Buyer Beware NorthVan997C2S (RE: Fabspeed/EVOMS Muffler Purchase)
#1
07-08-2008, 08:50 AM
Buyer Beware NorthVan997C2S (RE: Fabspeed/EVOMS Muffler Purchase)
Buyer Beware NorthVan997C2S (RE: Fabspeed/EVOMS Muffler Purchase)
Firstly let me say I am not sure if this is in the correct section or not but I though something should be said. I thought I would share the dealings of my transaction with member NorthVan997C2S (Ed). I had agreed to purchase a set of EVOMS mufflers off of a 997S from him that he was selling online on this forum. Now Ed had disclosed that he believed these mufflers were made by Fabspeed for EVOMS. Prior to purchasing the muffler I asked the following questions to clarify fitment and mileage:
To this he had responded:
Now this final paragraph led me to believe that these mufflers were complete and I should not have any issues upon installation. I then went to install them and there is a 3 inch gap between the cat outlet pipe and the muffler inlet pipe. I was a bit perplexed as I had though these mufflers had come of a 997S and were a complete system. I called EVOMS and they did not have an answer for me as to why there was this problem. They also told me that their exhaust systems were not made by Fabspeed and that I should contact Fabspeed as that is what is stamped on the mufflers themselves. Fabspeed at this point was now closed as it was now almost 8pm EST. I contacted Ed and he told me that this issue rang a bell as the shop that installed his mufflers had mentioned something to him about it and they needed to use longer aftermarket exhaust clamps to close the gap. I asked him if he could take a look and see if he still had these clamps. He agreed and later emailed me indicating that they were still on his car.
I looked around for new clamps and could not find something that was appropriate and would work. I had the car in the exhaust shop and spent over $100 and my time trying to find a solution that would not leak. I was ready to give up and waited until yesterday to call Fabspeed directly. They informed me that there is a 5inch extension pipe that should have been included with the system. I proceeded to email Ed and inform him of this omission. I offered to split the cost of these extensions ($75 each and I would pay the shipping customs and duties as I am located in Canada) and he repeatedly refused. He then proceeded to tell me:
Emails of this nature have since gone back and forth to no avail. He tells me repeatedly to take it to an exhaust shop and they can fix it for me, to which I respond that I do not want to half *** a repair on a $100,000 car. I realize I will probably have to bite the bullet on this one but would like to warn and inform other members to be cautious when dealing with this character or anyone else online. I thought purchasing from a prominent member in this community would provide a little more security but apparently not. Thank you for taking the time to read this and learn from my mistake buyer beware.
Firstly let me say I am not sure if this is in the correct section or not but I though something should be said. I thought I would share the dealings of my transaction with member NorthVan997C2S (Ed). I had agreed to purchase a set of EVOMS mufflers off of a 997S from him that he was selling online on this forum. Now Ed had disclosed that he believed these mufflers were made by Fabspeed for EVOMS. Prior to purchasing the muffler I asked the following questions to clarify fitment and mileage:
“I have a few questions about your exhaust if you don't mind. Firstly, can they be used with the stock tips? Is there any type of transferable warranty? I am assuming they fit a 997 C4s, correct? How loud are they in relation to stock mufflers? I have Fabspeed bypass pipes now and I just cannot live with them daily, so I am looking for something a little quieter. How loud would you say they are in relation to stock(non-PSE) and bypass pipes?”
To this he had responded:
“The bypass pipes are very loud, these mufflers will be louder then stock, but not to loud that you can't enjoy your car. I think that they will be louder then a stock PSE muffler in Sport mode, but quieter then the by pass. They were too loud for my needs when combined with the Evo Headers and AWE Cats, so I put my stock muffler on and was able to use both settings, a great solution.
I don't know if they have a warranty, but they are stainless steel so I don't think that will fall apart quickly, and may even out last the car.
They should fit on your car without any issues at all. And the Stock Tips are fine on these, I ran stock 997S tips when they were on my car.”
I don't know if they have a warranty, but they are stainless steel so I don't think that will fall apart quickly, and may even out last the car.
