Trying to decide which springs to get
#31
07-25-2007 | 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by eclou
The Techarts come that way stock.
I am a firm believer in coilovers, but they were largely unavailable when I bought the Techart springs. That being said I am extremely satisfied with the springs alone. I have found that from my past usage of coilovers, "X" amount of adjustability is useless unless you are setting up for races at different tracks, and perhaps for different drivers. 99/100 times the dampeners get set and then aren't touched again.
In regards to the cost argument, these cars are expensive but the parts should not be that much more than other applications. If you think that doing springs alone is a waste of money because of early dampener failure, I would counter by saying you can get the dampeners rebuilt by Bilstein in the US 2-3 times a year for >10 years and still spend less than buying one set of coilovers.
I am a firm believer in coilovers, but they were largely unavailable when I bought the Techart springs. That being said I am extremely satisfied with the springs alone. I have found that from my past usage of coilovers, "X" amount of adjustability is useless unless you are setting up for races at different tracks, and perhaps for different drivers. 99/100 times the dampeners get set and then aren't touched again.
In regards to the cost argument, these cars are expensive but the parts should not be that much more than other applications. If you think that doing springs alone is a waste of money because of early dampener failure, I would counter by saying you can get the dampeners rebuilt by Bilstein in the US 2-3 times a year for >10 years and still spend less than buying one set of coilovers.
With regards to your logic on the ride height/damping adjustable suspensions (like i said before, they're all coilovers, even stock)... It's not necessarily about adjustability of the aftermarket suspension, but more about matching springs rates,dampers, and suspension travel. That's why there are bilstein HD shocks (for normal ride height) and bilstein Sport shocks (for lowered cars).
I agree. Once you set your ride height and damping, it's pretty much set.
If you feel comfortable sacrificing the handling performance of your brand new TT for the sake of appearances, then go for it. If you can get your shocks removed, rebuilt, and reinstalled three times a year for ten years for less than $5K a year, then please post the name of your mechanic. How much are his oil changes, fifty cents?
Good luck
#32
07-25-2007 | 07:40 PM
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Oil changes are free, as are the suspension R&R's. I don't tend to charge myself. Bilstein in Cali does dampener rebuilds at about $100-150 per corner the last I checked. It is more if you want to shorten the pistons, or change the valving. They can make whatever alterations you ask to match the spring rates. Many PCA/BMWCCA racers have been doing this for years as class rules do not allow aftermarket coilovers.
#33
07-25-2007 | 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eclou
Oil changes are free, as are the suspension R&R's. I don't tend to charge myself. Bilstein in Cali does dampener rebuilds at about $100-150 per corner the last I checked. It is more if you want to shorten the pistons, or change the valving. They can make whatever alterations you ask to match the spring rates. Many PCA/BMWCCA racers have been doing this for years as class rules do not allow aftermarket coilovers.
It's good that you can do it yourself, but you're still looking at a tremendous amount of time (10 hours to R&R) on your part, down time (probably a week) for the rebuild (average $500 for all 4), and then an alignment ($200). So ten hours labor, a week's downtime, and $700 later. Even doing it yourself I'd rather just spend the $5K and be done with it. I'll tap out now. I've got to go lowering spring shopping for my Stradale. It just rides too high
#35
07-25-2007 | 08:46 PM
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I think I’ve seen price quotes of Techart for 7500, 9ff for 5800, and Bilstein for 3990 (correction welcome). Would you (or eclou/anyone) please explain the basic differences between the after-market coilovers?<o></o><o></o>
Cost: Why so much price variation? In general, is the more expensive one, like Techart, mechanically or electronically more sophisticated? Am I paying for the name?<o></o><o></o>
Performance: Is the main difference how stiff each system is? The basic premise still holds true: Stiffer shock more or less equals better handling at the expense of ride? Are there other parameters that I should look for?<o></o><o></o>
Versus stock: Are the after-market systems all more “advanced†than stock, or is it just a matter of targeting a different audience, that is, different, NOT better? How could the stock coilover, designed and studied extensively by Porsche I'm sure, be THAT "bad'?
BTW, this has been a good thread to read, thanks everyone.
