Blew a Turbo, Whats next?
#17
10-26-2015, 06:54 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 
These are the latest and greatest turbos. You'd need forged rods too.
http://www.xonarotor.com/products/xrturbochargers
http://www.xonarotor.com/products/xrturbochargers
These look great! thanks for sharing. Do you know anyone that has installed these? If so, where they "Plug and Play?"
We'll do!
I have also blown my driver side turbo this summer. I was logging a new tune at WOT and boom! I Immediately stopped the car and my exhaust caught on fire because of the oil that was shot out. The compressor wheel shot through my exhaust and tore a hole through the exhaust (no cats).
I ended up replacing the stock vtg and welding the exhaust, new o2 censers and replaced my melted rear bumper, luckily the engine was not damaged. However it was an expensive failure.
I ended up replacing the stock vtg and welding the exhaust, new o2 censers and replaced my melted rear bumper, luckily the engine was not damaged. However it was an expensive failure.
I was logging my car at the time also. No boom when failure happened, just a lot of white smoke. My issue is, a stock VTG is around $5k. Most aftermarket versions are around 5K for both.
Not to instill fear but, are you concerned about the other turbo failing soon?
Your shaft broke. Most of the time when that occurs( and isn't from an oil issue,) it's due to too much rpm. That crappy forge riveter valve was leaking substantially and the computer just added more angle to the VTG vanes resulting in too much shaft rpm which amplifies the minute imbalances until the shaft flexes and breaks. It takes a LOT of overspeed to make this happen, and I'm sure the high usage duty cycle on the track is what did it in.
#18
10-26-2015, 07:16 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 So can I ask how many miles were on your respective cars when this happened and what other mods were done/how much power were you making?
A few years ago I actually cracked a turbo at Thunderhill on my RX-7 - as in cracked the whole thing in half like an egg. Suddenly had no power after 4500 rpm and new the secondary turbo was gone. Was surprised to find only half a turbo attached to the car. The other pieces must have been scattered at the track.
A few years ago I actually cracked a turbo at Thunderhill on my RX-7 - as in cracked the whole thing in half like an egg. Suddenly had no power after 4500 rpm and new the secondary turbo was gone. Was surprised to find only half a turbo attached to the car. The other pieces must have been scattered at the track.
My car has just over 60K.
Engine Mods,
GT2 RS intercoolers
Cobb E85 tune
1000cc ID injectors
Do88SE intake pipes
Forge Diverter valves (Again, suck!)
I would also lube up the Forge BRV's. I see that the 997.1 isn't even an option on their website anymore.?? I think for my application, a very large VTG setup with them tuned down would make sense. Heat is my worst enemy and my altitude doesn't help.
Thanks Mr. Sambo! Given my track application, what are your recommendations?
#19
10-26-2015, 07:24 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 Ryan,
Very sorry to learn of your troubles. Sounds almost identical to what happened to me several years ago and similar to a situation recounted by Glen, HPR's track manager, that preceded mine so it's an event not unheard of.
My first question would be where did the oil that you lost go? Remember, oil is a liquid and is non-compressible if introduced to the cylinders in any volume. If it was sucked back thru an intercooler and into the motor, you may have bent rods (something has to give), created bearing problems and affected other internals. It should probably be carefully checked. We pulled my motor and did comparative deck height measurements - distance of the piston head from TDC to the edge of the sleeve - to determine if there was a variation between cylinders which there was. We also used a bore scope in to inspect the cylinders. Rods were replaced with Carrillo's and bearings with ARP products along with all the other stuff associated with doing a build and some "as long as we're in there" stuff like welding coolant fittings, new clutch, etc.
If the oil was sucked back thru the motor there's also a very good chance that your MAF's are fouled beyond cleanable repair. After getting everything rebuilt, I chased CEL's and DTC's around for almost a couple of seasons unable to pinpoint the cause. Even though the MAF's voltage tested within acceptable parameters, I finally replaced them mostly out of desperation and the problems were solved.
With regard to the exhaust system, everything in mine was so fouled it had to be completely replaced - headers, exhaust, CAT's, mufflers - along with the intake side - intercoolers, plenum, and turbos. I pretty much went with an Evoms 775 package since they ended up doing the build and then had the tune customized for my usage and situation.
