Hello, everyone

After reading the "will the price of 997T drop when 991T is out" thread, where I expressed my desire to switch from 997T to 997 GT2, I would like to ask those of you who had the fortune to drive both of these cars to, maybe, if you have time, share your opinion.

I have manual 2007 997TT. It has aftermarket exhaust, H&R springs, and HRE P43 20" wheels. 575ps, 760Nm by 19C temperature at the last measurement.

It is a nice car, but for some time now I am watching 997 GT2s. I watch them every day and I sigh. I wonder if I made a mistake buying a Turbo (which was my dream car for a long long time).

I do not track, I drive mostly in the city and on highways, in the summer I go up the Swiss Alps for a ride. In the Alps manual Turbo feels heavy, PDK would probably be much better for these rides, but I want to stick to good ole manual.

I wonder if the switch to significantly more expensive GT2 is worth it, given my car's specs and my usage. Could you please share your experiences with Turbo and stock 997 GT2? If you tried 997.1 or 997.2 GT3 (not RS), I'd be happy to hear your opinion on this car, in comparison to Turbo and GT2, as well.

Thank you all for your time and your views!

 

AWD is a beautiful thing.

 

I've driven stock Turbo, Bilstein Turbo, GT2, and 2010 GT3 2010 (a semi-professional driver and I switched back and forth between my Bilstein Turbo, and the GT3, for about 3-4 hours in twisty canyon roads outside of Los Angeles). The Bilstein modification and link in my signature is a direct result of my testing 2 cars: the GT2 at first, and later the GT3.

Unless you switch to R comp tire like Pirelli Corsa, and modify your suspension to something stiffer than H&R springs, adding sway bars, and change your alignment to more negative camber, there is simply no comparison between GT's and Turbo, especially in very tight corners: the GT cars will *annihilate* the Turbo. The suspension changes I mentioned will make it a lot closer and a more comparable fun driving experiences, and a perfect compromise between your daily driving and Swiss Alps curves. You don't have to do all of them, for example maybe not the tires, but you *will* have to do most of them.
OTOH of course, your wife will not appreciate if you ever take her on any trip with a GT class 911. Very stiff and noisy: it is after all a race car, meant to be that way.
Between GT's and Turbo, I have always been struck by how they are so *totally different* from each others when it comes to ride and handling, rather than how they are actually the same chassis with different tweaking. Despite of its reasonably fast 'Ring time, subjectively the stock Turbo to me is a very boring and lazy car, way too soft, way too mushy, and with lazy steering (GT's steering is razor sharp). I have said many times, without the Bilstein coilover, I would have sold my Turbo a long time ago.

I am sure there will be a ton of answers to this question, but the bottom line is that there is never going to be a perfect answer or a perfect solution to the ride vs. handling dilemma. The GT's are about handling, the Turbo about ride, and a modified Turbo is about ride and handling mix. To add to the confusion, my favorite Porsche for handling is actually the mid-engine Cayman/Boxster (outside of the look of Cayman): their chassis dynamics put our rear engine car to shame. To me their handling is much cleaner and quicker, and I always am trying to convince my wife a Boxster is good for her .

 

listen to this man^^^^^^

that said, if you dont track, the gt2 is a waste.

certainly NOT. a DD car.

what are you longing for in a Gt2? the looks? status?

 

I agree with all that "cannga" said. Heed his advice. I have a 207 turbo and have gone to a GT2RS suspension set-up (including increasing wheelbase, widening the front track, the active suspension module from TPC Racing and a Limited Slip Differential). That combined with an aggressive alignment makes the car feel almost like a GT2, except that the PASM is still programmed for an all wheel drive so as close as the handling is, you can tell it's AWD vs. the GT2.

From a preference perspective I really wanted the turbo and hence it's purchase and subsequent modifications.

 

cannga is dead on correct.

 

I appreciate your taking time to write such an extensive answer, thank you very much!

Regarding noise, I have an exhaust with an automatic flap and I had the tuner fix the flap in an open position, that way I get lots of noise at low revs and I like it like that. I am not married, but none of the girls I drove in the car ever complained about noise. Neither did my mom (well, not the first 2 hours). :-) In any case, I would not care, this is a car FOR ME.

Stiff, noisy - it is fine by me, I like it like that, and I drive my car every day, 10-12k miles a year.

The big thing about Turbo, that cannot be hidden with better suspension, is the extra mass, 150kg of it to be exact, compared to GT2. It must make a difference, I believe, but I never drove GT2.

