MODDED TT vs Ninja 636
#16
02-19-2011, 05:47 PM
Since I said it, I will answer...
Tips are great from a dig. Unless a 6sp driver is an expert, he will not probably catch the tip car before a quarter mile or so (given two evenly powered cars)
Tips are notably weaker than 6sp in roll races given the increased weight, lower gear ratios, and increased drivetrain losses of tips. It takes quite abit more power to make a tip car competitive in the 60-130 zone that roll ons occur in. On the 60-130 list look how few tips there are below 6s compaired to 6sps. Look at the fastest cars. They are all 6sp. The fastest tips are about 3/4 second slower than the fastest 6sp. If you take the argument beyond 130 mph the 6sp dominate even more. The other problem with tips in high hp application is slippage and outright failure above 550-600whp. It you go above that zone the tip has to be rebuilt to hold the power.
As far as VTGs, you are simply limited on the max power these turbos can produce even with larger wheels. If you want to go beyond a certain level (I am not sure of exact number but guess most would be under about 650 whp) you have to go to an aftermarket turbo like a GT3076 or a least a hybrid porsche turbo K24 like a 24/20g.
The race with the 600 Ninja was very close. The car could not pull appreciably on the bike until higher speeds were reached in third gear. 600 bikes are not all that fast in roll races. I suspect the outcome would have been less favorable if the opponent had been on a liter bike...
Tips are great from a dig. Unless a 6sp driver is an expert, he will not probably catch the tip car before a quarter mile or so (given two evenly powered cars)
Tips are notably weaker than 6sp in roll races given the increased weight, lower gear ratios, and increased drivetrain losses of tips. It takes quite abit more power to make a tip car competitive in the 60-130 zone that roll ons occur in. On the 60-130 list look how few tips there are below 6s compaired to 6sps. Look at the fastest cars. They are all 6sp. The fastest tips are about 3/4 second slower than the fastest 6sp. If you take the argument beyond 130 mph the 6sp dominate even more. The other problem with tips in high hp application is slippage and outright failure above 550-600whp. It you go above that zone the tip has to be rebuilt to hold the power.
As far as VTGs, you are simply limited on the max power these turbos can produce even with larger wheels. If you want to go beyond a certain level (I am not sure of exact number but guess most would be under about 650 whp) you have to go to an aftermarket turbo like a GT3076 or a least a hybrid porsche turbo K24 like a 24/20g.
The race with the 600 Ninja was very close. The car could not pull appreciably on the bike until higher speeds were reached in third gear. 600 bikes are not all that fast in roll races. I suspect the outcome would have been less favorable if the opponent had been on a liter bike...
#17
02-19-2011, 06:06 PM
I highly doubt that a 6SP will be faster than a TIP hp vs hp. I will accept the power limit issue with the TIP's but if a 650HP TIP vs a 650HP 6SP got at it, I would not put my money on the 6SP anyways you look at it. The TIP will always keep the boost while the 6 will drop it a little enough to be left behind.
From a roll, HP to HP and weight being equal, a 6 speed will beat a TIP every time. This isn't just my opinion, this is based on a significant amount of verified data in the 6 speed 1/4 mile and 60-130 list. 6 speed cars trap higher and run quicker 60-130s than similarly powered TIPs, due to the reasons I stated above.
Bottom line is this: TIPs are great from a dig, but at speed and from a roll, a 6 speed with the same power, same weight and a proper driver will be faster each and every time.
Of course the best of both worlds are Dual-Clutch trannies (Porsche PDK, BMW DCT, GT-R, Ferrari 458, Mercedes SLS, Lancer EVO X, McLaren MP4-12C, etc..), but that's another topic.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 02-19-2011 at 06:17 PM.
#20
02-20-2011, 08:57 AM
Scott, i'm not sure if there are any tiptronics with same or equal modds to the fastest 6speeds on the forum.
How do you explain the fact that the 3 best VTG 60-130 times here on the forum are tiptronics? Also 1/4 mile and 1 mile runs
#21
02-20-2011, 09:20 AM
Most of the fast guys do not want to run VTGs, so really, the 'VTG' stat doesn't mean anything. There is a group of overseas guys here who are sticking to a specific setup on their cars; TIPs built by a forum member, with VTG turbos...and yes, their cars are certainly quick and seem t be a great setup all-around. But that doesn't change the fact that TIPs have more parasitic drag than 6speeds.