They should fit on your car without any issues at all. And the Stock Tips are fine on these, I ran stock 997S tips when they were on my car.”
Now this final paragraph led me to believe that these mufflers were complete and I should not have any issues upon installation. I then went to install them and there is a 3 inch gap between the cat outlet pipe and the muffler inlet pipe. I was a bit perplexed as I had though these mufflers had come of a 997S and were a complete system. I called EVOMS and they did not have an answer for me as to why there was this problem. They also told me that their exhaust systems were not made by Fabspeed and that I should contact Fabspeed as that is what is stamped on the mufflers themselves. Fabspeed at this point was now closed as it was now almost 8pm EST. I contacted Ed and he told me that this issue rang a bell as the shop that installed his mufflers had mentioned something to him about it and they needed to use longer aftermarket exhaust clamps to close the gap. I asked him if he could take a look and see if he still had these clamps. He agreed and later emailed me indicating that they were still on his car.
I looked around for new clamps and could not find something that was appropriate and would work. I had the car in the exhaust shop and spent over $100 and my time trying to find a solution that would not leak. I was ready to give up and waited until yesterday to call Fabspeed directly. They informed me that there is a 5inch extension pipe that should have been included with the system. I proceeded to email Ed and inform him of this omission. I offered to split the cost of these extensions ($75 each and I would pay the shipping customs and duties as I am located in Canada) and he repeatedly refused. He then proceeded to tell me:
“I am sorry that this isn't working out they way it should, but what I sold you was a set of 997 S mufflers, no clamps, no tips, no warranty. I am not an expert at installing mufflers, so I can only tell you what
I know was done. These mufflers were on two different 997S and they were never an issue. My suggestion is to take the car to a qualified
muffler shop and have them install these on your car, or sell them and let the next guy worry about the problem. These mufflers were a fair price, if you paid full retail then you have a claim.”
I know was done. These mufflers were on two different 997S and they were never an issue. My suggestion is to take the car to a qualified
muffler shop and have them install these on your car, or sell them and let the next guy worry about the problem. These mufflers were a fair price, if you paid full retail then you have a claim.”
Emails of this nature have since gone back and forth to no avail. He tells me repeatedly to take it to an exhaust shop and they can fix it for me, to which I respond that I do not want to half *** a repair on a $100,000 car. I realize I will probably have to bite the bullet on this one but would like to warn and inform other members to be cautious when dealing with this character or anyone else online. I thought purchasing from a prominent member in this community would provide a little more security but apparently not. Thank you for taking the time to read this and learn from my mistake buyer beware.
#2
07-08-2008, 09:03 AM
If it's any help I seem to recall a similar scenario a few weeks ago on this forum or some other (ie. Rennlist, etc).
It involved an eBay deal. I think in that situation the buyer talked to or emailed Fabspeed directly for help but ultimately returned the mufflers to the seller.
I realize it's no consolation but it is a "buyer beware" world these days.
It involved an eBay deal. I think in that situation the buyer talked to or emailed Fabspeed directly for help but ultimately returned the mufflers to the seller.
I realize it's no consolation but it is a "buyer beware" world these days.
#3
07-08-2008, 09:11 AM
Sorry to hear the mishalf that you're dealing with. I still don't understand why the Fabspeed exhaust inlet pipe is 3 in. short to the cat outlet pipe. If the exhaust is built for 997 model car it should fits perfectly, especially brand name like Fabspeed.
Maybe the exhaust was cut prior, did you check the end pipe for any sign of cutting? I have 997 stock cans that fit perfectly with my 996 plumbing without any modification. So the Fabspeed should also fits nicely too.
Get back to your problem, at this point you want to fix the 3 in. gap so have the muffler shop cut a 5 in. stainless steel pipe that has a little larger diameter to connect the two end pipes with clamp. I also believe the stock clamp has enough length to do the job. Most muffler shop may not have the stainless steel in hand so you can have them order one or use their luminize pipe.
Maybe the exhaust was cut prior, did you check the end pipe for any sign of cutting? I have 997 stock cans that fit perfectly with my 996 plumbing without any modification. So the Fabspeed should also fits nicely too.
