Flowing is one thing, but easy to obtain (an empty box would flow), cooling is the First quality needed when a Pcar owner changes his Ics because stocks are firstly heat soaking, not underflowing.
Like says Earls it is a fine balance of the both, that I would be astonished Weissach ingeneers ignore...
But (and it is NOT an "anti Champion" message at all) while the CFM rate sent by BBWYU shows the bad flowing of stock parts, particulars like Earl and Skand are able to produce datas showing the REAL efficiency (or not...) of Ic's (the Cooling), I'm ok the 997.2's are perhap's not the solution if my need is 850hp, but NONE actually has proven his solution is better.
The door is open...

PS: Skand' will send us his new times 100-200 etc..., if better so no flowing issue?

 

One last note is that the run posted above for the 997,2ICs was the forth in a row...no heat soak at all...while the run of the 997,1ICs was the first I did that day...
Speed 21,when I pay almost $4000 for a set of ICs and they have 8 to 12 degC HIGHER than OEM ICs,i simply return them back...and ask for refund...

 

Mou fainetai oti prepei na erthw na sas gnwrisw. Prospathisa na to kanonisw me ton Kosta ena vrathy alla den vgike. Anyway, we will soon...
Good work guys!

 

I would say the stock 997.1 IC is pretty damn good, and the 997.2 is detuned to cap HP.

 

Wow, intriguing and impressive data. Thanks for taking the time to explore, test, and post -- this forum never ceases to amaze me. That said, and with questions of thermal versus pressure efficiency brought into play, am I missing something or this thread begs for a test that answers the question: All these numbers are nice and good, but is the car faster, the engine more "powerful"?

In other words (please correct me if I have misunderstood something), to declare "game over" means you need to prove that the mod leads to great numbers (which you've done, lower IAT's), AND those great numbers lead to a relevant result, such as the engine being more powerful/efficient. The proof then would be, for example. a 60-130 run, or 0-300, or whatever, before and after the intercooler change, in the same car, no? Has this test been posted somewhere and I just haven't seen it?

Otherwise I would have the same type of question as BBYWU's, what if these lower IAT's come at some expense, and overall the engine may not have been better? Thanks again for the very interesting thread; I don't mean to be critical at all, just want to join in the discussion.

 

EARL the man who started this educating thread with data,SKAND for showing that interesting data and BBYWU for your participation.

I want to thank you all three for giving us that much info and reallity comparo.
EARL special thanks to you for being the pioner of this thread.I am impressed by all of you guys.

 

Tomorrow i will install new tires,and so will be able to run the car at higher speeds...if feels faster,especialy at high speeds...By observing OEM ICs logs at speeds over 220-230 and up to 270km,i saw that the car was running very rich there...which is a sign of a)less dense air or b)DME adds fuel to prevent detonation from high IAT...
In order to have identical 60-130 run as my 6,48 i need to have the same ambient temp...i hope for the weather to cool down...

 

The real gain is when the ECU was time pulling and does not still, so at long pulls and high speed.
Between 230 and 270 if IAT was very hot (70°C), the ECU might not only add fuel to prevent knocking and low EGT, but reduce boost too.
Do you observe it on logs?
I think the 100-200 and 60-130 times will not change a lot, only become more consistent, but 100-300 might...
My lonely doubt is about the heat evolution at very high speeds, 5th and 6th are "long loading" (nearly 10' each), will the IAT stay under 50°C or will ICs finally heat soak just later than OEM?...

 

I respect your respect for these companies, but this says a ton about these tuners: 1) they don't test (other than on a 4 second dyno pull which means nothing) 2) they're creeping into false advertisement IMO -"sure we'll sell you these things and claim better thermal performance but if you're crafty enough to actually test them and they're worse than stock, we'll refund your money...as long a you don't tell anyone of course. Got a lot of folks to swindle and that would be bad for business, you see."

...due diligence folks

Anyways, yeah -more data Skand!

 

great point K24, there have been instances of flashed cars that picked up 60-70hp gradually becoming slower than their stock counterparts on a road course because of the timing pull from excessive charge temps -the gain from a good cooler may be as little as 10-15hp, or it may be 5x that depending on the condition/duration. Toby's (and others) extensive datalogging has shown this.

 

Point of information/clarification (and please correct me if I'm wrong): NO IC, not Porsche, not Secan, not NOBODY "makes" or "gains" power. What a good IC DOES do is PREVENT THE LOSS OF POWER BY COOLING THE CHARGE AIR. Yes? No?

Fascinating and informative thread. Earl, thank you for your hard work and ingenuity.

 

If the IC has the same (or better) cooling capacity and at the same time it is better flowing, then yes it'll give some additional power.

It should be cool to know how cooling capacity and pressure drop, in respect of each other, actually influence the engine output (and their reletioship in the IC design). I'm not into it enough to fully analyze....

 

Guys,on page 1 where my logs are attached,we ca view that as speed rises,boost gets higher with .2 instead of .1 coolers...(the correct term is coolers and not intercoolers,as intercooler means a cooling device between turbocharging stages...We have one stage charging so they should be called coolers...but whatever...)

 

One way of doing this is to measure the volumetric efficiency of the engine with different ICs (or with any engine related mod for that matter). This will take into consideration IATs and pressure drop since those parameters will affect VE. For instance here's a plot of VE with my current set-up.

 

But... what if you do 5 consecutive 60-130 runs and look at the results of the later runs?

The car with the better intercooler will show its superiority in the latter runs, no?