Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & the importance of tire's sidewall stiffness.
#16
09-04-2011, 06:56 PM
just removed my RE-11's and put on PSS. Have about 500 miles on the PSS and I want my RE-11's back 
One of the things that I always found a bit amusing was when people would write a tire review and start by saying "...my tire x was down to the cords so I put new tires on - these new tires are fantastic". Well, at that point, anything round and made of rubber will feel better LOL.
Not wanting to do this, I removed the RE-11 with quite a bit of tread left so it would be a better comparison.
I don't pretend to be an expert racer, nor an expert in rubber compounds; this is just one man's opinion.
Before mounting the RE-11 I had PS2 and the original RE050A's that came with the car. I found the RE-11 to be better than the PS2 in pretty much every way. Even wet grip was comparable - i don't drive like a nut in the rain so can't really say this for sure. Was also pleasantly surprised at how they behaved in the cold during the winter.
The PSS is clearly superior to the RE-11 in the noise / comfort dept. they're almost too comfy. it feels as though the car is just not as sharp.
I haven't had it on the track yet, but i've done all the roads/curves i'm very familiar with. no doubt the dry grip is not up to the RE-11. turns at the same speeds do not give the same sense of confidence that i got with the RE-11's. In fact, i'm probably down a few mph in most of the turns on my usual "circuit".
I think this is a similar analysis to what can was saying regarding R-comps vs. street tires. The RE-11 is not an R-comp but is in the extreme category.
My car is not my DD so I'm not concerned as much with noise/comfort. If you DD the car and looking for a great street tire, you'll be very happy with the PSS. If you've used R-Comps, RE-11, etc. and like them, you may not love the PSS.
One of the things that I always found a bit amusing was when people would write a tire review and start by saying "...my tire x was down to the cords so I put new tires on - these new tires are fantastic". Well, at that point, anything round and made of rubber will feel better LOL.
Not wanting to do this, I removed the RE-11 with quite a bit of tread left so it would be a better comparison.
I don't pretend to be an expert racer, nor an expert in rubber compounds; this is just one man's opinion.
Before mounting the RE-11 I had PS2 and the original RE050A's that came with the car. I found the RE-11 to be better than the PS2 in pretty much every way. Even wet grip was comparable - i don't drive like a nut in the rain so can't really say this for sure. Was also pleasantly surprised at how they behaved in the cold during the winter.
The PSS is clearly superior to the RE-11 in the noise / comfort dept. they're almost too comfy. it feels as though the car is just not as sharp.
I haven't had it on the track yet, but i've done all the roads/curves i'm very familiar with. no doubt the dry grip is not up to the RE-11. turns at the same speeds do not give the same sense of confidence that i got with the RE-11's. In fact, i'm probably down a few mph in most of the turns on my usual "circuit".
I think this is a similar analysis to what can was saying regarding R-comps vs. street tires. The RE-11 is not an R-comp but is in the extreme category.
My car is not my DD so I'm not concerned as much with noise/comfort. If you DD the car and looking for a great street tire, you'll be very happy with the PSS. If you've used R-Comps, RE-11, etc. and like them, you may not love the PSS.
#17
09-04-2011, 07:36 PM
just removed my RE-11's and put on PSS. Have about 500 miles on the PSS and I want my RE-11's back
One of the things that I always found a bit amusing was when people would write a tire review and start by saying "...my tire x was down to the cords so I put new tires on - these new tires are fantastic". Well, at that point, anything round and made of rubber will feel better LOL.
Not wanting to do this, I removed the RE-11 with quite a bit of tread left so it would be a better comparison.
I don't pretend to be an expert racer, nor an expert in rubber compounds; this is just one man's opinion.
Before mounting the RE-11 I had PS2 and the original RE050A's that came with the car. I found the RE-11 to be better than the PS2 in pretty much every way. Even wet grip was comparable - i don't drive like a nut in the rain so can't really say this for sure. Was also pleasantly surprised at how they behaved in the cold during the winter.
