The much maligned 2010/11 tt
#16
09-01-2010, 02:19 PM
There is no "might" about it, for example (from engine builder.com):
The use of a wet or dry sump oiling system is often determined by the level of competition and the racer’s budget. A wet sump system is based on the original equipment oiling system (for pretty much all cars except the Mezger based Porsche's), and can be enhanced with certain components to improve oil control and increase power. A dry sump system is designed for the top levels of racing where maximum power and oil control are absolutely essential.
Oil Pan Capacities
Capacities listed for Wet Sump Oil Pans include the capacity of the pan only, measured at or below the normal fill mark on a stock dipstick. Additional oil must be added to compensate for filters, coolers, tanks, etc.
Unlike a wet sump system where oil is stored in the pan, a Dry Sump Oiling system stores oil in a separate tank -- leaving the pan essentially "dry." An externally-mounted pump, generally with three or four stages, is used to "scavenge" or remove oil from the pan, deliver it to the storage tank, and send it back through the engine. In a typical setup, all but one of the stages is used to scavenge oil from the pan. A single pressure stage is normally used to return oil from the tank to the engine.
The primary advantage of a dry sump system is its ability to make more power. With very little oil in the pan, the rotating assembly is not burdened with the weight of excess oil (a phenomenon commonly referred to as "windage"). And because there is no internal pump, the windage tray or screen which serves to isolate sump oil from the rotating assembly, is allowed to run the full length of the pan. Keeping the rotating assembly free of windage allows it to spin freely and make more power. In addition, the extra crankcase vacuum created by the dry sump pump helps to improve ring seal for additional power gain.
Other advantages of a dry sump system include increased oil capacity, more consistent oil pressure, the ability to easily add remote coolers, and adjustable oil pressure. And because the pan doesn’t store oil, it can be relatively shallow in depth to allow lower engine placement for improved weight distribution and handling.
Dry Sump Oiling Systems allows the engine builder to select the best combination of equipment.
How do you consider such widely accepted empirical evidense "useless"?
Look, I have nothing against the .2, I would love to have one and the PDK is superb (w/ in it power limitations).
You are just not going to see 700 plus rwhp examples (like my car and many more w/ Mezger engines).
Powell is running 864 rwhp, the Sledgehammer 915, my car will be making over 800 soon. The new stock block is not built for those power levels.
But again, it is a phenomenal car that off the showroom floor will walk 99% of the cars out there.
The use of a wet or dry sump oiling system is often determined by the level of competition and the racer’s budget. A wet sump system is based on the original equipment oiling system (for pretty much all cars except the Mezger based Porsche's), and can be enhanced with certain components to improve oil control and increase power. A dry sump system is designed for the top levels of racing where maximum power and oil control are absolutely essential.
Oil Pan Capacities
Capacities listed for Wet Sump Oil Pans include the capacity of the pan only, measured at or below the normal fill mark on a stock dipstick. Additional oil must be added to compensate for filters, coolers, tanks, etc.
Unlike a wet sump system where oil is stored in the pan, a Dry Sump Oiling system stores oil in a separate tank -- leaving the pan essentially "dry." An externally-mounted pump, generally with three or four stages, is used to "scavenge" or remove oil from the pan, deliver it to the storage tank, and send it back through the engine. In a typical setup, all but one of the stages is used to scavenge oil from the pan. A single pressure stage is normally used to return oil from the tank to the engine.
The primary advantage of a dry sump system is its ability to make more power. With very little oil in the pan, the rotating assembly is not burdened with the weight of excess oil (a phenomenon commonly referred to as "windage"). And because there is no internal pump, the windage tray or screen which serves to isolate sump oil from the rotating assembly, is allowed to run the full length of the pan. Keeping the rotating assembly free of windage allows it to spin freely and make more power. In addition, the extra crankcase vacuum created by the dry sump pump helps to improve ring seal for additional power gain.
Other advantages of a dry sump system include increased oil capacity, more consistent oil pressure, the ability to easily add remote coolers, and adjustable oil pressure. And because the pan doesn’t store oil, it can be relatively shallow in depth to allow lower engine placement for improved weight distribution and handling.
Dry Sump Oiling Systems allows the engine builder to select the best combination of equipment.
How do you consider such widely accepted empirical evidense "useless"?
Look, I have nothing against the .2, I would love to have one and the PDK is superb (w/ in it power limitations).
You are just not going to see 700 plus rwhp examples (like my car and many more w/ Mezger engines).
Powell is running 864 rwhp, the Sledgehammer 915, my car will be making over 800 soon. The new stock block is not built for those power levels.
But again, it is a phenomenal car that off the showroom floor will walk 99% of the cars out there.
Last edited by Dr_jitsu; 09-01-2010 at 02:28 PM.
#17
09-01-2010, 02:33 PM
well
I'm pretty sure porsche doesn't use Moroso's wet sump or dry sump. There are many technical tricks that i'm sure porsche leveraged to make the wet sump better than previous versions. I distinctly remember someone posting about it. Of course this is just one aspect of the car and while it ultimately might not be better I'm sure other parts can offset some of the loss.
