Modded VTGs - What Is Upgraded and What Parts are Best
#1
10-19-2010, 03:49 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 288
Rep Power: 30 
Modded VTGs - What Parts are Modified & What Are the Ideal Modification Specs
Almost every tuner out there is now selling modded VTGs, but what are the differences between them?
For someone who knows a little, but not much about modded VTGs, I thought it would be useful to have people chime in a give some insite on the following:
What parts are modified on VTGs:
1- bigger billet compressor wheel
2- clip turbine
3- extrude housing
4- Anything Else?
We have all been reading about the new 68mm Billets by Champion, but what are the pros and cons of a 63mm vs 65mm vs a 68mm?
How much of a difference does modifying the extrude housing make?
How do top of the Line Modded VTGs compare to the likes of the Alpha 30s or the Garret 3071s (spooling, quarter mile times, high speeds....)?
For someone who knows a little, but not much about modded VTGs, I thought it would be useful to have people chime in a give some insite on the following:
What parts are modified on VTGs:
1- bigger billet compressor wheel
2- clip turbine
3- extrude housing
4- Anything Else?
We have all been reading about the new 68mm Billets by Champion, but what are the pros and cons of a 63mm vs 65mm vs a 68mm?
How much of a difference does modifying the extrude housing make?
How do top of the Line Modded VTGs compare to the likes of the Alpha 30s or the Garret 3071s (spooling, quarter mile times, high speeds....)?
Last edited by farris; 10-19-2010 at 03:55 PM.
#4
10-19-2010, 04:31 PM
Almost every tuner out there is now selling modded VTGs, but what are the differences between them?
For someone who knows a little, but not much about modded VTGs, I thought it would be useful to have people chime in a give some insite on the following:
What parts are modified on VTGs:
1- bigger billet compressor wheel
2- clip turbine
3- extrude housing
4- Anything Else?
We have all been reading about the new 68mm Billets by Champion, but what are the pros and cons of a 63mm vs 65mm vs a 68mm?
How much of a difference does modifying the extrude housing make?
How do top of the Line Modded VTGs compare to the likes of the Alpha 30s or the Garret 3071s (spooling, quarter mile times, high speeds....)?
For someone who knows a little, but not much about modded VTGs, I thought it would be useful to have people chime in a give some insite on the following:
What parts are modified on VTGs:
1- bigger billet compressor wheel
2- clip turbine
3- extrude housing
4- Anything Else?
We have all been reading about the new 68mm Billets by Champion, but what are the pros and cons of a 63mm vs 65mm vs a 68mm?
How much of a difference does modifying the extrude housing make?
How do top of the Line Modded VTGs compare to the likes of the Alpha 30s or the Garret 3071s (spooling, quarter mile times, high speeds....)?
This is ur 3rd thread for u regarding modded vtg's
Why u dont wait for champions until they release the dyno results for the 68mm billet vtg's??
Alpha turbo is bolt on kit on stock headers directly
GT3071 need custom headers
What is ur riding style???
#5
10-19-2010, 05:47 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 288
Rep Power: 30 I am also trying to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the larger 68mm billets compared to the smaller 65 or 63s
I was also wanting to understand which turbos spooled the fastest and gave the best results up to about 140mph.
I am not sure what you mean by driving style but I use the car as a daily driver and do give it a nice thrashing on the freeway quite often, but very rarely take the car over 140mph. My main points of interest are as follows:
- great off the line
- 1/4 mile is really important as I would like to drag it
- performs well on 93 Octane as that is what I will have regularly available
- works well with the stock headers and stock tiptronic tranny
#6
10-19-2010, 09:39 PM
If you haven't already done so, I would recommend talking someone like Todd K. at Protomotive since he sells and tunes all these kits. He would be able to provide you with informed answers.
#7
10-19-2010, 11:56 PM
Almost every tuner out there is now selling modded VTGs, but what are the differences between them?