The PSS is clearly superior to the RE-11 in the noise / comfort dept. they're almost too comfy. it feels as though the car is just not as sharp.
I haven't had it on the track yet, but i've done all the roads/curves i'm very familiar with. no doubt the dry grip is not up to the RE-11. turns at the same speeds do not give the same sense of confidence that i got with the RE-11's. In fact, i'm probably down a few mph in most of the turns on my usual "circuit".
I think this is a similar analysis to what can was saying regarding R-comps vs. street tires. The RE-11 is not an R-comp but is in the extreme category.
My car is not my DD so I'm not concerned as much with noise/comfort. If you DD the car and looking for a great street tire, you'll be very happy with the PSS. If you've used R-Comps, RE-11, etc. and like them, you may not love the PSS.
One of the things that I always found a bit amusing was when people would write a tire review and start by saying "...my tire x was down to the cords so I put new tires on - these new tires are fantastic". Well, at that point, anything round and made of rubber will feel better LOL.
Not wanting to do this, I removed the RE-11 with quite a bit of tread left so it would be a better comparison.
I don't pretend to be an expert racer, nor an expert in rubber compounds; this is just one man's opinion.
Before mounting the RE-11 I had PS2 and the original RE050A's that came with the car. I found the RE-11 to be better than the PS2 in pretty much every way. Even wet grip was comparable - i don't drive like a nut in the rain so can't really say this for sure. Was also pleasantly surprised at how they behaved in the cold during the winter.
The PSS is clearly superior to the RE-11 in the noise / comfort dept. they're almost too comfy. it feels as though the car is just not as sharp.
I haven't had it on the track yet, but i've done all the roads/curves i'm very familiar with. no doubt the dry grip is not up to the RE-11. turns at the same speeds do not give the same sense of confidence that i got with the RE-11's. In fact, i'm probably down a few mph in most of the turns on my usual "circuit".
I think this is a similar analysis to what can was saying regarding R-comps vs. street tires. The RE-11 is not an R-comp but is in the extreme category.
My car is not my DD so I'm not concerned as much with noise/comfort. If you DD the car and looking for a great street tire, you'll be very happy with the PSS. If you've used R-Comps, RE-11, etc. and like them, you may not love the PSS.
My current tire of choice are R888s, however, as they stomp on all of those tires performance wise. Because I can't trailer a set of slicks, the R888s are the best I'm gonna get. The downside is that they are even louder than the RE-11s, and a relatively short life.
#18
09-04-2011, 09:13 PM
Agreed. RE-11s are fantastic tires, especially at the price point. The only down sides I see with those tires are the road noise and weight (they are pretty hefty compared to other brands). Wet performance is solid, and dry grip is excellent, with progressive breakaway. Turn in could be a tad sharper, imo compared to the Advan AD07s, but that's a moot point considering they don't come in turbo sizes. The other impressive thing is how long the RE-11s last. They take track abuse really well compared to other street tires.
My current tire of choice are R888s, however, as they stomp on all of those tires performance wise. Because I can't trailer a set of slicks, the R888s are the best I'm gonna get. The downside is that they are even louder than the RE-11s, and a relatively short life.
My current tire of choice are R888s, however, as they stomp on all of those tires performance wise. Because I can't trailer a set of slicks, the R888s are the best I'm gonna get. The downside is that they are even louder than the RE-11s, and a relatively short life.
#19
09-04-2011, 09:14 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 
Chris and spf, thanks for your excellent inputs. Now you make me curious about RE-11!
Chris, great point. When you (generic you) switch tires and review, must always keep in mind you are comparing old tire with new tire, and keep that consideration in your observation. Tires invariably get noisy and stiff as they age (less rubber).
Regarding R comps, yes, no street tire could compare from strictly performance standpoint. As Heavy Chevy said, stiff wall and sticky rubber is a difficult combination to beat.
Chris, great point. When you (generic you) switch tires and review, must always keep in mind you are comparing old tire with new tire, and keep that consideration in your observation. Tires invariably get noisy and stiff as they age (less rubber).
