K24F,
did your datalog show that timing was being pulled in 3-4-5 with the stock i/cs?

My i/cs are being sent out via UPS - I'll try a few datalogs with the stock i/cs before changing to the new ones if I can. I look forward to your results.

 

Have the Evoms coolers been flow tested against what you had? To say something actually flows better there has to be a test done (as what Champion Motor Sports provided) to prove it. Whilst flow must be adequate to offset the obstruction of the intercooler turbulators cooling is key to having an intercooler there to begin with otherwise You may as well just do away with the intercoolers and just put in a straight blank pipe.

What you say that the GT2 intake manifold cools air is something im not familiar with but it doesn't sound logical to me.. Its the intercoolers that cool the air and the manifold/intake plenum that directs and controls the air in a "special" way to provide its own charging effect into the cylinders.

Desirably an AM intercooler would satisfy the flow requirements for the engine and cool better than the oem unit. That way the cooler air can actually be used to make more power by way of further revising the ecu tune settings and higher turbocharger boost.


[quote=emmo.84;3116007]mmhhhhhh..... this thing of flow is something I had not considered...(1) they told me that the 2009 GT2 ICs are the same of the 997.1 TT, so at what seems from the threads, the GT2RS ICs would be a big step forward...
I was only worried about fitting them to the car because I was afraid I had to buy also all the plastics and air duct frames...

2) But now you are all writing that it is possible to do all the work and end up with a slower or "sluggish" car because of the airflow problems....

The only thing I can think of is that the OLD GT2 had a turbo pressure of 1.4 that any tuner would transform in 1.6 (3) while the new RS has a turbo pressure of 1.6 as standard.

(4) So it looks like the only issue between the 997.1 ICs and the new 997.2 ICs would be the better cooling efficiency due to a better core quality, as illustrated in EARL's post. (fin quality, number, finish, etc).

5) I am sure 997.2 ICs won't give the car a big horsepower advantage.

quote]

As per the points in your post emmo, which i have bolded and numbered (sorry...i hope you dont mind):-

1) What "they" (who ever "they" are) say and actually know appear to be two different things as the .1 and .2 two coolers have been flow tested by Champion and that test clearly shows the difference in flow between the two.

2) Not everyone is writing that. That has been stated by one member here i believe and appears to be a generalized assumption which has been somehow arrived at without providing any substantive facts to support. In fact flow may not be your problem at all.....unless the AM cooler you are using is tested and proven to be flowing less than the .1tt or .2tt coolers.

3) Correct and Porsche evidently does not see the lesser flow from this new series .2tt cooler as having any negative issues that would rob the engine of boost or power at the 1.6 boost level either. This situation serves as a key point where higher flowing coolers are concerned (until proven otherwise). So unless an AM cooler can actually cool the same or better than the .2tt coolers then additional flow characteristics may possibly be superfluous for this 3.8 engine.

4) Correct, and again it has not been proven by anyone at this stage that the .2tt coolers have any flow issues in the new 997ttrs application even though Champion motor sports testing has now shown the .2tt IC's actually flow less than the .1tt's coolers. So, logically PAG established the flow of the cooler was more than sufficient for the turbos to deliver 1.6 bar of boost to the engine. Otherwise why would P use a lesser flowing IC than .1tt?? And, PAG saw a reduction in IAT's as a key ingredient required to run this level of boost reliably whilst the flow of the cooler "not an issue".

5) Yes, id say you are right... however, if the ECU tune is re-set to advantage the lower temps additional power could be seen. An intercooler can not make power just on its own....it is a means to make more power and to create a better environment for the engine under turbo boost.

So, as Skand says, it may well be that its "Game Over"!... as well as "Games up" for a number of AM coolers. His test has really forced the issue for AM cooler guys to put up the facts that support their assurances that their coolers are better than these new .2tt coolers .

 

The IAT goes from 30°C to >70°C when pulling a 100-300,
reaching 70°C in 5th (starting in 3rd).
Time pulling starts around 50/55°C IAT...

Same car, road, rear wing, wind (no wind), tires, etc... I Vboxed 100-300
in 30/31' by 20/24°C AT and 24.9' by 4°C AT.

 

Hi speed 21, thanks for the precise and detailed answer!

 

No worries emmo. Im as interested as anyone here to find out whether additional flow is of any real value other than perhaps just a good marketing spiel. Obviously the cooler the IAT's the denser the charge but exactly where additional flow comes into play i don't know....but i would like to see some facts to show how. Hopefully someone is able to prove that more flow above the stock coolers does something of value.

