Tire choices on 2007 turbo
#16
08-12-2011, 11:56 AM
I see both sides of arguments - no LOL's here; each of us is entitled to do what we are comfortable with. I just want to point out that the N standard is not as strict as Porsche might have you believed. For example, when the Turbo was designed, say it was used with N1 front, N1 rear. Later on N2 replaces N1, and no one knows how significant the change from one N to another is, but everyone switches to N2. In other words, N2 becomes the defacto standard, even though the car was designed with N1, N1.
We had a discussion about this in the past and I am too lazy to do a search now, but in that case, it was the tires for the GT2.
Second, those of us who have used R compound tires. The Turbo's are not even designed for those tires. So do we stick with N tires there? Just playing devil's advocate here. The change from street to R compound overwhelms that of one N to another, no? So why is that ok and not the N change?
Third, I used to think highly of N tires (I paid extra for my Corsa N), then I realize, at least for those of us who have modified our suspension, the car is no longer the same
. The suspension mods we do, whether lowering springs, KW, or Bilstein, have totally changed the car and so much more significant than N1 vs. N2.
Lastly, in some aspects (not weight) the PSS *is* a superior tire with less compression in the shoulder in corners, better tread wear, etc.. It is proven to be faster in a race track (2 seconds in 1.6 mile course, don't know the car) and very likely will become the only tire available for Porsche in the future. This major change alone should make you question: If the tire changes so much, does the N really matter?
FWIW, I am local to one of the biggest Porsche tire dealers in the USA (Wheel Enhancement), and their recommendation is Super Pilot over Pilot. My humble opinion for OP:
Street tires: Michelin Pilot Super Sport
R compound: Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa, non N, or Toyo Roxes 888 (non N and used by a major tuner TPC).
We had a discussion about this in the past and I am too lazy to do a search now, but in that case, it was the tires for the GT2.
Second, those of us who have used R compound tires. The Turbo's are not even designed for those tires. So do we stick with N tires there? Just playing devil's advocate here. The change from street to R compound overwhelms that of one N to another, no? So why is that ok and not the N change?
Third, I used to think highly of N tires (I paid extra for my Corsa N), then I realize, at least for those of us who have modified our suspension, the car is no longer the same
. The suspension mods we do, whether lowering springs, KW, or Bilstein, have totally changed the car and so much more significant than N1 vs. N2.Lastly, in some aspects (not weight) the PSS *is* a superior tire with less compression in the shoulder in corners, better tread wear, etc.. It is proven to be faster in a race track (2 seconds in 1.6 mile course, don't know the car) and very likely will become the only tire available for Porsche in the future. This major change alone should make you question: If the tire changes so much, does the N really matter?
FWIW, I am local to one of the biggest Porsche tire dealers in the USA (Wheel Enhancement), and their recommendation is Super Pilot over Pilot. My humble opinion for OP:
Street tires: Michelin Pilot Super Sport
R compound: Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa, non N, or Toyo Roxes 888 (non N and used by a major tuner TPC).
Last edited by cannga; 08-12-2011 at 12:33 PM.
#17
08-12-2011, 01:33 PM
Michelin PSS on mine all around. I didn't even think twice about it.
It wouldn't surprise me if Nx rating was primarily for liability concerns.
Also a lucrative OEM deal between Porsche and Michelin could have involved a clause in the contract that stated Michelin could only ever encourage N-spec tires on a Porsche. Porsche of course in turn orders lots of N-spec tires at their factory and makes sure their dealers put N-Spec tires on the car where their customers pay a premium for them.
I hope the guys who inked that deal got a nice commission.
How is that for an argument? Not a conspiracy by any means, it's just business.
You'd really need an independent lab to perform a dissection and complete scientific analysis an N-Spec tire vs. non-N-Spec tire of the same make and size to determine if it truly is such a different and superior tire for the Porsche.
Link that and maybe I'd believe N-spec are special. Good luck
It wouldn't surprise me if Nx rating was primarily for liability concerns.