Cost: Why so much price variation? In general, is the more expensive one, like Techart, mechanically or electronically more sophisticated? Am I paying for the name?<o></o><o></o>
Performance: Is the main difference how stiff each system is? The basic premise still holds true: Stiffer shock more or less equals better handling at the expense of ride? Are there other parameters that I should look for?<o></o><o></o>
Versus stock: Are the after-market systems all more “advanced†than stock, or is it just a matter of targeting a different audience, that is, different, NOT better? How could the stock coilover, designed and studied extensively by Porsche I'm sure, be THAT "bad'?
BTW, this has been a good thread to read, thanks everyone.
Originally Posted by deputydog95
Some of you guys are so missing the point. Those that did springs before other options were available, so be it. However, for those that are shopping now, I wouldn't even consider it.
With regards to your logic on the ride height/damping adjustable suspensions (like i said before, they're all coilovers, even stock)... It's not necessarily about adjustability of the aftermarket suspension, but more about matching springs rates,dampers, and suspension travel. That's why there are bilstein HD shocks (for normal ride height) and bilstein Sport shocks (for lowered cars).
I agree. Once you set your ride height and damping, it's pretty much set.
If you feel comfortable sacrificing the handling performance of your brand new TT for the sake of appearances, then go for it. If you can get your shocks removed, rebuilt, and reinstalled three times a year for ten years for less than $5K a year, then please post the name of your mechanic. How much are his oil changes, fifty cents?
Good luck
With regards to your logic on the ride height/damping adjustable suspensions (like i said before, they're all coilovers, even stock)... It's not necessarily about adjustability of the aftermarket suspension, but more about matching springs rates,dampers, and suspension travel. That's why there are bilstein HD shocks (for normal ride height) and bilstein Sport shocks (for lowered cars).
I agree. Once you set your ride height and damping, it's pretty much set.
If you feel comfortable sacrificing the handling performance of your brand new TT for the sake of appearances, then go for it. If you can get your shocks removed, rebuilt, and reinstalled three times a year for ten years for less than $5K a year, then please post the name of your mechanic. How much are his oil changes, fifty cents?
Good luck
#36
07-25-2007 | 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by eclou
I thought the Stradales had adjustable spring perches?
BTW the R&R with shorter springs is about 3-4 hours. It takes less time b/c of easier clearance.
BTW the R&R with shorter springs is about 3-4 hours. It takes less time b/c of easier clearance.
So you can remove and reinstall your springs at one hour per corner (from jack up to jack down)? That's pretty quick for a DIY'er. Do you have a lift at home?
#37
07-25-2007 | 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga
I think I’ve seen price quotes of Techart for 7500, 9ff for 5800, and Bilstein for 3990 (correction welcome). Would you (or eclou/anyone) please explain the basic differences between the after-market coilovers?
Everything that starts with Techart, RUF, or 9ff is always more expensive than anything else All kidding aside, I have no idea what the difference are between the brands you mentioned. I do know that the Bilstein is an excellent value and it probably the number one choice for pcars looking to enhance their street performance and lower their vehicles. There certainly are better (even more improved handling with the ability to go very low) choices out there. However they are often much more expensive and considerably stiffer. <o></o><o></o>
Cost: Why so much price variation? In general, is the more expensive one, like Techart, mechanically or electronically more sophisticated? Am I paying for the name?
Personally, I think in most cases you are paying for the name when it comes to certain brands. (Just take a look at muffler prices to see what I'm talking about) Again, I am not familiar with these specific suspensions you mentioned other than the Bilsteins. Many of these suspension pieces are built and rebranded for the distributors by the larger suspension factories. Often to the distributors specs.<o></o><o></o>
Performance: Is the main difference how stiff each system is? The basic premise still holds true: Stiffer shock more or less equals better handling at the expense of ride? Are there other parameters that I should look for?
All depends on what you're looking for and where you mostly drive your car. If you can put up with a very stiff suspension, you'll be rewarded with outstanding handling. Most street duty drivers don't want that though. Again, it depends on where you'll be doing most of you're driving. Track monkeys obviously prefer something must stiffer and much lower than what the PSS9's offer and go with the JICS or Motons.<o></o><o></o>
Versus stock: Are the after-market systems all more “advanced†than stock, or is it just a matter of targeting a different audience, that is, different, NOT better? How could the stock coilover, designed and studied extensively by Porsche I'm sure, be THAT "bad'?