Regarding R comps, yes, no street tire could compare from strictly performance standpoint. As Heavy Chevy said, stiff wall and sticky rubber is a difficult combination to beat.
#20
09-04-2011, 09:49 PM
Was just lurking and stumbled on the thread.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my track wheels and RE-11's on my OEM street wheels. The RE-11's are a fantastic street tire. They have maybe 80% of the grip of the cups and are quieter. If you're not trying to chase down GT3's, they're a great tire
That said, every time I swap to the track wheels and Sport Cups I think to myself "why do I ever take these off!?!?!" They have SO much more grip and the handling is so much better/sharper. On the GT3 at least, the Cups really feel optimized for the chassis. I have to imagine they would feel similar on a turbo.
Ultimately, there's no way around it. If you want grip, you'll end up with R compounds. If you want longevity and street ability, you'll end up with one of the near DOT R's.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my track wheels and RE-11's on my OEM street wheels. The RE-11's are a fantastic street tire. They have maybe 80% of the grip of the cups and are quieter. If you're not trying to chase down GT3's, they're a great tire
That said, every time I swap to the track wheels and Sport Cups I think to myself "why do I ever take these off!?!?!" They have SO much more grip and the handling is so much better/sharper. On the GT3 at least, the Cups really feel optimized for the chassis. I have to imagine they would feel similar on a turbo. Ultimately, there's no way around it. If you want grip, you'll end up with R compounds. If you want longevity and street ability, you'll end up with one of the near DOT R's.
#21
09-05-2011, 03:12 AM
Trofeos
There is one more tire you need to add into the mix (actually a few), but the one that really intrigues me is the Pirelli Trofeo. They say it's the best of all worlds plus costs less. Availability is another story............I put my name on Bob Woodman's list 1 year ago and still nothing. I do believe pirelli is having mfg'ing problems.
#22
09-05-2011, 08:03 AM
Was just lurking and stumbled on the thread.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my track wheels and RE-11's on my OEM street wheels. The RE-11's are a fantastic street tire. They have maybe 80% of the grip of the cups and are quieter. If you're not trying to chase down GT3's, they're a great tire That said, every time I swap to the track wheels and Sport Cups I think to myself "why do I ever take these off!?!?!" They have SO much more grip and the handling is so much better/sharper. On the GT3 at least, the Cups really feel optimized for the chassis. I have to imagine they would feel similar on a turbo.
Ultimately, there's no way around it. If you want grip, you'll end up with R compounds. If you want longevity and street ability, you'll end up with one of the near DOT R's.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my track wheels and RE-11's on my OEM street wheels. The RE-11's are a fantastic street tire. They have maybe 80% of the grip of the cups and are quieter. If you're not trying to chase down GT3's, they're a great tire
That said, every time I swap to the track wheels and Sport Cups I think to myself "why do I ever take these off!?!?!" They have SO much more grip and the handling is so much better/sharper. On the GT3 at least, the Cups really feel optimized for the chassis. I have to imagine they would feel similar on a turbo. Ultimately, there's no way around it. If you want grip, you'll end up with R compounds. If you want longevity and street ability, you'll end up with one of the near DOT R's.
If I don't like the PSS I can always switch back to RE-11 or try the cups in the spring.
#23
09-05-2011, 08:51 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 Was just lurking and stumbled on the thread.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my track wheels and RE-11's on my OEM street wheels. The RE-11's are a fantastic street tire. They have maybe 80% of the grip of the cups and are quieter. If you're not trying to chase down GT3's, they're a great tire That said, every time I swap to the track wheels and Sport Cups I think to myself "why do I ever take these off!?!?!" They have SO much more grip and the handling is so much better/sharper. On the GT3 at least, the Cups really feel optimized for the chassis. I have to imagine they would feel similar on a turbo.