Also a lucrative OEM deal between Porsche and Michelin could have involved a clause in the contract that stated Michelin could only ever encourage N-spec tires on a Porsche. Porsche of course in turn orders lots of N-spec tires at their factory and makes sure their dealers put N-Spec tires on the car where their customers pay a premium for them.
I hope the guys who inked that deal got a nice commission.
How is that for an argument? Not a conspiracy by any means, it's just business.
You'd really need an independent lab to perform a dissection and complete scientific analysis an N-Spec tire vs. non-N-Spec tire of the same make and size to determine if it truly is such a different and superior tire for the Porsche.
Link that and maybe I'd believe N-spec are special. Good luck
The PSS was developed to replace the PS2 tire. It was tested by Porsche and will most likely be the OEM tire on new Porsche models.
I have never swayed from Porsche spec tires but did this year go with the PSS when I ordered new wheels after seeing comparison testing of the PSS and PS2 and the PSS being a better overall performer and with limited availability of the PS2. I have never been satisfied with Pireli's or Bridgestones so staying with Mich was my priority.
I'm sure once it is approved and N rated it will go up on cost by 30-40%. For now I couldnt be happier with the tire after using PS versions for years. If I was buying a tire use on the track I no doubt would have stayed with an N rated tire. I drive aggressively but intelligently and this tire for me is the best I've used so far on 8 Porsche's. I made my choice with my eyes open and I believe wisely. That would be my advice.
JS
I have never swayed from Porsche spec tires but did this year go with the PSS when I ordered new wheels after seeing comparison testing of the PSS and PS2 and the PSS being a better overall performer and with limited availability of the PS2. I have never been satisfied with Pireli's or Bridgestones so staying with Mich was my priority.
I'm sure once it is approved and N rated it will go up on cost by 30-40%. For now I couldnt be happier with the tire after using PS versions for years. If I was buying a tire use on the track I no doubt would have stayed with an N rated tire. I drive aggressively but intelligently and this tire for me is the best I've used so far on 8 Porsche's. I made my choice with my eyes open and I believe wisely. That would be my advice.
JS
. But please leave the BS alone 
.
#18
08-12-2011, 03:01 PM
Registered User
After over 10 years of playing with different tires and ratings on AWD Porsches, I honestly don't know what to think anymore. I run Hankook Ventus V12's on my Turbo now. Everything wears so fast I have a hard time justifying spending any more money than the Hankooks already cost.
#19
08-12-2011, 03:17 PM
There are atleast a half dozen tires out there that will perform as good and in most cases better than the OE Nspec and cost less too. But if you want to pay more for less and buy the "Porsche specific compound", go right ahead.
#20
08-12-2011, 05:31 PM
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There really is no argument where Porsche and Michelin is concerned. As i said earlier Michelin makes both PS2 and PSS yet draw a clear line in the sand. Financially there is nothing for either to gain or lose. You can speculate all you like but the bottom line is if you can't back up your speculation in writing from either Porsche or Michelin then it's all just a figment of your own imagination.....a feel good if you will.....to justify the saving you advantaged. But thats the short and long of it. If you're happy with the saving then terrific but there's no point having a lend of yourself in the process that its all Kosher with either manufacturer because its not.
Again, pure unadulterated speculation Jersey. You speak as if you're on Porsches R and D team. It's funny how human nature will always bring about a sense of justification over ones purchases but in reality there is no need. There is nothing wrong with making a saving but please don't have a lend of yourself in the process. There's no need for that here on the 6. If and when Porsche uses the PSS tread pattern and assigns an N rating you can rest assured that the rubber compound will be different. Again, Michelin get paid on a tire sale whether it's for a non N or an N spec tire so i fail to see the (assumed) gain in misleading the general public. R and D costs money...end of story. If the compound is not changed or tweaked in Michelins and Porsches combined R and D processes to maximise the performance of the tire for the Porsche car then that would be an absolute miracle. The only thing i would agree with any of the speculation i've heard to date over the pss is that the car is so good you could pretty well put condoms on the wheels and most drivers will think they are a genius behind the tiller. So on that note i guess why not take the saving? Well the only problem with that thought is that this car (or any Porsche for that matter) was never designed by Porsche with compromise in mind. OK, it's generally accepted some owners choose to compromise for the sake of saving $, some don't. But compromise is usually based on $ so lets be honest here. And after being told in detail by the "them's in the official know", all i can say is: to each his own. But please leave the BS alone .