Get back to your problem, at this point you want to fix the 3 in. gap so have the muffler shop cut a 5 in. stainless steel pipe that has a little larger diameter to connect the two end pipes with clamp. I also believe the stock clamp has enough length to do the job. Most muffler shop may not have the stainless steel in hand so you can have them order one or use their luminize pipe.
#4
07-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Paul, I think you made a fair offer for him to split the cost of extensions, and he should have. By not doing so I certainly would avoid doing business with him in the future as others probably will when they read this.
It's pretty bad when your fellow Porsche owners rip you off.
It's pretty bad when your fellow Porsche owners rip you off.
#5
07-08-2008, 09:47 AM
Paul,
Since you decided to air this in the public forum perhaps you should disclose all the things that we discussed.
First I told you that these were installed by a removed from my first car and reinstalled in my new car by a reputable shop that has lot of experience doing this. As I told you when reinstalling them on my new car (I had purchased a set of AWE Cat's and they were being installed on the car with the existing equipment that was removed from my old car) the shop called me and asked why the Cats were shorter, I told them I didn't know and double checked with Mike at AWE to make sure that they were OK to go with the existing EVO equipment, and was told it should work. After passing this info on to the shop they said on problem we figured out a way around the problem. One of there tech's had a set of longer clamps from another car manufacturer and they worked perfectly. When I went back to to PSE muffler's, I didn't think anything of it until you called.
I didn't advertise these mufflers with Clamps, Tips, or any other parts. They worked fine on 2 different 997S, and they were installed by professionals both times. If you would take your car to a muffler shop that knows what they are doing instead of trying to do it your self then I am sure this wouldn't be an issue.
As for covering the part of the costs to make it work, sorry but I don't feel you have a claim. I sold you mufflers.
Did mufflers arrive? Yes
Were they Damaged? No
Was the item as described, two used EVO mufflers? Yes
I am truly sorry that you are struggling with your DIY project, but sometimes you need to call in the professionals and get them to do the job.
Calling me out on a Forum and threatening to reverse the PayPal payment is going to make your mufflers work. Getting an experienced installer involved will!
I sold you some lightly used (7000 miles) 11000 KM for half price, adding a little for install and you are still ahead. Like you said your car is a $100,000, don't cut corners on it.
Ed
Since you decided to air this in the public forum perhaps you should disclose all the things that we discussed.
First I told you that these were installed by a removed from my first car and reinstalled in my new car by a reputable shop that has lot of experience doing this. As I told you when reinstalling them on my new car (I had purchased a set of AWE Cat's and they were being installed on the car with the existing equipment that was removed from my old car) the shop called me and asked why the Cats were shorter, I told them I didn't know and double checked with Mike at AWE to make sure that they were OK to go with the existing EVO equipment, and was told it should work. After passing this info on to the shop they said on problem we figured out a way around the problem. One of there tech's had a set of longer clamps from another car manufacturer and they worked perfectly. When I went back to to PSE muffler's, I didn't think anything of it until you called.
I didn't advertise these mufflers with Clamps, Tips, or any other parts. They worked fine on 2 different 997S, and they were installed by professionals both times. If you would take your car to a muffler shop that knows what they are doing instead of trying to do it your self then I am sure this wouldn't be an issue.
As for covering the part of the costs to make it work, sorry but I don't feel you have a claim. I sold you mufflers.
Did mufflers arrive? Yes
Were they Damaged? No
Was the item as described, two used EVO mufflers? Yes
I am truly sorry that you are struggling with your DIY project, but sometimes you need to call in the professionals and get them to do the job.
Calling me out on a Forum and threatening to reverse the PayPal payment is going to make your mufflers work. Getting an experienced installer involved will!
I sold you some lightly used (7000 miles) 11000 KM for half price, adding a little for install and you are still ahead. Like you said your car is a $100,000, don't cut corners on it.
Ed
#6
07-08-2008, 09:49 AM
Paul, I think you made a fair offer for him to split the cost of extensions, and he should have. By not doing so I certainly would avoid doing business with him in the future as others probably will when they read this.
It's pretty bad when your fellow Porsche owners rip you off.