Pcar suspensions are not bad at all. They're actually pretty good. However, Porsche tries to balance good handling with a compliant ride. Pcars are driven by a lot of different people with a lot of different preferences. You can't please them all so they go with something in the middle. Hence the offering of PASM to increase this flexibility. I would wager most people can't drive their cars hard enough to go beyond the capabilities of the stock suspension. The problem lies when people put lowering springs on the stock shocks, throwing off the parameters that the porsche engineers had intended. Hell, people on here flip out about changing wings or lips, concerned that it may affect the aerodynamics. I would be much more concerned about altering the suspension.
If most of your driving is from point A to point B with the occasional mashing of the medal, springs will work just fine. For a while... If you prefer your car lower and enjoy some spirited cornering from time to time, you may want to consider something more like the replacement damper/spring combinations.
BTW, this has been a good thread to read, thanks everyone.
Everything that starts with Techart, RUF, or 9ff is always more expensive than anything else
All kidding aside, I have no idea what the difference are between the brands you mentioned. I do know that the Bilstein is an excellent value and it probably the number one choice for pcars looking to enhance their street performance and lower their vehicles. There certainly are better (even more improved handling with the ability to go very low) choices out there. However they are often much more expensive and considerably stiffer. <o></o><o></o>Cost: Why so much price variation? In general, is the more expensive one, like Techart, mechanically or electronically more sophisticated? Am I paying for the name?
Personally, I think in most cases you are paying for the name when it comes to certain brands. (Just take a look at muffler prices to see what I'm talking about) Again, I am not familiar with these specific suspensions you mentioned other than the Bilsteins. Many of these suspension pieces are built and rebranded for the distributors by the larger suspension factories. Often to the distributors specs.<o></o><o></o>
Performance: Is the main difference how stiff each system is? The basic premise still holds true: Stiffer shock more or less equals better handling at the expense of ride? Are there other parameters that I should look for?
All depends on what you're looking for and where you mostly drive your car. If you can put up with a very stiff suspension, you'll be rewarded with outstanding handling. Most street duty drivers don't want that though. Again, it depends on where you'll be doing most of you're driving. Track monkeys obviously prefer something must stiffer and much lower than what the PSS9's offer and go with the JICS or Motons.<o></o><o></o>
Versus stock: Are the after-market systems all more “advanced†than stock, or is it just a matter of targeting a different audience, that is, different, NOT better? How could the stock coilover, designed and studied extensively by Porsche I'm sure, be THAT "bad'?
Pcar suspensions are not bad at all. They're actually pretty good. However, Porsche tries to balance good handling with a compliant ride. Pcars are driven by a lot of different people with a lot of different preferences. You can't please them all so they go with something in the middle. Hence the offering of PASM to increase this flexibility. I would wager most people can't drive their cars hard enough to go beyond the capabilities of the stock suspension. The problem lies when people put lowering springs on the stock shocks, throwing off the parameters that the porsche engineers had intended. Hell, people on here flip out about changing wings or lips, concerned that it may affect the aerodynamics. I would be much more concerned about altering the suspension.
If most of your driving is from point A to point B with the occasional mashing of the medal, springs will work just fine. For a while... If you prefer your car lower and enjoy some spirited cornering from time to time, you may want to consider something more like the replacement damper/spring combinations.
BTW, this has been a good thread to read, thanks everyone.
#38
07-25-2007 | 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by deputydog95
So you can remove and reinstall your springs at one hour per corner (from jack up to jack down)? That's pretty quick for a DIY'er. Do you have a lift at home?
#39
07-25-2007 | 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by eclou
No lift, just 2 harbor freight aluminum jacks and multiple stands. The garage has a/c too which helps. The stock spring/struts take more time because a second person has to push down on the front lower control arm to allow the top of the strut to clear. With the shorter springs, they can almost fall in and out of place. The rears are effortless. You don't even have to disconnect any of the ball joints. And, once the alignment has been set with the shorter springs, you shouldn't have to re-align the car again unless you change the length of the tie rods or trailing arms. That being said, watch me switch to coilovers within a year...
Question for you. I noticed you have GIAC programming in your sig. According to your logic, why not just wait for the Upsolute software to come out. You could have saved a ton of money and accomplished the same thing (sarcasm of course)
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