Again, pure unadulterated speculation Jersey. You speak as if you're on Porsches R and D team. It's funny how human nature will always bring about a sense of justification over ones purchases but in reality there is no need. There is nothing wrong with making a saving but please don't have a lend of yourself in the process. There's no need for that here on the 6. If and when Porsche uses the PSS tread pattern and assigns an N rating you can rest assured that the rubber compound will be different. Again, Michelin get paid on a tire sale whether it's for a non N or an N spec tire so i fail to see the (assumed) gain in misleading the general public. R and D costs money...end of story. If the compound is not changed or tweaked in Michelins and Porsches combined R and D processes to maximise the performance of the tire for the Porsche car then that would be an absolute miracle. The only thing i would agree with any of the speculation i've heard to date over the pss is that the car is so good you could pretty well put condoms on the wheels and most drivers will think they are a genius behind the tiller. So on that note i guess why not take the saving? Well the only problem with that thought is that this car (or any Porsche for that matter) was never designed by Porsche with compromise in mind. OK, it's generally accepted some owners choose to compromise for the sake of saving $, some don't. But compromise is usually based on $ so lets be honest here. And after being told in detail by the "them's in the official know", all i can say is: to each his own
. But please leave the BS alone .If you had experience in any sort of business-to-business / OEM relationships you would at least somewhat understand what I was saying.
Oh by the way, all Porsche aftermarket parts must be inferior to Porsche factory parts. It's a fact because everything Porsche makes is made for the car and cannot be improved upon.
I will go remove the GMG Sways / Springs / dog bones / Toe links that I just put on my car since I am just speculating they make it really better - it's all in my head, "human nature" as you put it. Could you be more snooty with your next post, please?
"Well the only problem with that thought is that this car (or any Porsche for that matter) was never designed by Porsche with compromise in mind"
Did you really just say that?
Do you work for Porsche?
Mods, time to break out the
It's only going downhill from here.
Last edited by djben; 08-12-2011 at 05:42 PM.
#21
08-12-2011, 06:37 PM
By this argument, you're essentially saying "Porsche and Michelin made it perfect, so to use anything else is foolish". So if Porsche designed everything to work in harmony, why did you modify your car? Your car is now out of spec as far as Porsche is concerned, and you've destroyed the perfect balance that they've achieved. Are you saying you know the car better than the Porsche engineers that took millions of $ of R&D to design every single component of the car?
While I agree with some things you say, like how the tires and suspension were tuned to work together. If you go with a new set of tires, you may need to dial in your suspension for optimal grip, but the Michelin PS2 is still very much a tire that compromises performance for sound control and longevity. For someone who doesn't mind louder road noise or shorter tire life, there are better performing option out there, for example the Bridgestone RE-11s. I guarantee that those tires will outperform the Michelin PS2 around any track.
While I agree with some things you say, like how the tires and suspension were tuned to work together. If you go with a new set of tires, you may need to dial in your suspension for optimal grip, but the Michelin PS2 is still very much a tire that compromises performance for sound control and longevity. For someone who doesn't mind louder road noise or shorter tire life, there are better performing option out there, for example the Bridgestone RE-11s. I guarantee that those tires will outperform the Michelin PS2 around any track.
No offense taken. It is a matter of personal opinion. I for one do not believe everything that I read. I have had TONS of different tires on different cars over the years. My last C2S came with PZero assimetrico N spec tires and they were SCARY to drive in the rain. I switched over to RE050 N spec and they were MUCH better. So if N spec is such a huge deal why such a tremendous difference in two tires that are both N spec. If N spec is truly a "special" compund, why is it so different between different manufacturers? I highly doubt that if someone were to put on two tires that were exactly the same except one not being N spec, you would be hard pressed to find a difference in performance for most situations (for example PS2 vs PS2 N spec).