Ultimately, there's no way around it. If you want grip, you'll end up with R compounds. If you want longevity and street ability, you'll end up with one of the near DOT R's.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my track wheels and RE-11's on my OEM street wheels. The RE-11's are a fantastic street tire. They have maybe 80% of the grip of the cups and are quieter. If you're not trying to chase down GT3's, they're a great tire
That said, every time I swap to the track wheels and Sport Cups I think to myself "why do I ever take these off!?!?!" They have SO much more grip and the handling is so much better/sharper. On the GT3 at least, the Cups really feel optimized for the chassis. I have to imagine they would feel similar on a turbo. Ultimately, there's no way around it. If you want grip, you'll end up with R compounds. If you want longevity and street ability, you'll end up with one of the near DOT R's.
Slow911: Yes I've heard of Trofeo, supposedly very very good, but non-story since it's not available readily (Wheel Enhancement won't even promise anything, as of 3-4 weeks ago when I asked.). Think what happens if one tire is a non repairable puncture. No replacement means the other 3 are gone
unless you want to mix tire (absolute no no).
#24
09-05-2011, 08:59 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254
Time for my own review of PS2 vs. Pilot Super Sport. My excitement for this tire has gone down a little bit. 
First, please note that I am comparing new Super Sport to old PS2; old tires always are noisier and stiffer, so this is one weakness of my comparison. Second I don't have the resources to do the ultimate test: drive car back to back on track, with the tire being the only variable. Third, my evaluation is more or less ... "subjective comparative analysis" in nature - grin. As such, the smaller the difference, the less trustworthy my opinions would be. That is, I am very confident of the difference between PS2 and Pirelli Corsa (it hits you in the face - "once in your life, try R comp"), but much less so about the difference between PS2 and Super Sport. Lastly, as mentioned, I don't claim to be an expert, just a very compulsive driver 
, so please take this "review" with a grain of salt.
At any rate, in comparison to Pilot Sport 2: WRT to road noise, ride comfort, handling feel, and traction, the Super Sport feels much closer to the Pilot Sport 2 than to the Pirelli R comp. In other words, it might be the best street tire in the world, but is still very much a street tire. Noise level is similar between the PS2 and Super Sport; ride comfort is also very similar. In a blind test, I might not be able to tell the difference.
If there is any difference in tire stiffness, I would say that the Super Sport feels a tad firmer than PS2. But this difference, if true, is small.
From a performance stand point, the Super Sport has been tested to beat other street tires on the track, but IMHO don't look for it to beat R comp/"cup" tire. That is not its mission in life.
I believe the improvement in cornering speed from PS2 to Super Sport is due more to improved traction, than to stiffer sidewall. So far, I have tested traction by taking two curves at the limit, one is a 38 mph curve and the other 60 mph (US street legal value). What I do is drive faster each time until my hair stands up (kidding), and note the speed. I have not had time to test the tire in my favorite Los Angeles twisties yet. Anyway, from this very crude test , I am impressed with the Super Sport's traction. As I push my Turbo with Super Sport more and more to the edge, I am more limited by the car's body roll than by any break in traction. The PS2 at the same speed would feel like it's starting to slide, the Super Sport does not, but again, this is a very subjective opinion. (The real test will have to be done with track time back to back.) Traction in corners of the Super Sport is impressive, but the softness of the sidewall IMHO will be the cause of its limitation at the track. I don't doubt Michelin's claim of its improved track time, but I do have some reservation about how significant this improvement would be, at least in amateurs' hands.
The PSS appears to have excellent traction, but is not a revolutionary step up, like I had initially hoped for. The tire has been tested and/or demo'ed with Porsche Turbo, C2S, etc., so in this case the lack of N rating does not mean much and I would definitely take this tire over PS2, even though it has some avoir-du-pois problem. (Despite of Michelin's claim the Super Sport is heavier than PS2 - I'll post the data later.) As a bonus the cost is unbelievably low, and tread wear rating is much improved.
