570hp) ran the same time. Difference was down to IAT, both had std intercoolers, but the 997tt was 48c over AT against 38c for the 996tt. Same weight for both car using passengers etc.
The more agressive tunes (tune and exhaust, dv) ran great times (0-100 in 7.5 etc) and good 60-130 times, all on pump 93 US equil gas.
BUT, above 130, those cars sufferred pulled timing with IAT at +40 to 50c over AT. AFRs were adjusted from 12 down to 9s in places on WOT as a result. We even had one car that was pulling timing at just over 90mph because the map was so bad!!!
I understand that people may say why do I need all this other stuff when this tune does this performance, and it would not surprise me that it did, I don't really care and I am not knocking any particular tune, but what I can tell you for sure is that this tune alone is not enough.
You can argue that hey we generally drive to 130max. I make that arguement as well because it is true. A tune like this (that can set this 60-130 time) will be increasing temps so quickly with these VTGs, that you will be heatsoaked, whether you take the car to 180mph, or take it on the track.
Run the car to 186 before and after the software. I bet you would be surprised at the lack of difference between the final times. Run it again straight afterwards and you might be even more surprised.
What I would be concerned about is the tune itself. We have seen on Saturday just how bad some tunes were.
Regarding APR, I have no knowledge other than what has been posted in this thread. But if you want a good comparison, then run the dyno in several gears, and more importantly run durametrics/piwis etc, and log the IATs, 02b1, 02b2 and VTG temps.
I am not advocating only Protomotive here - there are plenty other good US tuners out there and on this board offering complete packages. For those who say why do I need all this other stuff, well you do and after datalog many tunes on Saturday there is no hearsay in that statement. The minimum you absolutely need is good ICs
It seems to me that some has forgotten what a good tuned package is and just look at the headline grabbing 60-130 time, which BTW, was very good time.
#105
06-16-2010, 07:50 PM
To everyone concerned,
I can officially confirm that the sport mode button is no longer needed. There is only one setting and that's the APR software. You do get the stock file loaded to your ecu at no extra charge of course along with handful of other programs that I will get to here in a minute. So for those taking the cars in to the dealerships or simply want to go back and revisit how the car used to be in stock mode you can in about 20 seconds.
Speed21, your comment about getting APR's story straight. They only have one story and its the same as mine.
Not correct. Keith (APR) has had two goes at it so far, both times info changed and both times info not correct (bbywu). Matthew you on the other hand have been fairly consistant with the boost with exception to your earlier hiccup where you went along with Skand's claim that APR doesnt need as much boost as other tuners to produce HP.
So, in a nutshell storys have changed and where certain info Keith has provided that has been later shown to be incorrect there has been no subsequent ammendments. Squandered opportunities....
So when i say "when APR gets their story and their facts straight",presently, and evidently, i am qualified to make that point/critisism, and until such point APR has cleared up this error, which incidentally is not a good look as i said previously then their credibility remains questionable. As another member pointed out...if the top brass at APR cant get it right then what hope have they got of getting anything else right. IMHO to make one mistake is bad enough, two is unacceptable. Have you ever heard the saying, "if you cant get it right the first time then you arent likely to get it right the second time", then it isnt likely you are ever going to be able to get it right. Well so far that saying is true..
Every single car APR tunes, they increase the boost.
Hold the phone here. Im assuming you are referring to the Porsche 997tt tune?
I did mention that on certain cars APR has been known to run less boost than some of their competitors and still achieve similar power numbers.
Evidently not the case going by APR's 18 to 20Lbs on 997tt. On other APR vehicle brands....who really cares? We are only talking about the 997tt tune here.
In this case with the 997T, it is unknown if APR's boost pressure of about 18-20 psi (which I will do a video confirmation) is more or less than their competitors. Has anyone done their research on how much PSI other competitors are doing with their listed power numbers?
Yes. I know my Proto tune uses up to 1.1 in normal and 1.3 in SC modes. That is not any more than APR's (possibly a touch less). It doesnt hit 1.0 bar all the time in normal nor does it hit 1.2 all the time in Sports.
However, if i give it wot it will show those readings on the gauge as the revs build in concert with the delivery of the tunes settings and boost delivery. Very smooth....very powerfull.
Also It was actually very refreshing to be able to talk to a tuner who actually knew all the specific details about his own tune with out constant proding and probing as has been the case here with APR. Todd knows exactly what his tune does and is happy to say so with out getting all defensive and tongue tied. He is obviously extremely knowledgeable and comes across as being very confident of his settings. I asked him the numbers he had done and whilst he told me the exact number of tunes he has on file, without being specific by telling his private information i can safely inform you it is well well in excess of 1000, which is a great deal more than what APR would have under their their belt for their current "one size fits all" 997tt tune offering.