Talk about "soapboxing". If you read my post I said I made "my decision" with my eyes open" and that is what I recommended to the OP. I made my choice based on what I believed was good information just like I did with my Europipe exhaust (also not recommended by Porsche), BBS wheels, & the EPL tune coming, all made with knowledge gained from information on this forum and other reliable source and several years of Pcar ownership. The OP asked for opinions and others experiences. That is what he got. I'm sure he has a Porsche manual to read.
. If pointing out the facts is grating with some of you then i make no apology. Quality information is what i believe the OP was looking for, not speculative opinions. My speculation really makes more logical sense than taking what Porsche and Michelin say as the gospel. I gave you two perfectly sound reasons that you basically threw in the dirt.
If you had experience in any sort of business-to-business / OEM relationships you would at least somewhat understand what I was saying.
Oh by the way, all Porsche aftermarket parts must be inferior to Porsche factory parts. It's a fact because everything Porsche makes is made for the car and cannot be improved upon.
I will go remove the GMG Sways / Springs / dog bones / Toe links that I just put on my car since I am just speculating they make it really better - it's all in my head, "human nature" as you put it. Could you be more snooty with your next post, please?
"Well the only problem with that thought is that this car (or any Porsche for that matter) was never designed by Porsche with compromise in mind"
Did you really just say that?
Do you work for Porsche?
It's only going downhill from here.
If you had experience in any sort of business-to-business / OEM relationships you would at least somewhat understand what I was saying.
Oh by the way, all Porsche aftermarket parts must be inferior to Porsche factory parts. It's a fact because everything Porsche makes is made for the car and cannot be improved upon.
I will go remove the GMG Sways / Springs / dog bones / Toe links that I just put on my car since I am just speculating they make it really better - it's all in my head, "human nature" as you put it. Could you be more snooty with your next post, please?
"Well the only problem with that thought is that this car (or any Porsche for that matter) was never designed by Porsche with compromise in mind"
Did you really just say that?
Do you work for Porsche?
It's only going downhill from here.
. Maybe you should front up to Porsche for a job . What i find quite funny is why some speculate when facts are available from both manufacturers to confirm their position with whatever you may or may not be thinking about their products. Logically, neither has anything to lose or gain as i pointed out earlier. The only one throwing quality advice into the dirt is yourself. In so far as my not having any understanding where OEM's are concerned, as a major supplier in the automotive component business i have more OEM relationships than you would have had hot dinners . If a manufacturer offers advice or recommendations, its worth listening to....believe me. But as i said earlier, its a free world.
#22
08-12-2011, 06:59 PM
I see both sides of arguments - no LOL's here; each of us is entitled to do what we are comfortable with. I just want to point out that the N standard is not as strict as Porsche might have you believed. For example, when the Turbo was designed, say it was used with N1 front, N1 rear. Later on N2 replaces N1, and no one knows how significant the change from one N to another is, but everyone switches to N2. In other words, N2 becomes the defacto standard, even though the car was designed with N1, N1.
We had a discussion about this in the past and I am too lazy to do a search now, but in that case, it was the tires for the GT2.
Second, those of us who have used R compound tires. The Turbo's are not even designed for those tires. So do we stick with N tires there? Just playing devil's advocate here. The change from street to R compound overwhelms that of one N to another, no? So why is that ok and not the N change?
Third, I used to think highly of N tires (I paid extra for my Corsa N), then I realize, at least for those of us who have modified our suspension, the car is no longer the same. The suspension mods we do, whether lowering springs, KW, or Bilstein, have totally changed the car and so much more significant than N1 vs. N2.
Lastly, in some aspects (not weight) the PSS *is* a superior tire with less compression in the shoulder in corners, better tread wear, etc.. It is proven to be faster in a race track (2 seconds in 1.6 mile course, don't know the car) and very likely will become the only tire available for Porsche in the future. This major change alone should make you question: If the tire changes so much, does the N really matter?