It's pretty bad when your fellow Porsche owners rip you off.
#7
07-08-2008, 09:54 AM
Sorry to hear the mishalf that you're dealing with. I still don't understand why the Fabspeed exhaust inlet pipe is 3 in. short to the cat outlet pipe. If the exhaust is built for 997 model car it should fits perfectly, especially brand name like Fabspeed.
Maybe the exhaust was cut prior, did you check the end pipe for any sign of cutting? I have 997 stock cans that fit perfectly with my 996 plumbing without any modification. So the Fabspeed should also fits nicely too.
Get back to your problem, at this point you want to fix the 3 in. gap so have the muffler shop cut a 5 in. stainless steel pipe that has a little larger diameter to connect the two end pipes with clamp. I also believe the stock clamp has enough length to do the job. Most muffler shop may not have the stainless steel in hand so you can have them order one or use their luminize pipe.
Maybe the exhaust was cut prior, did you check the end pipe for any sign of cutting? I have 997 stock cans that fit perfectly with my 996 plumbing without any modification. So the Fabspeed should also fits nicely too.
Get back to your problem, at this point you want to fix the 3 in. gap so have the muffler shop cut a 5 in. stainless steel pipe that has a little larger diameter to connect the two end pipes with clamp. I also believe the stock clamp has enough length to do the job. Most muffler shop may not have the stainless steel in hand so you can have them order one or use their luminize pipe.
I agree, and have told Paul to source out experts that know what they are doing to install these mufflers. As for cutting, they were not cut when in my possession, I cannot comment on the current condition.
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#8
07-08-2008, 10:11 AM
Ed,
There is the implicit assumption that everything required to make the mufflers useable is included in the sale. That is like selling a car with no wheels, you are getting a car as stated but it is not useable. If you got around using the extension pipes by using extended clamps then these clamps should be included or make the situation right by getting the proper solution (ie-extension pipes from Faspeed). There was no mention of missing pipes in the sale or the communication prior to the sale. You did not mention the extended clamps or anything of that nature. This issue was only brought up when I was half way through the install and called YOU, not the other way around. I have now been with an unusable car for over a week now and have wasted hours of mine and others time and money on this headache. As for not saying that any clamps or tips were included, how is one to know that these advertised EVOMS mufflers (which do not have extensions) would have extensions or a need for an additional clamp?
I should not have to fix or modify anything, regardless of how I choose to fix it whether it be at a muffler shop or ordering the correct parts from Fabspeed. You did not once offer to assist with the costs of a muffler shop either so it’s not like I have an incentive to take that route. If you choose to weasel your way out of this on a technicality then that is your prerogative and what goes around comes around. Why not do the right thing and straighten out this situation. I think the offer I proposed was more than fair, it is not as if I am putting the blame solely on you and demanding you pay all my additional expenses.
There is the implicit assumption that everything required to make the mufflers useable is included in the sale. That is like selling a car with no wheels, you are getting a car as stated but it is not useable. If you got around using the extension pipes by using extended clamps then these clamps should be included or make the situation right by getting the proper solution (ie-extension pipes from Faspeed). There was no mention of missing pipes in the sale or the communication prior to the sale. You did not mention the extended clamps or anything of that nature. This issue was only brought up when I was half way through the install and called YOU, not the other way around. I have now been with an unusable car for over a week now and have wasted hours of mine and others time and money on this headache. As for not saying that any clamps or tips were included, how is one to know that these advertised EVOMS mufflers (which do not have extensions) would have extensions or a need for an additional clamp?
I should not have to fix or modify anything, regardless of how I choose to fix it whether it be at a muffler shop or ordering the correct parts from Fabspeed. You did not once offer to assist with the costs of a muffler shop either so it’s not like I have an incentive to take that route. If you choose to weasel your way out of this on a technicality then that is your prerogative and what goes around comes around. Why not do the right thing and straighten out this situation. I think the offer I proposed was more than fair, it is not as if I am putting the blame solely on you and demanding you pay all my additional expenses.
Last edited by Paul540/m3; 07-08-2008 at 10:15 AM.