I've had people tell me since that there really was no need to open the motor and everything would be fine but I certainly didn't want to go thru the trouble and expense of replacing all the bolt-ons and then have the motor grenade at a point in the future.
Anyway, I'm very sorry you have to go thru this. It's a troubling and expensive pita. It kept me awake many nights while we sorted things out and eventually made repairs. The good news is we eventually got it right, the car runs strong and I haven't had a CEL or thrown a code for a couple of years now. Give me a call if you want to talk - send me a PM if you don't have my number. Best,
Very sorry to learn of your troubles. Sounds almost identical to what happened to me several years ago and similar to a situation recounted by Glen, HPR's track manager, that preceded mine so it's an event not unheard of.
My first question would be where did the oil that you lost go? Remember, oil is a liquid and is non-compressible if introduced to the cylinders in any volume. If it was sucked back thru an intercooler and into the motor, you may have bent rods (something has to give), created bearing problems and affected other internals. It should probably be carefully checked. We pulled my motor and did comparative deck height measurements - distance of the piston head from TDC to the edge of the sleeve - to determine if there was a variation between cylinders which there was. We also used a bore scope in to inspect the cylinders. Rods were replaced with Carrillo's and bearings with ARP products along with all the other stuff associated with doing a build and some "as long as we're in there" stuff like welding coolant fittings, new clutch, etc.
If the oil was sucked back thru the motor there's also a very good chance that your MAF's are fouled beyond cleanable repair. After getting everything rebuilt, I chased CEL's and DTC's around for almost a couple of seasons unable to pinpoint the cause. Even though the MAF's voltage tested within acceptable parameters, I finally replaced them mostly out of desperation and the problems were solved.
With regard to the exhaust system, everything in mine was so fouled it had to be completely replaced - headers, exhaust, CAT's, mufflers - along with the intake side - intercoolers, plenum, and turbos. I pretty much went with an Evoms 775 package since they ended up doing the build and then had the tune customized for my usage and situation.
I've had people tell me since that there really was no need to open the motor and everything would be fine but I certainly didn't want to go thru the trouble and expense of replacing all the bolt-ons and then have the motor grenade at a point in the future.
Anyway, I'm very sorry you have to go thru this. It's a troubling and expensive pita. It kept me awake many nights while we sorted things out and eventually made repairs. The good news is we eventually got it right, the car runs strong and I haven't had a CEL or thrown a code for a couple of years now. Give me a call if you want to talk - send me a PM if you don't have my number. Best,
Your incident sounded much worse than mine.
All the oil came out the hot side of the turbo filling my exhaust with oil. John said it looked like a "James Bond" Scene.
Anyhow, I may give you a call regarding your thought process and your resolution to the problem.
#20
10-26-2015, 07:38 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132
Intercoolers are also shot.
These are the GT2 RS intercoolers used for 1 season (4 track days.) I used JB weld on the end caps (good for 600F at 10 mins and rated stable at 550F at 3960 PSI.)
Mine not only leak on the clamping surface but also, the core side. These intercoolers were ran for less than 1 year. Another 6speed member, Pwdrhound, also has the core side leak after 3 years.
These are the GT2 RS intercoolers used for 1 season (4 track days.) I used JB weld on the end caps (good for 600F at 10 mins and rated stable at 550F at 3960 PSI.)
Mine not only leak on the clamping surface but also, the core side. These intercoolers were ran for less than 1 year. Another 6speed member, Pwdrhound, also has the core side leak after 3 years.
#23
10-26-2015, 08:45 PM
Hey Dean,
Your incident sounded much worse than mine.
All the oil came out the hot side of the turbo filling my exhaust with oil. John said it looked like a "James Bond" Scene.
Anyhow, I may give you a call regarding your thought process and your resolution to the problem.
Your incident sounded much worse than mine.
All the oil came out the hot side of the turbo filling my exhaust with oil. John said it looked like a "James Bond" Scene.
Anyhow, I may give you a call regarding your thought process and your resolution to the problem.
Cheers
#26
10-26-2015, 10:07 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 Honestly, He had a leak on his after a pressure test. He made me decide to check mine also. I had an even worse result.
