997 2005-2012 911 C2, C2S, C4, C4S, GTS, Targa and Cabriolet Model Discussion.

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  #46  
Old 04-23-2008, 08:38 AM
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You're both part right and part wrong. It's not the gas that physically moves from one side to the other, it is compression waves moving at the speed of sound along the volume of gas in the intake that give the ram effect. Go study how compression waves propagate along a medium and you'll be most of the way there.

This is a basic but understandable explanation: http://v8soarer.com/intakerunners/index.shtml
 

Last edited by Ian_UK1; 04-23-2008 at 08:43 AM.
  #47  
Old 04-23-2008, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911
I have no idea what your point is. Like I asked before, are you stating that air is being compressed in the intake? Yes or no?
YES. Pressure waves form and reflect which is how the resonance effect occurs

I cannot be any clearer than stating that once the air is in one intake, it WILL NOT, CAN NOT ever reach the other intake. You really should study fluid dynamics. The laws are quite a bit different than they are in a closed environment. An NA engine DRAWS air. The air is not being puhed into it.
You are absolutely wrong, as I have explained over and over again. The reflected (rarefaction) pulse (air) will travel until it reflects off the next surface. It will reach the other intake as there is nothing to stop it since there is an open T-shaped path across the tract.

Pressure does not mean compression of a liquid or a gas. Gas and liquid will always follow the path of least resistance. You are trying to tell us that, somehow, a cylinder on one bank that is trying to suck air in is ignored and a cylinder trying to suck air that is located on the opposite side of the engine will take it instead.
Once again liquid is effectively non-compressible. The cylinder on one bank will not suck all the reflected waves out that bank like some kind of black hole. Some waves still travel against the flow of the intake tract and induce the resonance effect.

So, how about specifically answering my question? Does the air inside the intake become compressed because of resonance or any other factor? This will at least give me an idea of whether to continue with the discussion.
Yes, the air is compressed to form pressure waves. This is the same way sound is carried in air. Those pressure/sound waves can travel against the overall flow of air.

To give you the simplest example, if you and another person are standing across from each other in a wind, the person upstream can still hear you talking despite the wind blowing against the sound waves coming from your mouth. The wind will not cancel out all the sound - the sound waves still pass thru the wind to the opposite side.
 
  #48  
Old 04-23-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_UK1
You're both part right and part wrong. It's not the gas that physically moves from one side to the other, it is compression waves moving at the speed of sound along the volume of gas in the intake that give the ram effect. Go study how compression waves propagate along a medium and you'll be most of the way there.

This is a basic but understandable explanation: http://v8soarer.com/intakerunners/index.shtml
Sorry, 2 different answers cannot be correct. I state as fact that once air is in the intake manifold, it cannot and will not ever get to the other intake manifold. This can only be 100% correct or 100% wrong. It is not partially correct or partially wrong.

Sound is not cause an equal change in the speed of the air. The speed of sound is independent to air speed and is a result of many things, of which, the biggest variables are air temperature and molecular weight. (dry/moist)

I'm curious how many people got their PHD is physics over the internet?
 
  #49  
Old 04-23-2008, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by eclou
YES. Pressure waves form and reflect which is how the resonance effect occurs

You are absolutely wrong, as I have explained over and over again. The reflected (rarefaction) pulse (air) will travel until it reflects off the next surface. It will reach the other intake as there is nothing to stop it since there is an open T-shaped path across the tract.

Once again liquid is effectively non-compressible. The cylinder on one bank will not suck all the reflected waves out that bank like some kind of black hole. Some waves still travel against the flow of the intake tract and induce the resonance effect.

Yes, the air is compressed to form pressure waves. This is the same way sound is carried in air. Those pressure/sound waves can travel against the overall flow of air.

To give you the simplest example, if you and another person are standing across from each other in a wind, the person upstream can still hear you talking despite the wind blowing against the sound waves coming from your mouth. The wind will not cancel out all the sound - the sound waves still pass thru the wind to the opposite side.

Ok, I see you main false starting point. The fact is, the air in the intake system IS NOT compressed. Until you can come to the conclusion that is a fact, there is no need to further try to explain things to you.
 
  #50  
Old 04-23-2008, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911
Ok, I see you main false starting point. The fact is, the air in the intake system IS NOT compressed. Until you can come to the conclusion that is a fact, there is no need to further try to explain things to you.
I am not going to try to pretend I can discuss this phenomenon at the same level you guys are, but I can tell you that in other naturally aspirated resonance tuned intake systems we have in fact measured POSITIVE pressure in the intake from this effect.

For example, the Schrick manifold for the Volkswagen VR6 engine will produce positive pressure over 1k rpms in the midrange, peaking at ~1 psi.

Just another actual data point to consider.
 
  #51  
Old 04-23-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911
Ok, I see you main false starting point. The fact is, the air in the intake system IS NOT compressed. Until you can come to the conclusion that is a fact, there is no need to further try to explain things to you.
I agree completely that there is no more need for your "explanations"
 
  #52  
Old 04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pearlcoupeg35
I was told that the AWE package (that you have) will enable our cars to pull on stock 996TT's......

Any comments on that?
With such a large torque difference I would not think so, out of the hole still would be tough to keep up. But on the move would be much closer.

996TT vs. 996GT3 for a visual...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H96FgEuVaLU
 
  #53  
Old 04-23-2008, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911
SNIP
I'm curious how many people got their PHD is physics over the internet?
We do not agree about much but I agree with ya on this one. So true!
 
  #54  
Old 04-23-2008, 04:39 PM
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sup bro

i was at awe tuning the day they put your car on the dyno....looks great man
 
  #55  
Old 04-23-2008, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by madru17
sup bro

i was at awe tuning the day they put your car on the dyno....looks great man
still have not got the car. I think it clears into Canada tomorrow. We will see. Until then I have to be satisfied with riding the forums and experiencing porsche cars through what you guys have to say.

Wow that was some posting by the professors of air pressure.

I called my buddy a retired physicist specializing in high pressure dynamics from Canada's National Research Council. He told me to beat it when I asked him to weigh in on this.... hahaha
 
  #56  
Old 04-23-2008, 06:25 PM
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wait a minute.. dynod at 350 whp!?!
 
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