FWIW, I am local to one of the biggest Porsche tire dealers in the USA (Wheel Enhancement), and their recommendation is Super Pilot over Pilot. My humble opinion for OP:
Street tires: Michelin Pilot Super Sport
R compound: Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa, non N, or Toyo Roxes 888 (non N and used by a major tuner TPC).
We had a discussion about this in the past and I am too lazy to do a search now, but in that case, it was the tires for the GT2.
Second, those of us who have used R compound tires. The Turbo's are not even designed for those tires. So do we stick with N tires there? Just playing devil's advocate here. The change from street to R compound overwhelms that of one N to another, no? So why is that ok and not the N change?
Third, I used to think highly of N tires (I paid extra for my Corsa N), then I realize, at least for those of us who have modified our suspension, the car is no longer the same
. The suspension mods we do, whether lowering springs, KW, or Bilstein, have totally changed the car and so much more significant than N1 vs. N2.Lastly, in some aspects (not weight) the PSS *is* a superior tire with less compression in the shoulder in corners, better tread wear, etc.. It is proven to be faster in a race track (2 seconds in 1.6 mile course, don't know the car) and very likely will become the only tire available for Porsche in the future. This major change alone should make you question: If the tire changes so much, does the N really matter?
FWIW, I am local to one of the biggest Porsche tire dealers in the USA (Wheel Enhancement), and their recommendation is Super Pilot over Pilot. My humble opinion for OP:
Street tires: Michelin Pilot Super Sport
R compound: Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa, non N, or Toyo Roxes 888 (non N and used by a major tuner TPC).
#23
08-12-2011, 07:04 PM
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Join Date: May 2010
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Rep Power: 49 Im not "essentially saying" anything of the like, merely "essentially" pointing out both manufacturers' position and, the speculation thats going on here amongst certain members, none of which can be backed up by either manufacturer, in fact to the contrary.
Firstly I'm not advocating anything here as some seem to believe in a bid to misconstrue the basis of my points. Some need to go back and read my posts. I did say its a free world and owners are free to do as they wish. The issue of performance between the tire appointed by Porsche/Michelin to be the better suited to the car is a separate issue.
No need to get emotional because i pointed out the speculation in your post. Soapboxing?. If pointing out the facts is grating with some of you then i make no apology. Quality information is what i believe the OP was looking for, not speculative opinions.
Your speculation makes no logical sense at all. You even go further by saying Porsches an Michelins words are basically meaningless against your own thinking. I wonder who thinks they are god here. Maybe you should front up to Porsche for a job . What i find quite funny is why some speculate when facts are available from both manufacturers to confirm their position with whatever you may or may not be thinking about their products. Logically, neither has anything to lose or gain as i pointed out earlier. The only one throwing quality advice into the dirt is yourself. In so far as my not having any understanding where OEM's are concerned, as a major supplier in the automotive component business i have more OEM relationships than you would have had hot dinners . If a manufacturer offers advice or recommendations, its worth listening to....believe me. But as i said earlier, its a free world.
Firstly I'm not advocating anything here as some seem to believe in a bid to misconstrue the basis of my points. Some need to go back and read my posts. I did say its a free world and owners are free to do as they wish. The issue of performance between the tire appointed by Porsche/Michelin to be the better suited to the car is a separate issue.
No need to get emotional because i pointed out the speculation in your post. Soapboxing?
. If pointing out the facts is grating with some of you then i make no apology. Quality information is what i believe the OP was looking for, not speculative opinions. Your speculation makes no logical sense at all. You even go further by saying Porsches an Michelins words are basically meaningless against your own thinking. I wonder who thinks they are god here
. Maybe you should front up to Porsche for a job . What i find quite funny is why some speculate when facts are available from both manufacturers to confirm their position with whatever you may or may not be thinking about their products. Logically, neither has anything to lose or gain as i pointed out earlier. The only one throwing quality advice into the dirt is yourself. In so far as my not having any understanding where OEM's are concerned, as a major supplier in the automotive component business i have more OEM relationships than you would have had hot dinners . If a manufacturer offers advice or recommendations, its worth listening to....believe me. But as i said earlier, its a free world."