#9
07-08-2008, 10:12 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 62
Posts: 6,379
Rep Power: 345 
I actually don't really blame Ed at all, sometimes used parts are not totally complete when being sold. He sold you mufflers, you got mufflers, no intentional ommision. If you buy the extensions from FS you're still money ahead. Unfortunately, these things can happen when buying used parts, you can save a bundle, just be 100% sure of what you are buying.
C
C
#10
07-08-2008, 10:27 AM
Paul - unfair to call someone out like this - doesn't appear to me that he violated any sort of moral obligation.
Seems to me confusion over C4S vs C2S is the issue here, and you don't post any follow-up questions when he said they were for a C2S - the car he was quite obviously running them on.
If I was an arbitrator, I'd find on his behalf.
Next.
Seems to me confusion over C4S vs C2S is the issue here, and you don't post any follow-up questions when he said they were for a C2S - the car he was quite obviously running them on.
If I was an arbitrator, I'd find on his behalf.
Next.
#11
07-08-2008, 10:27 AM
I think spliting the cost is a fair compromise.
The Fabspeed muffler system includes the extension pipe so it would be safe to assume when buying this muffler system (without tips), that it would include what comes from Fabspeed to make it fit the car.
The Fabspeed muffler system includes the extension pipe so it would be safe to assume when buying this muffler system (without tips), that it would include what comes from Fabspeed to make it fit the car.
#12
07-08-2008, 10:49 AM
Paul - unfair to call someone out like this - doesn't appear to me that he violated any sort of moral obligation.
Seems to me confusion over C4S vs C2S is the issue here, and you don't post any follow-up questions when he said they were for a C2S - the car he was quite obviously running them on.
If I was an arbitrator, I'd find on his behalf.
Next.
Seems to me confusion over C4S vs C2S is the issue here, and you don't post any follow-up questions when he said they were for a C2S - the car he was quite obviously running them on.
If I was an arbitrator, I'd find on his behalf.
Next.
Fitment is the same on C2S and C4S. I had confirmed this with EVO prior to purchase. The issue is all the parts that make it fit the car were not included, regardless of how he made them fit. These mufflers will not fit a C2S in their current state without these extension pipes. This has been confirmed with Fabspeed as well.
This thread was only created after repeated refusal to come to a compromise on this issue and termination of communication.
Last edited by Paul540/m3; 07-08-2008 at 11:14 AM.
#13
07-08-2008, 10:58 AM
I think it's time for NorthVan997C2S to 'pony up' and split the cost of the 'required' extentions with Paul540/m3 to eliminate any further trashing and drama.
75 bucks seems like an inexpensive way to resolve this unfortunate matter.
In the infamous words of Rodney King . . . . 'Can't we just get along'!
75 bucks seems like an inexpensive way to resolve this unfortunate matter.
In the infamous words of Rodney King . . . . 'Can't we just get along'!
#14
07-08-2008, 11:30 AM
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Not taking any sides, but I have always saw NorthVan997C2S (Ed) as a stand-up member of this forum. In any event, I hope you get the problem resolved and your car up and running soon. I know the feeling of not having the ability to drive your car when you want to.
#15
07-08-2008, 11:45 AM
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Definite misunderstanding in the sales. Both parties are not at fault, just misunderstanding.
Paul has a point with the assumption that the mufflers should fit as an easy bolt on. I will assume the same.
Ed is correct that he only sold the mufflers, nothing more, nothing less.
I know Ed personally and I'm 100% in support of his honesty. He is the kind of person that will give things out for free to his friends.
At the end of the day, we're talking about a very small amount of money to fix the problem. Either parties can easily afford it. I'll contribute $2 if you want me to. Good luck in resolving the problem.
Paul has a point with the assumption that the mufflers should fit as an easy bolt on. I will assume the same.
Ed is correct that he only sold the mufflers, nothing more, nothing less.
I know Ed personally and I'm 100% in support of his honesty. He is the kind of person that will give things out for free to his friends.
At the end of the day, we're talking about a very small amount of money to fix the problem. Either parties can easily afford it. I'll contribute $2 if you want me to. Good luck in resolving the problem.