A.W.E. Tuning Project 700S: 660hp on pump and climbing!
#48
05-25-2007, 02:24 PM
Just an FYI.
We have made additional swaybar tabs for 997TT Moton installs.
For those of you that do not know. We have completely disabled PASM with a few keystrokes of the PIWIS tester. We have done a complete write up on the procedure and it's available in a handy pdf format.
If anyone is looking for the ultimate suspension upgrade, please email me. Complete bolt in suspension kits are available. We can offer mild to wild!
mike@awe-tuning.com
We have made additional swaybar tabs for 997TT Moton installs.
For those of you that do not know. We have completely disabled PASM with a few keystrokes of the PIWIS tester. We have done a complete write up on the procedure and it's available in a handy pdf format.
If anyone is looking for the ultimate suspension upgrade, please email me. Complete bolt in suspension kits are available. We can offer mild to wild!
mike@awe-tuning.com
#50
05-26-2007, 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
An email was sent to me from our Engineering Director. His name is Chris Dollery.
Here is his response:
Here is a breakdown of how the various turbo compressor maps compare:
K24: ~32 lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Stock VTG: ~34lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Garrett GT28R: ~34lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Garrett GT28RS: ~37lb/min @ 60% efficiency
AWE Tuning VTG: ~40lb/min @ 60% efficiency
A general rule for calculating a turbo's HP capability at 60% efficiency is: 9.5 multiplied by flow.
Since this is a twin turbo car, multiply that by 2, resulting in:
K24 : 32 x 9.5 x 2 = 608hp
Stock VTG: 34 x 9.5 x 2 = 646hp
Garrett GT28R: 34 x 9.5 x 2 = 646hp
Garrett GT28RS : 37 x 9.5 x 2 = 703hp
AWE Tuning VTG: 40 x 9.5 x 2 = 760hp
Granted, this is a basic formula which does not take into account the turbine design, intercooling, relative efficiency of the engine, etc., but you can see that the numbers are pretty representative of reality with the Garrett's and K24s. And we're just shooting for 700hp, which is well on the conservative side of what our turbos theoretically can do.
We have not touched the turbine side in order to maximize spool up characteristics. We believe a balance of torque and hp is really what the market wants. Big HP numbers with lots of lag and an anemic low end does not make for a very enjoyable driving experience.
----
Please let me know if you have any further questions.
Here is his response:
Here is a breakdown of how the various turbo compressor maps compare:
K24: ~32 lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Stock VTG: ~34lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Garrett GT28R: ~34lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Garrett GT28RS: ~37lb/min @ 60% efficiency
AWE Tuning VTG: ~40lb/min @ 60% efficiency
A general rule for calculating a turbo's HP capability at 60% efficiency is: 9.5 multiplied by flow.
Since this is a twin turbo car, multiply that by 2, resulting in:
K24 : 32 x 9.5 x 2 = 608hp
Stock VTG: 34 x 9.5 x 2 = 646hp
Garrett GT28R: 34 x 9.5 x 2 = 646hp
Garrett GT28RS : 37 x 9.5 x 2 = 703hp
AWE Tuning VTG: 40 x 9.5 x 2 = 760hp
Granted, this is a basic formula which does not take into account the turbine design, intercooling, relative efficiency of the engine, etc., but you can see that the numbers are pretty representative of reality with the Garrett's and K24s. And we're just shooting for 700hp, which is well on the conservative side of what our turbos theoretically can do.
We have not touched the turbine side in order to maximize spool up characteristics. We believe a balance of torque and hp is really what the market wants. Big HP numbers with lots of lag and an anemic low end does not make for a very enjoyable driving experience.
----
Please let me know if you have any further questions.
Can you please elaborate where the 9.5 number came from?
This formula takes into consideration all the efficiency aspects of the engine BTW.
Do you usually calculate your turbo output at 60% efficiency?
I would measure turbo output based on a 68-70% efficiency, which is what you would see in real life. That would put the K24 at 28lbs of air or so.
Are you using stock VTG compressor size information given to you by Borg Warner or based on own calculations made on wheel sizes?
Thanks
#51
05-26-2007, 12:42 PM
Jean-
All of our research has been discussed with BorgWarner about properly modifying the VTG turbos. We are using parts based on data they gave us since we are a direct partner.
In regards to your other question, our Enginnering Director sent me this as his response.
9.5 x flow is a VERY GENERAL rule to approximate hp. It's based on an assumed thermodynamic efficiency. I do not have the derivation in front of me so I can't tell you the exact number. Depending on the specific vehicle the factor could be higher or lower. Based on our experience so far with the 997TT 9.5 seems to be a good guess. Again this is only an estimate of potential power. Once we have finished development we will be able to provide more concrete data.
All of the flow numbers listed are taken from Borg Warner compressor maps and represent approximate peak flow rates. These numbers were given to serve as a point of comparison between the turbos. Actual performance will vary depending on many other factors.
All of our research has been discussed with BorgWarner about properly modifying the VTG turbos. We are using parts based on data they gave us since we are a direct partner.
In regards to your other question, our Enginnering Director sent me this as his response.
9.5 x flow is a VERY GENERAL rule to approximate hp. It's based on an assumed thermodynamic efficiency. I do not have the derivation in front of me so I can't tell you the exact number. Depending on the specific vehicle the factor could be higher or lower. Based on our experience so far with the 997TT 9.5 seems to be a good guess. Again this is only an estimate of potential power. Once we have finished development we will be able to provide more concrete data.