Note: I hope you are also taking this in tjclay?
This would be helpful so you can compare how much power APR makes with the boost they are running. I'm axious to see which tuners are running the same boost pressure if not more than APR and are making less power than APR.
See above.
This of course is just my personal preference but I prefer a car that makes atleast the same power as everyone else running less boost. The engine is the heart of the 997T and is capable of massive amounts of HP as other competitors are running with larger turbos. So we all know the engine can handle the power so the less stress we can put on the turbos the better because they are responsible for all the heat build up after all. Hence the more power you can make running less boost is always better because it keeps temps down as well and the engine will perform at higher levels for longer. Every gets heat soaked at some point but the object of the game is to delay this from happening for as long as possible.
I believe that is why there are serious questions being raised over APR's one size fits all tuning methodology Matthew which seemingly does away the need to change turbos and intercoolers. Or so they would have us all believe.
Would most of you agree?
I can officially confirm that the sport mode button is no longer needed. There is only one setting and that's the APR software. You do get the stock file loaded to your ecu at no extra charge of course along with handful of other programs that I will get to here in a minute. So for those taking the cars in to the dealerships or simply want to go back and revisit how the car used to be in stock mode you can in about 20 seconds.
Speed21, your comment about getting APR's story straight. They only have one story and its the same as mine.
Not correct. Keith (APR) has had two goes at it so far, both times info changed and both times info not correct (bbywu). Matthew you on the other hand have been fairly consistant with the boost with exception to your earlier hiccup where you went along with Skand's claim that APR doesnt need as much boost as other tuners to produce HP.
So, in a nutshell storys have changed and where certain info Keith has provided that has been later shown to be incorrect there has been no subsequent ammendments. Squandered opportunities....
So when i say "when APR gets their story and their facts straight",presently, and evidently, i am qualified to make that point/critisism, and until such point APR has cleared up this error, which incidentally is not a good look as i said previously then their credibility remains questionable. As another member pointed out...if the top brass at APR cant get it right then what hope have they got of getting anything else right. IMHO to make one mistake is bad enough, two is unacceptable. Have you ever heard the saying, "if you cant get it right the first time then you arent likely to get it right the second time", then it isnt likely you are ever going to be able to get it right. Well so far that saying is true..
Every single car APR tunes, they increase the boost.
Hold the phone here. Im assuming you are referring to the Porsche 997tt tune?
I did mention that on certain cars APR has been known to run less boost than some of their competitors and still achieve similar power numbers.
Evidently not the case going by APR's 18 to 20Lbs on 997tt. On other APR vehicle brands....who really cares? We are only talking about the 997tt tune here.
In this case with the 997T, it is unknown if APR's boost pressure of about 18-20 psi (which I will do a video confirmation) is more or less than their competitors. Has anyone done their research on how much PSI other competitors are doing with their listed power numbers?
Yes. I know my Proto tune uses up to 1.1 in normal and 1.3 in SC modes. That is not any more than APR's (possibly a touch less). It doesnt hit 1.0 bar all the time in normal nor does it hit 1.2 all the time in Sports.
However, if i give it wot it will show those readings on the gauge as the revs build in concert with the delivery of the tunes settings and boost delivery. Very smooth....very powerfull.
Also It was actually very refreshing to be able to talk to a tuner who actually knew all the specific details about his own tune with out constant proding and probing as has been the case here with APR. Todd knows exactly what his tune does and is happy to say so with out getting all defensive and tongue tied. He is obviously extremely knowledgeable and comes across as being very confident of his settings. I asked him the numbers he had done and whilst he told me the exact number of tunes he has on file, without being specific by telling his private information i can safely inform you it is well well in excess of 1000, which is a great deal more than what APR would have under their their belt for their current "one size fits all" 997tt tune offering.
Note: I hope you are also taking this in tjclay?
This would be helpful so you can compare how much power APR makes with the boost they are running. I'm axious to see which tuners are running the same boost pressure if not more than APR and are making less power than APR.
See above.
This of course is just my personal preference but I prefer a car that makes atleast the same power as everyone else running less boost. The engine is the heart of the 997T and is capable of massive amounts of HP as other competitors are running with larger turbos. So we all know the engine can handle the power so the less stress we can put on the turbos the better because they are responsible for all the heat build up after all. Hence the more power you can make running less boost is always better because it keeps temps down as well and the engine will perform at higher levels for longer. Every gets heat soaked at some point but the object of the game is to delay this from happening for as long as possible.
