Ok, ok. lots of fun in here.

I rarely ever drag race,.. and never at a drag strip. The only time I do it is if someone I know is wanting to see what he's got. My past car (A Subaru) was a daily driver, and also a road-course car.

You never see Supras at a road course,.. EVER. And none of them will challenge you at a light.

Turbo response on a street car is the single most important thing to me. The guys with big turbos end up doing nothing but highway pulls, both because they can't hook up in the lower gears,.. and because it gives them a chance to brake-boost and stay in a gear for more than a few seconds.

A big turbo on a road-course car is miserable to drive.

The last time I raced a Porsche was on a road course at Grattan Raceway in Michigan The Porsche was a black 2001 996 Turbo,.. with the front diff removed,. and built engine and a pair of Garret 35 r turbos. The license plate read 1050 WHP

He was on R comps and he later told me that the car had really made more like 1030 on a hub-pack dyno,.. but 1050 sounded better.

I was carrying a passenger, and it took me 4-5 laps to catch him,.. and another 5 or so to get past. By that time my brakes were cooked (Stock brakes with Pagid RS29 pads) and my 180 tread-wear 245 width street tires were way over temp, and the car was all over the road.

Still the best fun I've had.

If you spend 1/2 your time waiting for boost,.. or bogging the launch,.. the other guy is going to win.

I used to live in Scottsdale AZ. And my best friend Greg was in the Scottsdale Exotic Car Club. Easily 1/2 dozen guys in that club had 996 Turbos or GT2's at the time. Many of those had the 750 hp kits installed by Evolution Motorsports nearby. Their 1/4 mile times were typically the same or slower than stock,.. though their trap speeds were a good bit higher.

On the street, an RX7 with 280 WHP would easily walk those guys. Fact not fiction,... like it or not.

As I said before many times (but no one seems to be able to read),.. this rule of thumb changes totally when you run an automatic (or a 2-step),.. as the car stays under power through shifts,.. and can launch under boost. Even then,. that only helps full throttle drag runs. If that guy in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKtO...ature=youtu.be is driving on the way to work at 2,200 rpm and floors it,.. he's going to be waiting for perhaps 3-4 seconds before he sees any boost. Perhaps longer.

So what should he do? Drive to work with the engine sitting at 5-6 k all the time so that he has power under foot when he wants it?

That's fine if it's a shop car and it's purpose is to attend special events a few times a year,.. arriving on a trailer,.. but it makes for a rather annoying street car IMO.

 

Downshift.

 

So, just to be clear..... In your mind, you believe that a 280 whp RWD car will "walk" a 600 whp AWD drive car because of turbo lag?

 

Mind = blown !!!

 

 

OH OH!

 

Nooooooooo

 

Do that,.... DO IT.


1. You downshift 1-2 gears (while I'm accelerating)

2. Wait for the the bigger turbos to spool up (while I'm accelerating)

3. Then go FAST,... for about 1 second (because you had to downshift to perhaps 4,800 rpm,... then wait for the turbos to spool up from idle to boost. Of course by that time the engine had already accelerated the car under it's N/A power to like 5,500 rpm,.. and then of course you'll have to pull the next gear by 6,700 or so to keep from banging into the rev limiter, meaning you were only going really FAST for like 1,200 rpm). (while I'm accelerating)

4. Then you up-shift (while I'm accelerating)

5. Wait for the turbos to come back up (which won't take very long if you shift really fast and don't fully lift off the gas). (while I'm accelerating)

6. Go FAST again,., for a bit more than a second this time as you are going faster, and even though this gear is shorter,.. there is more wind resistance and you've lost some torque multiplication on the trans.(while I'm accelerating)

In such a scenario you are putting down BIG power for perhaps 1/2 the time. If I end up putting down 550 at the wheels,... how much power do you have to put down between 4,500 and 7K to pass me? 1,100 whp? 1,200 wheel?

Do you make that much? Can you hook it up on the street? I realize this is far too complex for many people to understand, but I'm guessing you do. Going quickly is about a LOT more than hp and torque. Power band, shift-recovery, gear ratios (which act as torque multipliers), vehicle weight, etc, etc all affect how quickly a car accelerates.

If you add 50% more power and NOTHING else changes,.. then yes,.. your car will be 50% quicker. BUT,.. if it narrows the power-band,.. becomes laggy,.. adds weight,.. causes traction issues,.. is harder to launch without bogging the engine,.. etc, etc etc,.. then it may only be 20% quicker,.. or perhaps not quicker at all. And often such changes make it far more likely that the driver will screw it up.

Big hp numbers win 100% of the time in a dyno competition (and 60-130 roll-ons). But in the real world,. there are a lot more factors in play.


Anyway,.. that's just my opinion.

Everyone is free to build what they like. The big-turbo roll-race guys are critical to our hobby. They are the life blood of high-end tuning shops. They're the guys that drop $50k on a big engine / turbo / fuel-system build.