First, please note that I am comparing new Super Sport to old PS2; old tires always are noisier and stiffer, so this is one weakness of my comparison. Second I don't have the resources to do the ultimate test: drive car back to back on track, with the tire being the only variable. Third, my evaluation is more or less ... "subjective comparative analysis" in nature - grin. As such, the smaller the difference, the less trustworthy my opinions would be. That is, I am very confident of the difference between PS2 and Pirelli Corsa (it hits you in the face - "once in your life, try R comp"), but much less so about the difference between PS2 and Super Sport. Lastly, as mentioned, I don't claim to be an expert, just a very compulsive driver , so please take this "review" with a grain of salt.At any rate, in comparison to Pilot Sport 2: WRT to road noise, ride comfort, handling feel, and traction, the Super Sport feels much closer to the Pilot Sport 2 than to the Pirelli R comp. In other words, it might be the best street tire in the world, but is still very much a street tire. Noise level is similar between the PS2 and Super Sport; ride comfort is also very similar. In a blind test, I might not be able to tell the difference.
If there is any difference in tire stiffness, I would say that the Super Sport feels a tad firmer than PS2. But this difference, if true, is small.
From a performance stand point, the Super Sport has been tested to beat other street tires on the track, but IMHO don't look for it to beat R comp/"cup" tire. That is not its mission in life.
I believe the improvement in cornering speed from PS2 to Super Sport is due more to improved traction, than to stiffer sidewall. So far, I have tested traction by taking two curves at the limit, one is a 38 mph curve and the other 60 mph (US street legal value). What I do is drive faster each time until my hair stands up (kidding), and note the speed. I have not had time to test the tire in my favorite Los Angeles twisties yet. Anyway, from this very crude test , I am impressed with the Super Sport's traction. As I push my Turbo with Super Sport more and more to the edge, I am more limited by the car's body roll than by any break in traction. The PS2 at the same speed would feel like it's starting to slide, the Super Sport does not, but again, this is a very subjective opinion. (The real test will have to be done with track time back to back.) Traction in corners of the Super Sport is impressive, but the softness of the sidewall IMHO will be the cause of its limitation at the track. I don't doubt Michelin's claim of its improved track time, but I do have some reservation about how significant this improvement would be, at least in amateurs' hands.
The PSS appears to have excellent traction, but is not a revolutionary step up, like I had initially hoped for. The tire has been tested and/or demo'ed with Porsche Turbo, C2S, etc., so in this case the lack of N rating does not mean much and I would definitely take this tire over PS2, even though it has some avoir-du-pois problem. (Despite of Michelin's claim the Super Sport is heavier than PS2 - I'll post the data later.) As a bonus the cost is unbelievably low, and tread wear rating is much improved.
Last edited by cannga; 09-05-2011 at 09:35 PM.
#25
09-05-2011, 11:52 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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You guys should try the Hankook RS3s. They really are the cat's meow... and not just because they are cheaper
#26
09-06-2011, 07:10 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 62
Posts: 6,379
Rep Power: 344 I was going to try the cups but since we're nearing the end of the warm weather i figured i'd get the PSS and use them thru the winter. Enough good weather to let me know how I like them, and they will definitely be better in the cold than the cups.
If I don't like the PSS I can always switch back to RE-11 or try the cups in the spring.
If I don't like the PSS I can always switch back to RE-11 or try the cups in the spring.
The only issue with mss is the lacking of a N rating and their weight, which puts them in the same catagory as re11s, ok but not optimal, imo.
#28
09-09-2011, 09:18 AM
The takeaway from this whole discussion is you got smoked by a GT3 in the canyons.
Which canyon was this?
I'm having tire problems with my car (911TTs). Already bought two right rears. One was a sidewall puncture (probably on Latigo) and still not sure how that happened and the other a nail.
I never had a puncture in my GT-R in 33k miles of spirited driving.
Which canyon was this?
I'm having tire problems with my car (911TTs). Already bought two right rears. One was a sidewall puncture (probably on Latigo) and still not sure how that happened and the other a nail.
I never had a puncture in my GT-R in 33k miles of spirited driving.