I just remembered that you own a TIP as well, which explains why you are even debating this. Regardless, here are the lists. 6 speeds dominate throughout:
60-130:
4.25 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD / (6 speed)
4.25 - art4iza / RWD / ( 6 speed)
4.43 - edelectra / 997TT AWD / (6 speed)
4.54 - Keithta / 997TT AWD / ( 6 speed)
4.62 - Markski / RWD / (6 speed)
4.67 - Divexxtreme / RWD 996TT (6 speed)
4.81 - Joetwint / RWD / (6 speed)
4.85 - topgun / AWD / (6 speed)
4.89 - Powell / AWD / 1-shift (6 speed)
4.95 - Divexxtreme / GT2 / (6 speed)
4.97 - Besiktas / 997TT AWD (TIP...finally!)
What extra modifications do dk996TT and Edelectras 997TTs have that Besikitas car does not? They are all bolt-on cars, all with essentially the same turbos making around 1000 HP at the flywheel...but look at how much faster the 6 speed cars are.
1/4 mile trap speeds. Bahrain 996TT monster TIP is the only one the top 15:
11.00 @ 151.4 - S-351
09.67 @ 149.8 – EVOMS / RWD
10.30 @ 149.3 - Powell / RWD
09.90 @ 149.1 - EVOMS / 997TT AWD
09.90 @ 148.6 - Bahrain 996TT / 997TT AWD TIP
10.83 @ 148.0 - Divexxtreme / RWD
10.58 @ 146.6 - Chris Green / RWD
09.79 @ 146.4 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD
09.91 @ 145.6 - Markski / RWD
10.91 @ 144.0 - Art4iza / RWD
10.82 @ 143.1 - AtomicZ / GT2
10.98 @ 141.5 - evoviiiyou / 997TT AWD
10.72 @ 141.4 - Divexxtreme / GT2
10.50 @ 140.6 - Joetwint / AWD
11.15 @ 139.5 - KeithTA / 997TT AWD
10.43 @ 139.1 - Palette / RWD
Standing Mile. No TIPs over 200 mph. One TIP on the list, period?
236.6 - Eddie Bello / 964C2TT
231.4 - joetwint / 996TT
224.8 - EVOMS / 997TT
221.2 - art4iza / 996TT
218.6 - topgun / 996TT
215.6 - KPG / 996TT
206.3 - VividRacing / 997TT
206.2 - AtomicZ / GT2
200.9 - bmoores / 996TT
199.7 - MBailey / 996TT
197.3 - AMS / 996TT
197.1 - vividracingTX / 996TT
195.4 - vividracing / 997TT
195.0 - ttboost / 996TT
193.7 - Tito / '88 Carrera Turbo
191.6 - AMS / 996TT (K16's)
190.7 - woodtster / 996TT
185.8 - Eclou / 997TT
183.3 - EVOMS / 997.2 TT (with tune)
Here are some more Standing Mile times from forum member's other cars. The only TIP on the list is the slowest car of them all:
247.7 - Anthracite / Supra
246.2 - Boost Logic / 1,300+ rwhp Supra
232.? - UGR / Gallardo
226.2 - jbsteven / 994 rwhp SC&TT Ford GT
222.3 - AMS / EVO
210.0 - Shotgun Willie / TT Viper
204.6 - LMBZ06 / Z06
203.5 - Boost Logic / GT-R
190.5 - AtomicZ / 580+ rwhp N/A C6 Z06
186.1 - PencilGeek / E92 M3 6-MT, RD Sport RS-46 "Stroker" motor and ESS Tuning S/C
185.3 - Hennessyperformance / 650 rwhp Cadillac CTS-V
181.7 - houstonT / 560 whp GTR
180.7 - Dad's C63 / modified C63
Can TIPs be very fast? Absolutely. Especially from a dig.
But if you want a car that dominates from a roll or top-end (60-130, Standing Mile, 0-300 kph), a 6 speed or dual-clutch car will always be faster than a TIP with the same HP at the flywheel.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 02-20-2011 at 09:47 AM.
#22
02-20-2011, 09:52 AM
[quote=Divexxtreme;3128813]Simple. The guys running the fastest cars are running different turbos than VTGs.