As to the limits of the new motor ... I'm pretty sure we don't know yet. We do know the limits of the PDK tranny though. I have yet to see a tuner blow up the new motor and I'm sure they will learn plenty of new ways to tweek it in the coming years.
Regardless I bow down to the huge hp being made on the mezger motors. Until someone does it on a 997.2 turbo motor they will be the big dogs on the block.
As to the limits of the new motor ... I'm pretty sure we don't know yet. We do know the limits of the PDK tranny though. I have yet to see a tuner blow up the new motor and I'm sure they will learn plenty of new ways to tweek it in the coming years.
Regardless I bow down to the huge hp being made on the mezger motors. Until someone does it on a 997.2 turbo motor they will be the big dogs on the block.
#18
09-01-2010, 02:44 PM
The BMW 335i has a Twin Turbo DI engine known as a N54. The N54 has been around since late 2006, and while you can get a bit over 400whp just from tuning and bolt-on's, there is NO tuner to date that has been able to figure out how to upgrade the direct injection fuel system. There have been several attempts, but so far everyone has given up. AMS of Chicago (very reputable tuner) went as far as selling their 335 after giving up on upgrading the fuel system and ultimately a turbo kit.
The entire system in a DI engine is MUCH more complicated than EFI (to upgrade/tune).
The entire system in a DI engine is MUCH more complicated than EFI (to upgrade/tune).
Last edited by bullmrkt; 09-01-2010 at 02:46 PM.
#19
09-01-2010, 04:59 PM
Please take time and read what others have to say before mocking them.
Dear Dr J. Mezger or whatever,
I’m sure that you have a perfectly adequate car but the discussion here is not to compare a .2 to a .1 but whether to mod or not mod a .2.
So if you can contribute that that discussion fine otherwise bug off.
I’m sure that you have a perfectly adequate car but the discussion here is not to compare a .2 to a .1 but whether to mod or not mod a .2.
So if you can contribute that that discussion fine otherwise bug off.
Last edited by bbywu; 09-01-2010 at 05:01 PM.
#20
09-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Remember when the water cooled motor came out? OMG it's the end of the 911 as we know it!
Now a new motor comes out and OMG it's the end of the modified 911 as we know it! Even though it is larger displacement, higher compression, more powerful, more fuel efficient and less complicated.
It's totally assumed that it can't be modified to 800HP without one shred of data that says it can't. However plenty of data exists to show that it can already be modified to achieve stellar results with just a tune!
Take for example this car... It dynos way less than the car it's chasing however it somehow seems to hang with it. Shouldn't the 800+ HP car be smoking the 997.2?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWItpi5neuM
Most tuners have performance improvement packages that put a PDK car into the 10's with just software! Can a mezger motor car pull 10's with just a tune?
Is the Mezger a better motor to modify? It should be at this stage considering the amount of time the car has been available. But the new car with the PDK is such an improved package that your really don't need to go to the extreme level you do with the 997.1 to get the same results. It's just a way better car.
Every major tuner is all over modifying the 997.2. If there is a weak spot it will be found and corrected.
Now a new motor comes out and OMG it's the end of the modified 911 as we know it! Even though it is larger displacement, higher compression, more powerful, more fuel efficient and less complicated.
It's totally assumed that it can't be modified to 800HP without one shred of data that says it can't. However plenty of data exists to show that it can already be modified to achieve stellar results with just a tune!
Take for example this car... It dynos way less than the car it's chasing however it somehow seems to hang with it. Shouldn't the 800+ HP car be smoking the 997.2?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWItpi5neuM
Most tuners have performance improvement packages that put a PDK car into the 10's with just software! Can a mezger motor car pull 10's with just a tune?
Is the Mezger a better motor to modify? It should be at this stage considering the amount of time the car has been available. But the new car with the PDK is such an improved package that your really don't need to go to the extreme level you do with the 997.1 to get the same results. It's just a way better car.
Every major tuner is all over modifying the 997.2. If there is a weak spot it will be found and corrected.
#22
09-01-2010, 06:44 PM
You also claim "If there is a weak spot it will be found and corrected."
It is the core materials (just look at what Bob had to say about Nikasil vs Lokasil) that are the weak points.
It is the core materials (just look at what Bob had to say about Nikasil vs Lokasil) that are the weak points.
#23
09-01-2010, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by TxTurbo
Most tuners have performance improvement packages that put a PDK car into the 10's with just software! Can a mezger motor car pull 10's with just a tune?
Originally Posted by TxTurbo
Shouldn't the 800+ HP car be smoking the 997.2?
Last edited by bbywu; 09-01-2010 at 07:00 PM.
#24
09-01-2010, 06:52 PM
Jeez.. That seems fair.. Your highly modified car against a stock one... I see that you clearly picked a sweet spot for speed too.. Afraid of running a wet sump from a dig?
#29
09-01-2010, 07:09 PM
VTG turbos versus GTXXs on the track. Nice comparison. Want to see a Miata with 1/5th the HP of your 997.2TT smoke you at BlackHawk? Come take a ride with my driving instructor.
Last edited by bbywu; 09-01-2010 at 07:18 PM. Reason: edited in error