 

No, no, status is not on my mind at all. What status? To most people it is a regular 911 with ridiculous wing in the back.

Looks - yes, I like the exterior of GT2 very much, both front and back, and the big wing, of course.

GT2 has better aero, it has sharper and more communicative steering (must have, I presume, as there is no power to front wheels), the engine is still the good ole 3.6, but with some improvements, pure rear-wheel drive, and, more importantly, 150kg lighter than Turbo.
I hear GT3 has even better steering than GT2, less mass than GT2 and generally is a better sports car, but I love the punch of turbos.

I just want to climb to the top of the 911 line, for me that is GT2 (RS is out of my league), it is probably significantly scarier and more difficult car to drive than Turbo, but that is OK, in fact I like it, there is so much to learn about it. I would presume Turbo is less predictable on the limit, while GT2 is more predictable, because it is RWD.

Maybe I am full of s... though, then I apologize and hope some of you more knowledgeable drivers with experience would correct me and share your thoughts. I am really going crazy about GT2 but whether this is rational I have no idea.

Why is it not a DD car? IF you mean because of heavy clutch and stiff suspension - that is no problem for me, I've done all this before in another car which was a DD.

 

Almost, but not quite. The 150kg are still there, the AWD is still there.
I have LSD in my car already, and the suspension set-up is done by the tuner, it is not stock camber.

 

From your avatar I presume you have GT2? Then I would also presume you drove a Turbo. Please, tell me more!

 

I was about to comment on this thread, but you have already come to the proper conclusion.

There is about a 250-300 lbs weight difference in the two cars. Not only are the geometry, spring rates, dampers, etc different, but the weight difference is noteworthy.

The weight difference in the two cars probably makes the single biggest difference between a 997TT with proper suspension setup, sways, alignment versus a stock 997GT2...although you can get a 997TT very close to a GT2 for the street.

 

I was waiting, looking forward, to your comment! I remember reading your thread about switching from tuned Turbo to GT2.
Could you write some more about GT2? How is it to drive around (I presume you do this, not only track)? Could you expand on your feelings about it compared to previous RUF Turbo, please?

 

Interesting quotes:
"GT2 gets better the harder you push it, pushing it that hard is tiring"
"GT3 is easier on the driver and better suited to everyday driving"

 

My 997TT was equipped with Bilstein Damptronic adjustable coil overs, a GT2 rear sway, Tarett Engineering drop links, and alignment. Power levels were provided straight line acceleration very similar to a GT2 in terms of trap speed. In typical street conditions, even with aggressive driving, the Turbo handled very similarly to my GT2. Out of the box, the GT2 still has a large amount of understeer, but it is fixable with proper alignment.

On the street, a GT2 rides fine - similar to a Bilstein equipped 997TT - somewhere between sport mode on and off.

 

I believe if one of these "girls" becomes your wife, the beautiful and tolerating angel will instantly turn into one fire breathing dragon and send you to sleep in the garage for even thinking about driving her around in a GT3. My friend's wife last ever ride in a GT3 was when he hit a bump on streets of LA and she flew upwards and her head hit the ceiling. He swore he slowed down.

There is nothing that says any particular person can't use the GT3/GT2 as a daily driver, most people, for example daily drivers in Los Angeles, won't tolerate the deep sunk-in seat, very heavy clutch, brake, steering, noise and poor wet performance of R comp tires, etc., but if you can, go for it *now* before marriage to said dragon. From your tone so far, I think you won't be happy until you try. Do it.

The choice is now whether GT2 or GT3. GT2 is the ultimate and fastest 911, but GT3 is the "purer" and better handling car, and the ultimate track weapon. (If you follow track times of identical courses of the 2 cars, in some corners the GT3 has higher speeds.) It's not going to be an easy decision there either. There is a GT3 forum on rennlist that has a lot of knowledgeable and nutty GT3 guys; you might want to check it out. But... words here or there won't help you as I think you seem to be quite aware already; you really have to take these cars to speed to see the difference. Not a regular test drive, but a *good* drive. For me, at speed and in twisty canyon roads is where they truly differentiate themselves; a regular test drive won't do.

Lastly I forgot to mention if there is one advantage to the Turbo, it's straight line acceleration from start and on exiting corner, where the 4 wheel traction provides distinct advantage. This is why most of the drag trip nuts here modify Turbo; from a standing start GT cannot match the traction.