All of the flow numbers listed are taken from Borg Warner compressor maps and represent approximate peak flow rates. These numbers were given to serve as a point of comparison between the turbos. Actual performance will vary depending on many other factors.
Last edited by Josh/AWE; 05-26-2007 at 01:21 PM.
#52
05-26-2007, 03:20 PM
Mike
First of all whatever you are doing is working very good, looking forward to see a 0-300kph acceleration run to validate Mustang dyno data.
Maybe the word joint venture was not used very accurately, Borg Warner has not developped yet any new larger VTG turbo, nor are they likely to do so anytime soon , including for the new 997GT2.
Tuners and turbo builders can, and do change, compressor sizes within the VTG turbo shell and housing but obviously this has many limitations mainly in the heat department. There are tuners with 700HP from 997TTs, with one of them clocking 0-300kph in 21s, but none uses larger VTG turbos.
If there is any source or link published and supporting the HP potential calculation or numbers that you posted earlier as a general rule, please post it, I don't know of any.
The HP thresholds posted are too optimistic, one cannot consider that the maximum flow of a turbo can be used to calculate to the maximum HP potential, that needs to be calculated at around 70% efficiency.
Seriously though congrats on the work done, looking foward to see some real life numbers and great work on the Moton as well
Cheers
First of all whatever you are doing is working very good, looking forward to see a 0-300kph acceleration run to validate Mustang dyno data.
Maybe the word joint venture was not used very accurately, Borg Warner has not developped yet any new larger VTG turbo, nor are they likely to do so anytime soon , including for the new 997GT2.
Tuners and turbo builders can, and do change, compressor sizes within the VTG turbo shell and housing but obviously this has many limitations mainly in the heat department. There are tuners with 700HP from 997TTs, with one of them clocking 0-300kph in 21s, but none uses larger VTG turbos.
If there is any source or link published and supporting the HP potential calculation or numbers that you posted earlier as a general rule, please post it, I don't know of any.
The HP thresholds posted are too optimistic, one cannot consider that the maximum flow of a turbo can be used to calculate to the maximum HP potential, that needs to be calculated at around 70% efficiency.
Seriously though congrats on the work done, looking foward to see some real life numbers and great work on the Moton as well
Cheers
#53
09-28-2007, 04:09 AM
Any new updates on your VTG upgrade? I have heard a lot of good stuff about AWE so I look forward to the results. Checked your site and nothing yet?
One thing I was thinking though...sooner or later that stock clutch is going to fail, especially considering your 700HP goal. Could you guys look into developing a carbon clutch upgrade? I have gotten to sample the RPS carbon/carbon clutch on a high HP Supra and it really impressed me. Pedal effort was light, it handled tremendous HP, and it seems to have an exceptionally long lifespan. I would surmise a properly designed carbon clutch would be perfect for the 996TT/997TT application. I don't think you would even need a twin disc/triple disc option, just a single disc would be able to handle plenty of HP. What do you guys think?
Here's that clutch I was referring to.
One thing I was thinking though...sooner or later that stock clutch is going to fail, especially considering your 700HP goal. Could you guys look into developing a carbon clutch upgrade? I have gotten to sample the RPS carbon/carbon clutch on a high HP Supra and it really impressed me. Pedal effort was light, it handled tremendous HP, and it seems to have an exceptionally long lifespan. I would surmise a properly designed carbon clutch would be perfect for the 996TT/997TT application. I don't think you would even need a twin disc/triple disc option, just a single disc would be able to handle plenty of HP. What do you guys think?
Here's that clutch I was referring to.
Last edited by IIVVX; 09-28-2007 at 04:13 AM.
#54
09-28-2007, 07:32 AM
Any new updates on your VTG upgrade? I have heard a lot of good stuff about AWE so I look forward to the results. Checked your site and nothing yet?
One thing I was thinking though...sooner or later that stock clutch is going to fail, especially considering your 700HP goal. Could you guys look into developing a carbon clutch upgrade? I have gotten to sample the RPS carbon/carbon clutch on a high HP Supra and it really impressed me. Pedal effort was light, it handled tremendous HP, and it seems to have an exceptionally long lifespan. I would surmise a properly designed carbon clutch would be perfect for the 996TT/997TT application. I don't think you would even need a twin disc/triple disc option, just a single disc would be able to handle plenty of HP. What do you guys think?
Here's that clutch I was referring to.
One thing I was thinking though...sooner or later that stock clutch is going to fail, especially considering your 700HP goal. Could you guys look into developing a carbon clutch upgrade? I have gotten to sample the RPS carbon/carbon clutch on a high HP Supra and it really impressed me. Pedal effort was light, it handled tremendous HP, and it seems to have an exceptionally long lifespan. I would surmise a properly designed carbon clutch would be perfect for the 996TT/997TT application. I don't think you would even need a twin disc/triple disc option, just a single disc would be able to handle plenty of HP. What do you guys think?
Here's that clutch I was referring to.
There is nothing there because there is a turbo shortage. We have a kit ready to sell, but no turbos...
We have a huge order in with Borg Warner which has yet to be filled. Once they show up, final pricing will be determined and kits will be shipped.
As for the clutch, we just installed a Stg 2 Sachs kit with AWE flywheel. I feel that the clutch you pictured above is a bit overkill for the application.
Reason being, we had a hard time getting the OEM clutch to slip. It's pretty stout right from the factory. Granted, we don't do a lot of drag launches. Just highway driving and track days.
This is the kit that was installed in our car.
Click below for more details.
http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shar...n&IL=996stage2
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