"
#24
08-12-2011, 07:22 PM
If issues of legal liability (ever wonder why cars come with so much understeer from the factory?) and highly dynamic and complex OEM business relationships which result in strong and sometimes seemingly odd policies make no logical sense to you, I'm done casting my pearls before swine.
""
"
". Its become a very entertaining discussion if i must say even though some have taken what I've said pretty hard . I hope the OP is having a chuckle 
. Oh well :roll eyes:.But on the point of liability, understeer and the likes Porsches are still able to be driven flat nacker and judged by Pros as being some of the best cars on offer on the planet....and in stock trim.... So where does that leave the average joe driver of these cars? I've always been a strong advocate that one should firstly (try to) learn how to drive the car at its stock limits (or at least try and get near them without crashing the car)....and thats not saying one can't or shouldn't mod his car. As i said, its a free world (i think). But mods, this tire vs that tire... etc etc is ultimately not going to drive the car for you or make you a better driver.
Last edited by speed21; 08-12-2011 at 07:26 PM.
#25
08-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Well I'm glad you can laugh because i know i sure am. Its become a very entertaining discussion if i must say even though some have taken what I've said pretty hard . I hope the OP is having a chuckle . Oh well :roll eyes:.But on the point of liability, understeer and the likes Porsches are still able to be driven flat nacker and judged by Pros as being some of the best cars on offer on the planet....and in stock trim.... So where does that leave the average joe driver of these cars? I've always been a strong advocate that one should firstly (try to) learn how to drive the car at its stock limits (or at least try and get near them without crashing the car)....and thats not saying one can't or shouldn't mod his car. As i said, its a free world (i think). But mods, this tire vs that tire... etc etc is ultimately not going to drive the car for you or make you a better driver.
. Its become a very entertaining discussion if i must say even though some have taken what I've said pretty hard . I hope the OP is having a chuckle . Oh well :roll eyes:.But on the point of liability, understeer and the likes Porsches are still able to be driven flat nacker and judged by Pros as being some of the best cars on offer on the planet....and in stock trim.... So where does that leave the average joe driver of these cars? I've always been a strong advocate that one should firstly (try to) learn how to drive the car at its stock limits (or at least try and get near them without crashing the car)....and thats not saying one can't or shouldn't mod his car. As i said, its a free world (i think). But mods, this tire vs that tire... etc etc is ultimately not going to drive the car for you or make you a better driver.
#26
08-12-2011, 07:58 PM
The more I listen to you, the more I realize you're not worth answering. The OP did not receive any bad advice but he did get insight from actual users of the PSS giving real impressions. Get off your high horse. No one is trying to mislead him or anyone else viewing here.
. Your OP is testimony to that and all your diversionary talk of soap boxes and high horses won't alter that fact.
Last edited by speed21; 08-12-2011 at 11:15 PM.
#27
08-12-2011, 08:11 PM
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#28
08-12-2011, 08:51 PM
I've always been a strong advocate that one should firstly (try to) learn how to drive the car at its stock limits (or at least try and get near them without crashing the car)....and thats not saying one can't or shouldn't mod his car. As i said, its a free world (i think). But mods, this tire vs that tire... etc etc is ultimately not going to drive the car for you or make you a better driver.
#29
08-12-2011, 10:05 PM
Last edited by speed21; 08-12-2011 at 10:09 PM.
#30
08-12-2011, 10:58 PM
No offense taken. It is a matter of personal opinion. I for one do not believe everything that I read. I have had TONS of different tires on different cars over the years. My last C2S came with PZero assimetrico N spec tires and they were SCARY to drive in the rain. I switched over to RE050 N spec and they were MUCH better. So if N spec is such a huge deal why such a tremendous difference in two tires that are both N spec. If N spec is truly a "special" compund, why is it so different between different manufacturers? I highly doubt that if someone were to put on two tires that were exactly the same except one not being N spec, you would be hard pressed to find a difference in performance for most situations (for example PS2 vs PS2 N spec).
. But again, its a free world and each to his own .