For someone who knows a little, but not much about modded VTGs, I thought it would be useful to have people chime in a give some insite on the following:
What parts are modified on VTGs:
1- bigger billet compressor wheel
2- clip turbine
3- extrude housing
4- Anything Else?
We have all been reading about the new 68mm Billets by Champion, but what are the pros and cons of a 63mm vs 65mm vs a 68mm?
How much of a difference does modifying the extrude housing make?
How do top of the Line Modded VTGs compare to the likes of the Alpha 30s or the Garret 3071s (spooling, quarter mile times, high speeds....)?
For someone who knows a little, but not much about modded VTGs, I thought it would be useful to have people chime in a give some insite on the following:
What parts are modified on VTGs:
1- bigger billet compressor wheel
2- clip turbine
3- extrude housing
4- Anything Else?
We have all been reading about the new 68mm Billets by Champion, but what are the pros and cons of a 63mm vs 65mm vs a 68mm?
How much of a difference does modifying the extrude housing make?
How do top of the Line Modded VTGs compare to the likes of the Alpha 30s or the Garret 3071s (spooling, quarter mile times, high speeds....)?
Trending Topics
#8
10-20-2010, 02:42 AM
Farris, the rule is that the smaller the turbos the quicker they response. So far this rule has been broken with tpc's/protomotive moded vtgs .. If ur not looking for 1 mile plus runs.. I highly recommend the 65's IMO other wise $$ is always the case .. If that is not a concern. Definately go with the 68's.
I have made a few threads about Modded VTGs but none of them answered the questions I am trying to address. I am trying to understand the main differences between different tuners Modded VTGs.
I am also trying to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the larger 68mm billets compared to the smaller 65 or 63s
I was also wanting to understand which turbos spooled the fastest and gave the best results up to about 140mph.
I am not sure what you mean by driving style but I use the car as a daily driver and do give it a nice thrashing on the freeway quite often, but very rarely take the car over 140mph. My main points of interest are as follows:
- great off the line
- 1/4 mile is really important as I would like to drag it
- performs well on 93 Octane as that is what I will have regularly available
- works well with the stock headers and stock tiptronic tranny
I am also trying to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the larger 68mm billets compared to the smaller 65 or 63s
I was also wanting to understand which turbos spooled the fastest and gave the best results up to about 140mph.
I am not sure what you mean by driving style but I use the car as a daily driver and do give it a nice thrashing on the freeway quite often, but very rarely take the car over 140mph. My main points of interest are as follows:
- great off the line
- 1/4 mile is really important as I would like to drag it
- performs well on 93 Octane as that is what I will have regularly available
- works well with the stock headers and stock tiptronic tranny
#9
10-20-2010, 02:56 AM
SpunkyQ8,
champions stated that their 68mm VTGs are spooling as fast or faster than usual modded VTGs.
I was wondering what would happen if extructed hot sideds were used on the 68MM VTGs
champions stated that their 68mm VTGs are spooling as fast or faster than usual modded VTGs.
I was wondering what would happen if extructed hot sideds were used on the 68MM VTGs
#10
10-20-2010, 03:33 AM
I demand more info. On their 68's as well.. I heard they were so good that their competitors swear by their 68's !!
#11
10-20-2010, 10:27 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 288
Rep Power: 30 I wonder how much difference in price there would be between 65s and 68s.
We need AroneTT To chime in and VCR his 2 cents :-)
#12
10-20-2010, 10:35 AM
Former Vendor
http://www.championmotorsport.com/Se...ts.asp?Cat=198
If there's another specific question you have, feel free to ask here or PM and I'll do my best to answer.
#13
10-20-2010, 11:38 AM
I hope this helps you guys make an educated decision.
