I did make the point in this very thread that Nitrogen molecules are slightly larger than oxygen molecules and therefore will leak down more slowly. HOWEVER, this advantage is minuscule (air is already 78% nitrogen). It has been quantified by many to be about 2.5 psi less leakdown per YEAR. This is well documented in previous threads about Nitrogen so I won't go there again.

As to the teams, I already know why they use it. I've made that point. It is a combination of the anti-corrosion benefit, the elimination of the tiny variable from the partial pressure of water vapor, and simple convenience. Nitrogen is cheap (it's 78% of every breath you take), widely available, and 100% fire suppressing. It's a fine gas. By all means use it.

My concern in doing these posts is to inform the members that nitrogen does NOT do many of the things that the marketers claim. These include enhanced temperature stability, better ride comfort, better tire wear, and all that jazz.
It simply doesn't happen because ALL gasses perform in the same way when heated or cooled. Period.

 

3 pages debating the benefits of nitrogen

 

Mike thanks for your post honest ,simple and to the point.

 

I found the attachment on the internet.

I really don't think anyone will be "dragging" a tank of N2 around. It would be on wheels just like a mobile compressor. Beyond that, you wouldn't even need to power it on.
Pretty ridiculous, I know.
But hey, if folks feel they they benefit from N2 fills even if it's just psycological then that's good for the mental state plus it helps the economy.

 

Ok wise guys take a look at this

http://www.toyo.com.au/tech_info11.htm

.

As i said earlier..there is theory and practice...and sometimes there are different outcomes.

Btw (E55, Slawek, TT,) have any of you ever used nitrogen in your tires or even done a track day for that matter? Or are you guys armchair throttle jockeys reserving your driving for street only?

Tech 1 Mike ought to know better given his (alleged) close association to F1 racing teams as a wheel supplier. And expressing a pet peeve whilst in the process seeking to ridicule the suggestions of others, without providing any reference material from the users of nitrogen in motor racing or tire manufacturers is basically asking us to take his word for it. I call that shooting from the hip.....shot foot syndrome. Mike you say you are a wheel supplier but lets face it....you're not on the F1 team, so there are things that you don't know yet could easily find out if you had any real strength in the associations there. Statements like "Caveat Exemptor" and, i don't have the time anymore is a bit like saying oops "exit stage left". I hope the same attitude doesn't apply to customer issues. Anyway.....

Racing teams dont use nitrogen because of convenience nor because its cheap. Mind you air is cheaper again.. Unless there were distinct performance benefits it simply wouldn't be used....end of story!!

And 3 pages about nothing? Well, to the critics, i've read far more than 3 pages about less than nothing on other threads, so whats your toss? The point here is if you are going to say anything be prepared to back it with reference material relevant to the application.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question594.htm Here's another from the reams available.

I also note the wikipedia notes on nitrogen used in motor racing state the corrosion factor is actually within the tires.....not the alloy wheels as Mike says.......so more faulty information again it would seem.

I came into this as a novice, knowing the best part of nothing on nitrogen, but maintained an open mind to education on the subject. I admit I have done a number of track days with the stuff, and without it, and i definately felt a difference. Now maybe some guys that track there cars may not be able to feel any difference.....but thats not my problem. Maybe they should stop using it then.....afterall why waste money no matter how little it may be. I also experienced benefits with it on road use as well although very tiny but i am intuitive enough to know there was something different.

So to the OP. Give it a go and report your findings from first hand experience.....again it doesn't cost that much.

 

Hey, take it easy, I was just busting chops. My point was not that the discussion was silly just points to how serious and to what level we are into our cars.

And yes, i've tracked before not just an armchair racer.

 

No worries Chris. I do have a tendency to go in boots and all when getting to the bottom of things. And if you think i'm bad here you should work with me.. My guys all know don't ever bring anything but all the facts to the table. I think it comes from a lifetime passion in CSInvestigation of engine and component failures. Ive learned there are answers for everything and we go to all lengths necessary until we find the cause/reason. Having a passion for cars can make the condition worse.

 

As I said before, the maximum possible variable in an average sized tire is .4 psi. It is due to the partial pressure of water vapor, should some be present. (This is now a highly unlikely occurrence.) That seems consistent with your "empirical" source from the Discovery Channel or whatever.
I have only posted now three times that race teams work hard to eliminate any variable, including this one.

I stand by my post for the umpteenth time. Nitrogen behaves no differently than any other gas in your tires. It doesn't expand more consistently or differently, it isn't more stable at high temperatures, and it has no effect on tire performance or wear.

Its a scientific fact. And that's it.

As for corrosion of high strength alloys, I am reasonably well informed. Corrosion is highly variable based upon the alloy used. 6061 aluminum, common in wheel manufacturing, is highly corrosion resistant. There are other 6000 and 7000 series alloys that, while MUCH stronger, suffer from serious corrosion problems. Magnesium, with a molecular weight two-thirds that of aluminum, is extremely sensitive to exposure to water and/or oxygen. Titanium, with a molecular weight 55% that of steel, is almost totally resistant to corrosion formation.
Aerospace vehicles, especially commercial and military aircraft, consume huge amounts of their maintenance budgets fighting corrosion. This is why they use Nitrogen in their tires. It is a combination of using very high strength alloys that are vulnerable to aluminum oxide formation in areas that are exposed to moisture and oxygen.