I believe that is why there are serious questions being raised over APR's one size fits all tuning methodology Matthew which seemingly does away the need to change turbos and intercoolers. Or so they would have us all believe.
Would most of you agree?
Speed21
Sorry of the video was not clear. You only need to clear out the codes when you flash the car. You do NOT need to clear out any codes if you change programs within the ECU. You can change the programs 100 times a day and you will never need to clear out any codes. Only when flash the car. The reason why you need to clear out codes after flashing the car is because APR lets you flash the car through the OBD2 port. APR can flash your ECU outside the car and when you plug it back into the car you will not have to clear out any codes.
If you do receive a CEL at all on your dash while driving normally APR has a program called fault code erase/throttle body alignment. This clears out any CEL light codes and resets your throttle body. Resetting your throttle body is always good to do when your weather or climate changes dramatically. For example here @ GMP we are near down town Charlotte but we can get up into the Ashville areas where the elevation changes dramatically up in the mountains for some spirited driving. So we usually use this option then or before we go to any track
Sorry of the video was not clear. You only need to clear out the codes when you flash the car. You do NOT need to clear out any codes if you change programs within the ECU. You can change the programs 100 times a day and you will never need to clear out any codes. Only when flash the car. The reason why you need to clear out codes after flashing the car is because APR lets you flash the car through the OBD2 port. APR can flash your ECU outside the car and when you plug it back into the car you will not have to clear out any codes.
If you do receive a CEL at all on your dash while driving normally APR has a program called fault code erase/throttle body alignment. This clears out any CEL light codes and resets your throttle body. Resetting your throttle body is always good to do when your weather or climate changes dramatically. For example here @ GMP we are near down town Charlotte but we can get up into the Ashville areas where the elevation changes dramatically up in the mountains for some spirited driving. So we usually use this option then or before we go to any track
And agree this feature is nice and has certain conveniences. However, if the APR tune was more convincing in terms that it has not compromised the longevity of the engine in any way then this feature would ceratainly be of an added benefit. Some times great performance is not the be all end all if there are compromises to the engine.
And also acknowledge it would be nice if other tuners had such a feature as an add on. But i guess looking at the bigger tuning picture you cant have your cake and eat it too by looks of things (so far).
Guys,you have to understand that I need some relaxing time to enjoy my car... Its not my fault that it reads only 1bar...i am extremely happy with its performance and measured boost just to clarify things here...i really do not know why my car is running only 1bar boost and to be honest i dont really care.If it was running 1,2 it would be the same for me...i just wanted the fastest stock VTG car and thats I ve got...
P.S. My car has sport chrono package,but there is no arrow when pressed...APR Greece stated that overboost function is no longer available...However Vbox did show 0,4difference from 60-130 with sport on and off...my 6,48 sec was achieved with sport on...Perhaps there are different versions of software for Europe...i cant tell...
Its not my fault that it reads only 1bar...i am extremely happy with its performance and measured boost just to clarify things here...i really do not know why my car is running only 1bar boost and to be honest i dont really care.If it was running 1,2 it would be the same for me...i just wanted the fastest stock VTG car and thats I ve got...P.S. My car has sport chrono package,but there is no arrow when pressed...APR Greece stated that overboost function is no longer available...However Vbox did show 0,4difference from 60-130 with sport on and off...my 6,48 sec was achieved with sport on...Perhaps there are different versions of software for Europe...i cant tell...
APR clearly states they have only the one 997tt tune globally for all markets and, its one that generates up to 18/20lbs boost and, has only the one mode.
Perhaps you should take your car into APR's offices in Greece for a re write.
I think it is all what you want in your tune. Do you want massive torque early on with less area under the curve or less torque early with greater top end HP. Most tuners will tell you that the factory vtg's come in very early, so much that it has no top end because the turbine is too restrictive. This is why Skands result is so interesting especially with the boost levels he is claiming. If you want awesome top end, you will have to upgrade your turbos to something like GT30s. The bigger turbos will afford a much broader torque band with a larger area under the curve. The bottom line is that if you want to run higher HP at lower boost, you need to switch turbos to something like GT3071/6. The stock vtg's just won't cut it. You can't defy the laws of physics.
Now some may like that call that a good tune (in fact the best in the business) and bragg about how much better it is but sometimes being the most powerfull tune is not the "be all end all". The best tune is the better sorted tune.....and suited to the remaining car.
A Pcar is often quoted as being a complete sum of its parts. So, by adding something new into the mix it needs to work in synergy without burning everything else out along the way.
Im sure you are smart enough to figure out who i am refering to.
No offense but perhaps you have become blindsided by the power factor of your APR tune?