There have been a lot of comments on the 68mm exducer sized compressors that we offer. First I would like to say that CMS has actually said very little about these units as of yet. In the last post that we discussed them in, we mentioned that we achieved 680whp with our 65mm compressors, and we felt that much over that would exceed the mechanical limits of the standard engine, and we actually called out to the community asking if anyone wanted to do a full mechanical build out and see what the 68’s could do, as of that time, we had yet to install or test them on a 997.1. We had however built several sets of 68mm exducer compressors on the 997.2 cars. The 997.2 receives a different treatment to the turbine, and you also remember the 997.2 is a 3.8 liter. The results on the 997.2 were very promising right up to 590 whp where the clutches at that time were slipping uncontrollably. The data we collected made us aware that we had LOTS of margin left in the turbocharger, as the boost and the VTG vane positions were still very low at this level. Detuned a bit this is the package that we set some very impressive 0-60 times, as well as standing ¼ mile. The response was astounding, and the car was plain and simply quick..
Back to the 997.1 68mm conversion… we had offered these units to the community to someone who was interested in testing them as our research shows that they should do quite nice if properly tuned and matched with proper components. Well to date there are 2 sets of them fitted to cars. One is a board member here, and the other is a customer car at our workshop. Our customer car is near completion, and should be fitted to the dyno within the next week or so, and as always results and photos will be posted. The other car, I cannot speak of, as I lack the information. We just need some patience from the community with this upgrade. CMS is not always the first to the party, but when we arrive it is worth it..
A brief description of our turbochargers. Both our CMS 65’s and 68’s are built based on our 3 piece billet CNC machined compressor housings. Depending on which sized wheel is installed the CNC profile is cut into the internal air passage as well as the volute of the compressor housing to properly match the flow of the wheel to the housing. This is the #1 difference separating our compressor from any compressor based on a stock cast housing, and it pays off in both air flow potential, and compressor outlet temperatures. In essence we can change the A/R of the compressor by machining. Please don’t ask specifically what the A/R is as we never put a physical number to it, the sizing internally was based off of the computer modeling we did when designing the housing. Now the Turbine is another story. We are fortunate that with the VTG turbochargers you have a fair sized turbine to start with. When we built the first set of 65’s for our test car we started with unmodified turbines, and the boost was difficult to control, and the VTG vanes went quickly out of range when pushed hard as the calculated shaft speeds were just too high. We then brought in several small steps of modifications to the turbine to balance this, and our 65mm units are for our purposes fully developed. The 68’s on the other hand have not yet been tested in all extremes. The turbine has received the next logical progression of modifications based on the CMS 65mm 997.1 and the limited amount of information we could pull from the 997.2 CMS projects. We do expect the boost response to be delayed as compared to the 63.5 and 65mm conversions, but this is to be expected whenever turbine flow is increased, as it is the price that must be paid in order to efficiently drive this large compressor. In all cases it should always beat a non VTG based conversion in response.
There have been a lot of comments on the 68mm exducer sized compressors that we offer. First I would like to say that CMS has actually said very little about these units as of yet. In the last post that we discussed them in, we mentioned that we achieved 680whp with our 65mm compressors, and we felt that much over that would exceed the mechanical limits of the standard engine, and we actually called out to the community asking if anyone wanted to do a full mechanical build out and see what the 68’s could do, as of that time, we had yet to install or test them on a 997.1. We had however built several sets of 68mm exducer compressors on the 997.2 cars. The 997.2 receives a different treatment to the turbine, and you also remember the 997.2 is a 3.8 liter. The results on the 997.2 were very promising right up to 590 whp where the clutches at that time were slipping uncontrollably. The data we collected made us aware that we had LOTS of margin left in the turbocharger, as the boost and the VTG vane positions were still very low at this level. Detuned a bit this is the package that we set some very impressive 0-60 times, as well as standing ¼ mile. The response was astounding, and the car was plain and simply quick..
Back to the 997.1 68mm conversion… we had offered these units to the community to someone who was interested in testing them as our research shows that they should do quite nice if properly tuned and matched with proper components. Well to date there are 2 sets of them fitted to cars. One is a board member here, and the other is a customer car at our workshop. Our customer car is near completion, and should be fitted to the dyno within the next week or so, and as always results and photos will be posted. The other car, I cannot speak of, as I lack the information. We just need some patience from the community with this upgrade. CMS is not always the first to the party, but when we arrive it is worth it..