The VTG's produce a lot of heat with induced pressure.
With tune modifications, we are dealing with a thermal issue. In my opinion, The GT2 intercoolers are very weak after a few consistent heat cycles. Bend a spoon a few times and, it eventually breaks. Maybe its magic?
Me neither but, I was running a tune and had crappy BRV's.
#27
10-26-2015, 10:24 PM
Elite, I have a video of your car deploying the James Bond smoke screen all the way down the back straight at 130+. I was coming into turn 8 and it was impressive. I'll load it up onto Youtube tomorrow and post it up.
As far as the GT2RS intercoolers go, I looked at my logs and they were installed 4/2012 so I have 4 hard track seasons on them which equals about 130 hard track hours. I do a boost leak test generally 2x each year and did one last week. I heard a hissing from the passenger one so I pulled them to get a closer inspection and boost leak test them out of the car. Both ICs were drum tight at the end tanks but both leak at the core right at the intake side where the heat is concentrated. This tells me that the cores have gotten heat cycled from the 130+ hour of track duty (equivalent to about 10K track miles) and have become brittle eventually leading to internal cracks and leaks. Granted, the conditions I have subjected the intercoolers to will not be seen by street cars or cars doing the occasional 60-130 or 1/4mile pulls from time to time.
With that said, I still think these intercoolers are great for cars running moderate boost but they are a consumable item like many other things. Elite killed these ICs in the course of 1 year mainly due to the fact that he's running higher boost than I am and also running much more heat through them due to his VTGs at the track. Elite actually melted the plastic ducting that was in contact with the edge of the IC on the intake side. You could definitely see the discoloration of the glue at the intake side (where both he and I have seen the failures of the core) and none at the outlet side. This tells me that they do and excellent job of eliminating heat but the hight heat is killing the core at the very beginning where the hot inlet air is entering. In my case, 4 seasons out of these cores is still cheap all things considered. I have ordered new ones this morning but will be probably bite the bullet and have a set of ICs made using Marston Aerospace cores.
As far as the GT2RS intercoolers go, I looked at my logs and they were installed 4/2012 so I have 4 hard track seasons on them which equals about 130 hard track hours. I do a boost leak test generally 2x each year and did one last week. I heard a hissing from the passenger one so I pulled them to get a closer inspection and boost leak test them out of the car. Both ICs were drum tight at the end tanks but both leak at the core right at the intake side where the heat is concentrated. This tells me that the cores have gotten heat cycled from the 130+ hour of track duty (equivalent to about 10K track miles) and have become brittle eventually leading to internal cracks and leaks. Granted, the conditions I have subjected the intercoolers to will not be seen by street cars or cars doing the occasional 60-130 or 1/4mile pulls from time to time.
With that said, I still think these intercoolers are great for cars running moderate boost but they are a consumable item like many other things. Elite killed these ICs in the course of 1 year mainly due to the fact that he's running higher boost than I am and also running much more heat through them due to his VTGs at the track. Elite actually melted the plastic ducting that was in contact with the edge of the IC on the intake side. You could definitely see the discoloration of the glue at the intake side (where both he and I have seen the failures of the core) and none at the outlet side. This tells me that they do and excellent job of eliminating heat but the hight heat is killing the core at the very beginning where the hot inlet air is entering. In my case, 4 seasons out of these cores is still cheap all things considered. I have ordered new ones this morning but will be probably bite the bullet and have a set of ICs made using Marston Aerospace cores.
Last edited by pwdrhound; 10-26-2015 at 10:32 PM.
#28
10-26-2015, 10:26 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 The .2's log great for temp. One of the best as you heard. But they are under massive flow restriction/pressure and are not robust. Always a compromise. Being that you use E85 you can give up a bit of cooling efficiency for flow. Our 4.5's have a great compromise of both. And with E85 it's the ultinate winning combo at that price in my opinion. For less than most good 3.5's you get a great 4.5 IC. Retail is $2750 with hose but hit me up for better! I also have some turbo cores. We can talk stock, upgraded and clip to help with temps and back-pressure for a track car.