#29
09-09-2011, 02:03 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254
In motorsports, if anyone could make a good generalization, it would probably be about weight. "Weight is the enemy of goodness." Weight means weight transfer, and it means momentum; neither of which is good, or *always* good, for a sports car. The idea of lightness is king is particularly important where the weight is unsprung and rotational force is involved. In other words, better to gain weight at the frame than at the wheel, and better at the wheel than at the tire (angular momentum is proportional to radius - tire is the worst place for you to gain weight as it is furtherst from the center of the wheel).
Anyway, weight is where I have a bone to pick with the Super Sports. I will leave it up to you to decide how much is bad, and I have a couple more points to discuss, but for now, here is my informaltire weight ranking(it was a rainy day
). The list is courtesy of Tire Rack's Tires for Porsche 997 Turbo 235/35-19 front, 305/30-19 rear, pls correct any mistake as needed. The number in bold are the weights of one front plus one rear tire.
R compound Michelin Cup: front/rear 20/27 = 47 lbs
R comp Pirelli Corsa: 21/26 = 47
Continental Extreme Contact DW: 21/28 = 49
Hoosier R6 (not street tire, 315/30-19 rear): 22/27 = 49
Michelin PS2: 22/28 = 50*************************************
Continental SportContact 3: 22/28 = 50
Pirelli Rosso: 22/29 = 51
Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 25/30 = 55****************************************
Bridgestone RE050A: 24/31 = 55
Hankook Ventus V12: 24/32=56
R comp Toyo Roxes R888: 25/31 = 56
Bridgestone RE11: 27/32 = 59
(If you think there is not much of a difference. A Turbo with iron brake and RE11 will have close to 60 lbs. more in unsprung weight than one with PCCB and Michelin Cup!)
Anyway, weight is where I have a bone to pick with the Super Sports. I will leave it up to you to decide how much is bad, and I have a couple more points to discuss, but for now, here is my informaltire weight ranking(it was a rainy day
). The list is courtesy of Tire Rack's Tires for Porsche 997 Turbo 235/35-19 front, 305/30-19 rear, pls correct any mistake as needed. The number in bold are the weights of one front plus one rear tire.R compound Michelin Cup: front/rear 20/27 = 47 lbs
R comp Pirelli Corsa: 21/26 = 47
Continental Extreme Contact DW: 21/28 = 49
Hoosier R6 (not street tire, 315/30-19 rear): 22/27 = 49
Michelin PS2: 22/28 = 50*************************************
Continental SportContact 3: 22/28 = 50
Pirelli Rosso: 22/29 = 51
Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 25/30 = 55****************************************
Bridgestone RE050A: 24/31 = 55
Hankook Ventus V12: 24/32=56
R comp Toyo Roxes R888: 25/31 = 56
Bridgestone RE11: 27/32 = 59
(If you think there is not much of a difference. A Turbo with iron brake and RE11 will have close to 60 lbs. more in unsprung weight than one with PCCB and Michelin Cup!)
#30
09-09-2011, 08:58 PM
Yeah, I remember when you first posted this can. Wish Bridgestone could do something about the weight of the RE-11. That said, I thought they were much better than the PS2 so I didn't mind the extra weight.
Have put more miles on the PSS and started to like them a bit more - until today. did my circuit today and there is a very long high speed sweeper that goes over the expressway. The PSS are just not as good as the RE-11. to have the same level of confidence (meaning, no drama AT ALL) i'm down 3-5mph. I'm doing a track day in 2 weeks that had I known I was doing I would have not changed tires. I would have waited until afterwards.
So, while weight is bad I think i'd give up a bit in that dept. for superior grip. Besides, I can offset some of that extra weight with my PCCB's and light weight Champion wheels
Have put more miles on the PSS and started to like them a bit more - until today. did my circuit today and there is a very long high speed sweeper that goes over the expressway. The PSS are just not as good as the RE-11. to have the same level of confidence (meaning, no drama AT ALL) i'm down 3-5mph. I'm doing a track day in 2 weeks that had I known I was doing I would have not changed tires. I would have waited until afterwards.
So, while weight is bad I think i'd give up a bit in that dept. for superior grip. Besides, I can offset some of that extra weight with my PCCB's and light weight Champion wheels