A brief description of our turbochargers. Both our CMS 65’s and 68’s are built based on our 3 piece billet CNC machined compressor housings. Depending on which sized wheel is installed the CNC profile is cut into the internal air passage as well as the volute of the compressor housing to properly match the flow of the wheel to the housing. This is the #1 difference separating our compressor from any compressor based on a stock cast housing, and it pays off in both air flow potential, and compressor outlet temperatures. In essence we can change the A/R of the compressor by machining. Please don’t ask specifically what the A/R is as we never put a physical number to it, the sizing internally was based off of the computer modeling we did when designing the housing. Now the Turbine is another story. We are fortunate that with the VTG turbochargers you have a fair sized turbine to start with. When we built the first set of 65’s for our test car we started with unmodified turbines, and the boost was difficult to control, and the VTG vanes went quickly out of range when pushed hard as the calculated shaft speeds were just too high. We then brought in several small steps of modifications to the turbine to balance this, and our 65mm units are for our purposes fully developed. The 68’s on the other hand have not yet been tested in all extremes. The turbine has received the next logical progression of modifications based on the CMS 65mm 997.1 and the limited amount of information we could pull from the 997.2 CMS projects. We do expect the boost response to be delayed as compared to the 63.5 and 65mm conversions, but this is to be expected whenever turbine flow is increased, as it is the price that must be paid in order to efficiently drive this large compressor. In all cases it should always beat a non VTG based conversion in response.
#14
10-20-2010, 12:07 PM
Just keep to everyone informed..we are still in the tuning process. It is important to remember that no one has tuned these yet so there is no baseline to start from..I've been working with Todd K. and the guys from EPL (which I must say are GREAT!!!) and Justin from CMS (which can't say enough abount, thanks) on this..When we are done we will have results.
#15
10-21-2010, 10:29 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 288
Rep Power: 30 I hope this helps you guys make an educated decision.
There have been a lot of comments on the 68mm exducer sized compressors that we offer. First I would like to say that CMS has actually said very little about these units as of yet. In the last post that we discussed them in, we mentioned that we achieved 680whp with our 65mm compressors, and we felt that much over that would exceed the mechanical limits of the standard engine, and we actually called out to the community asking if anyone wanted to do a full mechanical build out and see what the 68’s could do, as of that time, we had yet to install or test them on a 997.1. We had however built several sets of 68mm exducer compressors on the 997.2 cars. The 997.2 receives a different treatment to the turbine, and you also remember the 997.2 is a 3.8 liter. The results on the 997.2 were very promising right up to 590 whp where the clutches at that time were slipping uncontrollably. The data we collected made us aware that we had LOTS of margin left in the turbocharger, as the boost and the VTG vane positions were still very low at this level. Detuned a bit this is the package that we set some very impressive 0-60 times, as well as standing ¼ mile. The response was astounding, and the car was plain and simply quick..
Back to the 997.1 68mm conversion… we had offered these units to the community to someone who was interested in testing them as our research shows that they should do quite nice if properly tuned and matched with proper components. Well to date there are 2 sets of them fitted to cars. One is a board member here, and the other is a customer car at our workshop. Our customer car is near completion, and should be fitted to the dyno within the next week or so, and as always results and photos will be posted. The other car, I cannot speak of, as I lack the information. We just need some patience from the community with this upgrade. CMS is not always the first to the party, but when we arrive it is worth it..
