Parts just went to fab... Stay tuned

 

Hey Dan, I'd be interested in the set for vtgs!
I'd prefer the set that just replaces the stock plastic pipe.

 

We have Tom from Champion and Dan from Vivid in this thread - surely one of you guys can answer this!!!!

 

Send me an email and we can discuss. I need someone that is willing to work with a prototype part.

 

Could be wrong, but I think Tom is saying that the turbos will not be starved for air, but they will take so much of the available air that their will not be enough cool air flowing over the intercoolers to cool them adequately. Specifically after multiple runs. This could be tested by examining the IAT data from the champion style setup vs that of the Vivid style setup, right?

Dan is saying that they have modified the ducting and that there will be no such issue with adequately cooling the intercoolers and his system will also make more, cooler air available to the intake and thus the turbo.

I guess someone would have to log IAT data of both setups or and/or run multiple dynos back to back to back to simulate multiple hard runs like Tom is mentioning?

 

Let me clarify my question - I wasn't meaning to compare turbo inlet pipes with fenderwell setup. I was just wondering how one knows that the stock inlet pipes have reached their limit and need to be "upgraded" to either aftermarket inlet pipes or fenderwell setup. It would be great if there was a graph showing that with turbo "x" upgrade there is an improvement in low-end torque with larger inlet pipes blah blah blah. I know there was a dyno graph showing how restrictive the 996tt inlet pipes were but I haven't seen anything about the 997tt.

 

My .02 with the caveat that I come from the 996T community:

Very well stated, Tom (very interested in your PM offer, just trying to find when I would have time to do a thorough test). I've actually run calcs on turbo mass flow vs mass flow through the duct (with some generous assumptions about the duct's efficiency) and wouldn't underestimate the amount of air a turbo moves relative to the duct air in a given time. 3rd gen RX-7s used a shared air intake/intercooler duct and at high rpm on a stock 255hp car, it would pull engine bay air backwards through the intercooler and turn it into an interheater, many 13Bs were popped this way.

History aside, I measured my 996 IC inlet ducts to be around 20 in^2 and an 18g compressor at 1.4-1.5bar (35 ish lb/min) will use >75% of available inlet air at 50mph and >38% of it at 100mph -and that's assuming that the outer duct is extremely efficient with no backpressure from the IC core. Air is being pulled backward through the cooler until 40 mph. 68mm VTGs may move a touch more air. Sure there are some high/low pressure areas on the car helping to get air through the duct but the calcs should be in the ballpark.

Notice that these fenderwell setups are on big turbo big hp cars that generally do 4 things: dyno, drag race, do highway pulls, and maybe run the TX mile. This is where thick ICs shine with their ability to absorb heat into their sheer size and keep temps controlled for the duration of the relatively short runs. Once they soak, watch out! I don't want to start another IC p!ssing match but I've seen some "big" cooler logs with fenderwell intakes to 200mph and the temps, while ok-ish, never peaked (they were 40C over ambient and still climbing). If your cup of tea is drag racing or 60-130 #s, get the biggest, least restrictive cores you can find. Same goes for the inlet pipes.

As far as knowing if your inlet piping is choking flow, you can check static pressure at the inlet and see how much vacuum there is -the more vacuum the worse. FWIW, there isn't much pressure drop on 3 feet of 2.5" pipe with some decent bends up to ~450hp worth of airflow. That said, very few cars are engineered with dedicated intercooler ducts that perform as well as those on our cars and unless you are going for BIG power for short durations, I would take a little extra pressure drop from good pipes following conventional routing rather than give up a substantial amount of IC air. Reducing turbo compressor outlet heat with a good intercooler system is a lot more effective than trying to reduce heat by reducing a psi or 2 of pressure drop on the intake side. On the flip side, you may gain some turbo responsiveness (lower boost threshold) with the federwell setup. All boils down to the car's purpose (or perhaps your willingness to run meth, but that's a whole 'nother argument ).

 

Way to go Dan! We need new stuff to keep things interesting.

I had a feeling you mignt step up to the plate. More numbers to crunch...

Good points Earl. I believe the fenderwell set-up is optimized for certain purposes as you describe and targeted for non-endurance type purposes. That's precisely why I decided to go with this set-up since I don't plan on ever heat-soaking my motor, or even come close.

 

Tom/Dan--what''s the thermal conductivity of your carbon fiber material?

 

Meh...

 

Very cool. Those turbos look huge.

 

The guys at BBI in Huntington Beach CA did mine & i love it ,i have upgraded vtg's ,they put the removable socks on which can be changed easily when they get dirty.Def a better bang for your buck than the inlet pipes imho for the guys running a maffless tune.

 

Awesome explanation earl...thank you. You put it into words a little better then I did...

Not sure I understand the question Dave. Carbon fiber material by it's very nature disperses hear much better then plastic, rubber, or metal. That's why we use it a lot on intake plumbing (y-pipes, plenums, etc). What kind of data are you looking to see?

 

What kind of difference did you notice before and after the BBI inlet setup? Does it sound different (i.e. is there a lot more noise from it)? Can you PM me the approx price. Does the engine have to be dropped to remove the old plumbing before putting these on?

 

I was curious about the air being pulled backward through the cooler so I started to do my own calcs. Did you take into consideration the negative pressure caused by the intake which would create a greater pressure differential leading to a compensatory increased flow in the air duct?

That's what I was wondering about Tom. Each material has a thermal conductivity rating. The higher the number the better the material is in conducting heat. Cooks like to use copper bottom pans because copper is such a great thermal conductor (TC=401), pans heat up very quickly; Aluminum=250; Fiberglass = 0.04, etc... Glass wool insulation for a house is 0.04. High density plastics like stock intake tube is around 0.05-0.1 (decent insulator). That's why I'm wondering about carbon fiber you use. I may want to replace my Y-pipe because that is aluminum (I think) and is a good heat conductor. Not something that would be optimal in a hot engine bay when your tyring to keep IATs at a minimum.