Cheers
Cheers
Agreed Sam, but, " there is always a but, right? "
How long does it take for the 4.5" to heat soak at my altitude, and, when it does, how long does it take for it to properly dissipate the heat?
I don't want to travel the same heat soak path I have in the past. Once hot, recovery time will most likely be longer at that thickness.
GT2 intercoolers are 3.5". Maybe one more inch is all I need?
I truly believe that E85 runs cooler due to its 30% consumption usage. I burn cooler fuel more frequently making intake temps lower with a slightly higher octane rating.
#29
10-26-2015, 10:50 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 Elite, I have a video of your car deploying the James Bond smoke screen all the way down the back straight at 130+. I was coming into turn 8 and it was impressive. I'll load it up onto Youtube tomorrow and post it up.
As far as the GT2RS intercoolers go, I looked at my logs and they were installed 4/2012 so I have 4 hard track seasons on them which equals about 130 hard track hours. I do a boost leak test generally 2x each year and did one last week. I heard a hissing from the passenger one so I pulled them to get a closer inspection and boost leak test them out of the car. Both ICs were drum tight at the end tanks but both leak at the core right at the intake side where the heat is concentrated. This tells me that the cores have gotten heat cycled from the 130+ hour of track duty (equivalent to about 10K track miles) and have become brittle eventually leading to internal cracks and leaks. Granted, the conditions I have subjected the intercoolers to will not be seen by street cars or cars doing the occasional 60-130 or 1/4mile pulls from time to time.
With that said, I still think these intercoolers are great for cars running moderate boost but they are a consumable item like many other things. Elite killed these ICs in the course of 1 year mainly due to the fact that he's running higher boost than I am and also running much more heat through them due to his VTGs at the track. Elite actually melted the plastic ducting that was in contact with the edge of the IC on the intake side. You could definitely see the discoloration of the glue at the intake side (where both he and I have seen the failures of the core) and none at the outlet side. This tells me that they do and excellent job of eliminating heat but the hight heat is killing the core at the very beginning where the hot inlet air is entering. In my case, 4 seasons out of these cores is still cheap all things considered. I have ordered new ones this morning but will be probably bite the bullet and have a set of ICs made using Marston Aerospace cores.
As far as the GT2RS intercoolers go, I looked at my logs and they were installed 4/2012 so I have 4 hard track seasons on them which equals about 130 hard track hours. I do a boost leak test generally 2x each year and did one last week. I heard a hissing from the passenger one so I pulled them to get a closer inspection and boost leak test them out of the car. Both ICs were drum tight at the end tanks but both leak at the core right at the intake side where the heat is concentrated. This tells me that the cores have gotten heat cycled from the 130+ hour of track duty (equivalent to about 10K track miles) and have become brittle eventually leading to internal cracks and leaks. Granted, the conditions I have subjected the intercoolers to will not be seen by street cars or cars doing the occasional 60-130 or 1/4mile pulls from time to time.
With that said, I still think these intercoolers are great for cars running moderate boost but they are a consumable item like many other things. Elite killed these ICs in the course of 1 year mainly due to the fact that he's running higher boost than I am and also running much more heat through them due to his VTGs at the track. Elite actually melted the plastic ducting that was in contact with the edge of the IC on the intake side. You could definitely see the discoloration of the glue at the intake side (where both he and I have seen the failures of the core) and none at the outlet side. This tells me that they do and excellent job of eliminating heat but the hight heat is killing the core at the very beginning where the hot inlet air is entering. In my case, 4 seasons out of these cores is still cheap all things considered. I have ordered new ones this morning but will be probably bite the bullet and have a set of ICs made using Marston Aerospace cores.
Ha, the smoke trail vid might make me laugh.
Great statement Pwdrhound! Thanks for sharing your details.
Street usage, the GT2's probably work? We do beat the hell out of these intercoolers. After finding my leakage, I realized that, I lost 20PSI within 7 second's. Ouch! That might be a .002 sec on a 60-130 run!
Failure was due to intercooler leakage or, diverter failure?
#30
10-26-2015, 11:07 PM
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 132 7 months. I'm no expert but, I don't think my issues have much to do with E85 though. I recall you running this fuel for some time with no issues.?