A brief description of our turbochargers. Both our CMS 65’s and 68’s are built based on our 3 piece billet CNC machined compressor housings. Depending on which sized wheel is installed the CNC profile is cut into the internal air passage as well as the volute of the compressor housing to properly match the flow of the wheel to the housing. This is the #1 difference separating our compressor from any compressor based on a stock cast housing, and it pays off in both air flow potential, and compressor outlet temperatures. In essence we can change the A/R of the compressor by machining. Please don’t ask specifically what the A/R is as we never put a physical number to it, the sizing internally was based off of the computer modeling we did when designing the housing. Now the Turbine is another story. We are fortunate that with the VTG turbochargers you have a fair sized turbine to start with. When we built the first set of 65’s for our test car we started with unmodified turbines, and the boost was difficult to control, and the VTG vanes went quickly out of range when pushed hard as the calculated shaft speeds were just too high. We then brought in several small steps of modifications to the turbine to balance this, and our 65mm units are for our purposes fully developed. The 68’s on the other hand have not yet been tested in all extremes. The turbine has received the next logical progression of modifications based on the CMS 65mm 997.1 and the limited amount of information we could pull from the 997.2 CMS projects. We do expect the boost response to be delayed as compared to the 63.5 and 65mm conversions, but this is to be expected whenever turbine flow is increased, as it is the price that must be paid in order to efficiently drive this large compressor. In all cases it should always beat a non VTG based conversion in response.
There have been a lot of comments on the 68mm exducer sized compressors that we offer. First I would like to say that CMS has actually said very little about these units as of yet. In the last post that we discussed them in, we mentioned that we achieved 680whp with our 65mm compressors, and we felt that much over that would exceed the mechanical limits of the standard engine, and we actually called out to the community asking if anyone wanted to do a full mechanical build out and see what the 68’s could do, as of that time, we had yet to install or test them on a 997.1. We had however built several sets of 68mm exducer compressors on the 997.2 cars. The 997.2 receives a different treatment to the turbine, and you also remember the 997.2 is a 3.8 liter. The results on the 997.2 were very promising right up to 590 whp where the clutches at that time were slipping uncontrollably. The data we collected made us aware that we had LOTS of margin left in the turbocharger, as the boost and the VTG vane positions were still very low at this level. Detuned a bit this is the package that we set some very impressive 0-60 times, as well as standing ¼ mile. The response was astounding, and the car was plain and simply quick..
Back to the 997.1 68mm conversion… we had offered these units to the community to someone who was interested in testing them as our research shows that they should do quite nice if properly tuned and matched with proper components. Well to date there are 2 sets of them fitted to cars. One is a board member here, and the other is a customer car at our workshop. Our customer car is near completion, and should be fitted to the dyno within the next week or so, and as always results and photos will be posted. The other car, I cannot speak of, as I lack the information. We just need some patience from the community with this upgrade. CMS is not always the first to the party, but when we arrive it is worth it..
A brief description of our turbochargers. Both our CMS 65’s and 68’s are built based on our 3 piece billet CNC machined compressor housings. Depending on which sized wheel is installed the CNC profile is cut into the internal air passage as well as the volute of the compressor housing to properly match the flow of the wheel to the housing. This is the #1 difference separating our compressor from any compressor based on a stock cast housing, and it pays off in both air flow potential, and compressor outlet temperatures. In essence we can change the A/R of the compressor by machining. Please don’t ask specifically what the A/R is as we never put a physical number to it, the sizing internally was based off of the computer modeling we did when designing the housing. Now the Turbine is another story. We are fortunate that with the VTG turbochargers you have a fair sized turbine to start with. When we built the first set of 65’s for our test car we started with unmodified turbines, and the boost was difficult to control, and the VTG vanes went quickly out of range when pushed hard as the calculated shaft speeds were just too high. We then brought in several small steps of modifications to the turbine to balance this, and our 65mm units are for our purposes fully developed. The 68’s on the other hand have not yet been tested in all extremes. The turbine has received the next logical progression of modifications based on the CMS 65mm 997.1 and the limited amount of information we could pull from the 997.2 CMS projects. We do expect the boost response to be delayed as compared to the 63.5 and 65mm conversions, but this is to be expected whenever turbine flow is increased, as it is the price that must be paid in order to efficiently drive this large compressor. In all cases it should always beat a non VTG based conversion in response.
Thanks