 

Yes.... you're right!
New turbos in warranty substitution have just arrived at my Porsche Center, so in a few days I'll go there and compare Earl pictures of the .2 997 ICs to the ones that are on my car. After that I'll confim or not the 997.2 ICs order.
Power in my car is OK with just remap and 100 cell cats, but for summer races I'd like to keep the power a little bit longer, and I'll be happy with that.
To me the only valuable test will be the lap times on the various circuits and the way the car behaves under heavy racing.
But to do that I'll have to mount the 997.2 on the car and test them.
So hoping it won't be too much of a fuss with plastics and tubes I'll do it and let you know my impressions.
Though until april it might be hard to see any difference due to the cold weather.

 

Yes this is how the GT2 expansion manifold works. Its the opposite of the standard turbo resonance intake that accelerates the air but also increases iat, the gt2 intake is smaller and effectively decelerates the air flow and reduces intake temperature at high rpm. As a result you need to compensate by increasing boost. The lower intake temps means that you car run much higher ignition timing on high rpm- mine reach around 26 degrees.. The giveaway is that this intake creates a hole in the midrange and also it can't handle high hp applications..
Gt2, gt2rs and 997.2tt have this intake, there is a tech explanation on various sites including the P website.
The problem I have is that with my target power of 720-740Hp with big vtgs and rods cams etc I am forced to run very high boost and hence temperatures rise more than this intake's intended benefit. So I think a new test is about to be performed in a few days where I am going to put those rs coolers to the test on a back to back comparison in my car and log everything.
With my higher boost from these big vtgs (49.8 compressor) that should be another interesting data point..

 

OK GT TT, I have the hard covered book in front of me for 997.2tt and sure enough what you say about the manifold is fully explained in detail (full page 38). Very interesting.....and they elaborate on the efficiency of the new intercoolers as well as the higher boost and the rationale behind the concept. Its quite obvious by the detail they have done extensive R and D to arrive at this combination so to discount these new coolers as having insufficient flow would be somewhat foolish i would suspect.
And they conclude the page by saying "As we said, sometimes you just have to question established ideas".

Is yours the previous 997GT2.1? If so it would have a different set up? So with your car to benefit from further boost you will definately need cooler coolers for sure.....not necessarily higher flowing than .2tt coolers though if P have done their homework correctly.....which one would think they would have.

 

mine is a 997.1tt so it had the turbo intake to begin with. I took that the 650hp and then with the addition of that gt2 intake top power went to 670+. However as i was trying to get to higher hp/boost levels (with all necessary hardware) then it became evident that the compromise between boost/temps was no longer beneficial as the turbos were spooling too much and also the flow restriction in the midrange could not be overcome. So now i may yry to check those GT2RS inercoolers to see if they can support 1.55bar boost and 700+ hp in terms of cooling but also flow.
As i posted before my previous experiment with other AM ICs showed that those older EVOMs i have flow very well but dont necessarily cool sufficiently for my application.

 

My IC's arrived yesterday!! They look super good, I cannot wait to put them on!!

I have decided, for "R&D" purposes to pass on the meth injection for now, I will do it in a second time. So I will be able to do datalogs and see the IAT behaviour.






BTW, these coolers are made by JDEUS (DENSO) (www.jdeus.com) for Porsche. I bought the IC's from them and not from Porsche directly. This way I have been able to pay a little over 900€ for both.


If someone is interested in knowing the correspondent part numbers I will ask the shop that sourced them for me. Just let me know.



BTW2, these DON'T look cheap at all....we can argue about the plastic tanks, but you can really see high quality in them...

 

Part numbers would be great! Let us know thanks .

 

I've installed these intercoolers recently on my 997 Gt2..

im pretty pleased with there results vs price than other AM coolers..

The car feels that it has more power and holds more specially after 4krpm on the track and road..

The Iats cool down pretty fast once they get up and the cores dont tend to heat soak or fall down like the 997.1 coolers..

My car is running 1.6 bar and has 600hp and we all know the high iats the GT2's produce even in stock trim.

The iats with the 997.2 cores on a 22 degree day are the same as the 997.1 on a 14 degree day!!!

We are also running 97 octane and the fuel quality is not that clean..

For sure there are better and more expensive AM coolers but i am pleased with my set.

 

A friend of mine with a 997,2 just passed me a set of OEM GT2RS for sale...He replaced them with bar and plate ICs...These are in like new condition and we wants 600E +shipping for both...I will place it in parts for sale...Anyone interested pm me...

 

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!If I knew I wouldn't have bought mine!!

Guys from Europe, jump on these, you won't find a better price, guaranteed!



PS: I will investigate on the Denso Part numbers and will report as soon as I have them!!

 

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