This benefits all of us of course,.. as I too like to buy from shops that have a shop race car,.. where they push the envelope of what's possible with a platform,.. and prove to themselves and to us what parts are reliable at various power levels.

I sincerely hope everyone's winter projects go off without a hitch, and everyone has a blast in the new year. I'm very optimistic that it's going to be a great year.

Happy 2016

Cheers.

 

I don't think I've ever been at speed, switched gears let alone downshifted, and been at idle rpms. Is that a Subaru thing?


I don't know if you maybe don't realize, but people aren't putting turbos the size of beach ***** on 997 turbos. They are at full spool ~3500 rpms give or take. Acceleration is pretty violent unless you are rolling around at 40mph in 6th gear and floor it. The only way a car with half or a third of the hp would beat it, is if the 911 turbo wasn't racing at all (aka ricer flyby)

 

Sounds like a ricer fly-by. Here's the perspective from the other vehicle....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Ricer flies by you with their annoyingly loud exhaust. You hear him at full throttle, but wonder if he's actually flooring it because it's not really going anywhere.

2. You ask your buddy in the passenger seat if you should teach this ricer a lesson about power and big turbos.

3. You downshift your car to 3rd from 4th as the ricer is 10 car lengths ahead.

4. As your car spools, you immediately blow by the ricer almost pulling his door off....

5. You then grab 4th gear and leave your foot off the throttle for 2 seconds while you contemplate if they have learned their lesson, but as you sit off throttle, you hear his car back 10 car lengths still at full throttle.

6. You decide to put it to the floor through 4th gear so he understands he didn't get lucky through 1 gear.

7. You adjust your rear view mirror as you're not sure if that is his car any more as it's getting too small to see.

8. You let off the throttle and coast down to the speed limit

9. 15 seconds later, the ricer goes flying by as he tells his friend he beat you.

 

I'd love to see this Duck guy show up at a 1/2 mile airstrip event with his STI. He would get half-tracked all day long.

There are all sorts of people that have never been in a real race that try to rationalize something ridiculous or predict their 1/2 mile trap speed on the forums or event at the airstrip event before it begins and all end up completely humbled afterwards.

 

Sorry,.. I wasn't very clear,.. I was referring to the shaft speed of the turbos. If you're cruising at say,.... 40 or 50 at 2,200 rpm in a car where the turbos "effectively" spool up at 4,500 rpm (like the OP's),.. your turbos will be at a very low rpm,.. perhaps 20k. If you then perform a down-shift,.. they'll be at an even lower shaft-speed after the shift. Now you need to floor it and wait for them to come back up to 50k or wherever they not only move air,.. but pressurize it against what is essentially huge vacuum cleaner (running engine). This takes some period of time,... (referred to as shift-recovery). The more moment or inertia the turbo's rotating assembly has,.. the longer this will take. The stock turbos already laggy in this respect compared to most turbo-charged cars,.. and going to larger turbos that have less torque from their turbine/ hot-side volute combination will cause this shift lag to get even longer.

This is an issue unique to turbo-charged, manual transmission cars. Each owner has to decide for themselves what trade-offs they are comfortable with. Slower response and more peak power? Or vica versa. I want all the power I can get,.. but am not willing to trade ANY power-band to get it.


Have yuu seen the OP's dyno graph? Even flooring the gas at 2k (which you wouldn't do if you were on the street trying to go fast),.. it doesn't come up until 4,300. 3,500 is where these cars come up stock. If he had floored the gas starting at 3,500,.. that torque peak wouldn't have occurred until 5k.

 

Why on Earth would I want to do that? I'm talking about "Street cars on the street,.. with manual transmissions".

Why do you keep bringing up race cars that get towed to a closed airstrip?

I get it,.. if you don't like to drive and just want to go in a straight line at an air-strip,... put an automatic in it, and the biggest turbos you can fit,.. put it on E85 and go nuts.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

 

Lol. My friend has a 98 6sp supra with 55k miles. Guess what? 25k of those are road course miles, he's tracked it for years and it does very well. Just because you don't see them often, doesn't mean they don't see road courses. They do quite well, actually.

To the second statement, lol. I've owned several fd's from stock to 850whp. In stock form, the sequential dip from primary to secondary turbo drops 2psi as the gate cuts over. My car was extremely faster 0-60 on a td08 turbo making 500 wheel. I would launch from a light and look back and most cars would have barely hit the intersection. Note I said intersection, it was on the street.

This thread is full of win.

Also - stock R1 Fd was 0-60 in 5.1, the R2 was 5.2. I can do it in 2.7 with my 920awhp 997 on 280 tread.

 

I seem remember you from EVO and/or DSM forums in the past.

Racing generally implies a competition. If I'm sitting on the freeway and a ricer takes off that's not a race. That's a ricer flyby. A race is when two cars are racing, not just one.

You seem to make quite a few questionable assumptions about a lot of things. Buying a Subaru of course, might be one of them. .