This is my final post on this subject.....for now.

 

Don't believe everything you read. Some of the stuff in that article is completely false, like how water molecules get more "excited" when heated. What the heck does that supposed to mean? Without getting too technical the heat capacity of H2O vapor is about twice that of N2.


No one said "about nothing". I believe it was about "nitrogen". You have a tendency to misquote then go on the attack. Just an fyi, please don't take it personally.

I'm not too sure about the open mindedness. Something tells me otherwise. I believe you truly feel a difference with N2 which is fine but do you have data to support the difference you feel. You're always pushing to see hard data, so where's yours?

 

So, should i take that as exit stage right?

 

I am content to let the readers of these pages make judgement based upon the facts presented.

I have nothing to gain personally or professionally with these posts. I seek only to inform so that readers can make informed decisions.
I have offered my concerns, supported with what I believe to be empirical evidence backed by science.

You have every right to suggest otherwise.

But your veiled suggestion that I am somehow running from your "evidence" is manipulative and disingenuous. Like others, I have serious concerns about the sources and content of your "evidence". I just think any further discussion with you on this topic would serve no purpose.

 

[quote=Tech1_Mike;3124733]As am i Mike....as am I.

Nor have I and my intentions are same.

Thats fine. As i also have concerns over the science in a practical sense regarding the use of this gas in tires in a high performance environment.
Seems odd that you are such a closed book on the subject given the proximity of your product with the racing fratenity and tire manufacturers.
It appears you are more interested in being "right" rather than resolve the truth of the matter. Mike i'm mhappy to be wrong. I wont get any pleasure out of seeing you suffer any humiliation. But we all have to be prepared for it at one point. No one can expect to right all the time.

Im not suggesting anything as such more so drawing attention to the obvious facts with regard to tire performance and nitrogen use in a racing or high performance vehicle environment. You surely cant suggest that a Globally recognised tire manufacturer would go out on a limb telling untruths by fabricating falsities on a technical bulletin, posting it up on the web. These guys arent selling nitrogen Mike. They manufacture bloody tires mate. Offering anyone who is interested the heads up from their simulated testing in various conditions is a service. You are basically suggesting that the science is all that matters and to hell with what happens when the gas is used in a wheel tire automotive environment. Thats just being plain ignorant for the sake of it.



So you can dish it out but you cant take it? Hmmm OK.

It appears to me that you being found wrong is getting the better of you Mike. I only wish i am found wrong and then you can beat me over the head with a stick. And i dont mind the odd slice of humble pie either. Just ask my old mate ruf. I will have it with Chardonnay too if you like.

quote]

Your call Mike. Your call. Just dont be to hard on yourself.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IU1bzZheWk

 

. I like it. A great circuit breaker indeed.

 

Ok Dave. Your turn. Sorry ive had some distractions or i would have answered you earlier. OK. I'll answer you in sequence to you paragraphs as 1,2 and 3.

Wow. Firstly i must say ive obviously stoked a few boilers here. Anyway...to answer:

1) Theory and practical TT. Theory and Practical.....and then there's application and environment. But if you and Tech 1 Mike are hell bent on welding yourselves to the deck of the titanic by believing everyone (race teams, tire manufacturers etc etc) are all out there imagining these benefits and, ill informing the public in some bid to sell a tankerload of nitrogen instead of tires thens thats fine man. Truly...its cool.

Hey TT you never answered my question whether your car has ever found its way onto a race track yet. If it hasnt then no biggy, but as nitrogen is so cheap anyway why dont you get a fill yourself? See if you can notice any difference at all. I can tell you though on the track with a set of R tires it certainly makes a noticeable difference. And i'm not referring to the anti corrosive benefits either.

2) Whats going on here Dave? By not using the exact word "nitrogen"? Surely you can understand the context in which i used the term "about nothing"? I think you are splitting hairs with that one Dave. Just MO. And sorry if i offended .

3) And your concern over my open mindedness? I thought we knew each other well enough at this stage but obviously i was mistaken. Oh well. And to say something tells you otherwise? C'mon man be specific.....i can take it....you should know that by now. And yes i believe there is something to be felt there particularly during hard driving but no worries if you fill and dont. And to the hard data that i so crave and insist upon. Well in this case my hard data is accessable by most folk so nothing to hide there and nothing special or exclusive in this instance. Anyway its not as if i made it up.....cobbled together some speil for the sake of hoodwinking Tech 1 Mike. But look if you think the tire manufacturers have made up nonsense then you should take that matter up with them. Im sure they will be glad to oblige. I have absolutely no problem or reservations understanding how these guys operate as i know how large manufacturers work in so far as product testing under simulated conditions using all sorts of variables. It's all part of the R and D process. I've been through enough OEM R and D rooms and have dealt with so many of their technical people over the years in the course of my proffession to know how things work there. But again if you guys want to feel its all marketing and or made up BS then that totally fine by me. I'm sure the racing teams and other track guys that swear by the stuff wont be bothered either.

Anyway no hard feelings this end. And as i've said i'm honestly glad to be found wrong. I love to learn about new stuff. Plus if im wrong at least it will relieve all that pressure from Mikes shoulders.