I just remembered that you own a TIP as well, which explains why you are even debating this. Regardless, here are the lists. 6 speeds dominate throughout:
This is all i can say about this comment
60-130:
4.25 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD / (6 speed)
4.97 - Besiktas / 997TT AWD (TIP...finally!)
WOW HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!
Man i have nothing to proof here, i just ask a question because what you say does not make a lot of sense. 600WHP TIP is faster on the 1/4mile and 60-130 but above that power level 6speeds are faster
Anyway if you are not willing to discuss something just don't reply, i would prefer that.
The question was simple and was refering to VTG based cars
I just remembered that you own a TIP as well, which explains why you are even debating this. Regardless, here are the lists. 6 speeds dominate throughout:
This is all i can say about this comment
60-130:
4.25 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD / (6 speed)
4.97 - Besiktas / 997TT AWD (TIP...finally!)
WOW HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!
Man i have nothing to proof here, i just ask a question because what you say does not make a lot of sense. 600WHP TIP is faster on the 1/4mile and 60-130 but above that power level 6speeds are faster
Anyway if you are not willing to discuss something just don't reply, i would prefer that.
The question was simple and was refering to VTG based cars
#23
02-20-2011, 10:22 AM
Man i have nothing to proof here, i just ask a question because what you say does not make a lot of sense. 600WHP TIP is faster on the 1/4mile and 60-130 but above that power level 6speeds are faster
When two cars are making the same power at the ENGINE, and one has a TIPtronic tranny and the other has a manual or dual-clutch, the TIP car will LOSE more power to the drive wheels than the manual or dual-clutch cars will.
If a TIP car (regardless of the type of turbos it has...since VTG or non-VTG has absolutely nothing to do with it) runs a faster trap speed or 60-130 time than a 6 speed car, it is because the TIP car is making more power at the ENGINE, which is compensating for the power lost via the parasitic TIPtronic transmission. So at that point, things are NOT equal. You are comparing a much more powerful TIP car (at the ENGINE) to a less powerful 6 speed car (at the ENGINE).
Now, if you took that ENGINE from the TIP car and put it in the 6 speed car, the 6 speed car would be faster...since the ENGINE is more powerful and has less of its power lost through the transmission. Understand?
So, using your example, where you say that "600whp" TIP cars are faster than "600whp" 6 speed cars (I'm actually not sure what you're talking about, but I'll go with it in order to explain my point)...the only way that would happen is if the TIP car makes significantly more power at the ENGINE, compensating for the extra drivetrain loss from the TIP transmission (i.e., 22.5% loss vs 17.5% loss). So basically, you'd be comparing a 775 BHP TIP car against a 725 BHP 6 speed car. Not apples to oranges.
Anyway if you are not willing to discuss something just don't reply, i would prefer that.
#24
02-20-2011, 10:33 AM
Thank you for your time Scott, i fully understand what you're saying, and i knew the tecnical part from before.
So the answer is that Skandalis/Madsex and me do more power to the wheels than other VTG based cars. Especially me where my car is a convertible.
I read somewere that most dragsters use a 3 gear auto transmitions.
Again i have nothing to prove, i wouldn't get a convertible if i wanted the fastest tt. But i have one of the fastest convertibles
thank you for your time
So the answer is that Skandalis/Madsex and me do more power to the wheels than other VTG based cars. Especially me where my car is a convertible.
I read somewere that most dragsters use a 3 gear auto transmitions.
Again i have nothing to prove, i wouldn't get a convertible if i wanted the fastest tt. But i have one of the fastest convertibles
thank you for your time
#25
02-20-2011, 10:49 AM
Top Fuel dragsters don't use transmissions. They have a five-disc clutch set-up that slips just enough to keep the tires from breaking traction. It’s controlled by centrifugal levers (adjustable by adding or removing weights) and air pressure that's regulated by mechanical timers. Adjustment is applied in 12 stages over the run, utilizing data from previous passes. Every part is replaced after each run. Friction elements are resurfaced to within .001-in. flatness for each race.
Not only that, but they make 7000 BHP, so they'll be fast regardless of what method they use to put their power to the ground.
Not only that, but they make 7000 BHP, so they'll be fast regardless of what method they use to put their power to the ground.
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