How much does horsepower weigh?
#31
03-07-2009, 10:37 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Chained to my Laptop....
Posts: 3,124
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Great thread- I had the same questions as the OP initially before commencing with mods. Big problem for me was there is not much "indepentently verified" hard comparison numbers to find for the "typical" combo upgrade (mufflers, cats, headers, intake, plenum etc).
Most of the time all I read are unfounded comments like "oh it feels faster", "more oomph", etc, and other non-quantifiable input- Or, marketing hype on product pages without hard independent data. If I'm planning on dropping $2500-$4000 on performance improving mods I'd at least like to know what I can expect in improvement numbers-wise.
As stated by someone earlier in the thread, the only way to gauge net improvement gains is to baseline dyno-test the car before, and then capture data after each mod. I spent a considerable amount of time experimenting with my 996 and now 997 with different intake / exhaust mods and dyno testing, below is the link to one of my threads with before / after numbers on my current 997 upgrades (intake + mufflers + plenum). Hopefully it helps someone- I don't know if my results are good / bad since there is little other posted before/after data to compare to for other upgrade combos.
Summary of the other thread:
I ended up with +26 whp HP / +28 whp TQ avg. total gain over stock with combo of KN intake, RSS plenum and AfterHours sport pipes. I also dropped some weight since the Afterhours pipes weigh 8lbs each vs. the 22lbs each stock mufflers. No software or anything else modified.
Dyno charts / detailed info: RSS plenum gains verified on my 997- dyno results
Cost Summary: AH pipes = $800, RSS plenum = $500 (used), KN Intake = $225, dyno testing $200.
So it cost me about $1800 for avg gain of 26hp/28tq over stock (and some wicked sound
). Again I don't know if this is comparatively good or bad in regards to $ per HP. I had similar results with this same combo on my 996 (minus plenum, so HP/TQ gain numbers were a bit lower on 996).
As far as ratio of total gain broken down by added part, I would estimate it as:
Intake = 20%
Mufflers = 50%
Plenum = 30%
I'm always hunting for the best bang upgrade combo so if anyone else has data on their combo intake / exhaust upgrades and results please share!
Most of the time all I read are unfounded comments like "oh it feels faster", "more oomph", etc, and other non-quantifiable input- Or, marketing hype on product pages without hard independent data. If I'm planning on dropping $2500-$4000 on performance improving mods I'd at least like to know what I can expect in improvement numbers-wise.
As stated by someone earlier in the thread, the only way to gauge net improvement gains is to baseline dyno-test the car before, and then capture data after each mod. I spent a considerable amount of time experimenting with my 996 and now 997 with different intake / exhaust mods and dyno testing, below is the link to one of my threads with before / after numbers on my current 997 upgrades (intake + mufflers + plenum). Hopefully it helps someone- I don't know if my results are good / bad since there is little other posted before/after data to compare to for other upgrade combos.
Summary of the other thread:
I ended up with +26 whp HP / +28 whp TQ avg. total gain over stock with combo of KN intake, RSS plenum and AfterHours sport pipes. I also dropped some weight since the Afterhours pipes weigh 8lbs each vs. the 22lbs each stock mufflers. No software or anything else modified.
Dyno charts / detailed info: RSS plenum gains verified on my 997- dyno results
Cost Summary: AH pipes = $800, RSS plenum = $500 (used), KN Intake = $225, dyno testing $200.
So it cost me about $1800 for avg gain of 26hp/28tq over stock (and some wicked sound
). Again I don't know if this is comparatively good or bad in regards to $ per HP. I had similar results with this same combo on my 996 (minus plenum, so HP/TQ gain numbers were a bit lower on 996).As far as ratio of total gain broken down by added part, I would estimate it as:
Intake = 20%
Mufflers = 50%
Plenum = 30%
I'm always hunting for the best bang upgrade combo so if anyone else has data on their combo intake / exhaust upgrades and results please share!
Last edited by p0rsch3; 03-07-2009 at 10:43 AM.
#32
03-07-2009, 11:09 AM
Psychic values...
Seems like you got some good deals on the mods and were returned the high side of the frequently-discussed performance returns. So it goes to further the point that, re the OP, it's tough to get much more out of a NA 997 unless you go to the SC spend level.
Turning better track numbers (and driver enjoyment for some) can be efficiently obtained via suspension mods, but for pure speed it tough to get much of a 'knee in the curve'.
For me, as long as I don't think about it too much, I'm extremely satisfied with the power of my 997S. Yep, I'd love to have the SC, and may someday do it. Like some others on this post, having a Cab, I get a better 'sensation' of speed than coupe owners realize. The open top ride has huge psychic value when it comes to performance. You aren't moving any faster, but you sure feel like you are. Reminds me of my kart racing days.
I'll also add, like many of you know, that power mods are a bit like documented addiction symptoms. The first take is thrilling and then the sensation subsides with time - requiring more power to get that feeling back.
I know that the first time I stepped in to a Ford GT, I was blown away. After a while it became (though still amazing) a well accepted and understood level of performance. So I added a supercharger pulley and tune. About 100+ rwhp. A brief return to the thrill and now it's back in the envelope. I don't plan to ever do another mod to the GT. I want it to remain as stock as possible for long-term value.
For the 997, I now know that if I do the SC thing, it will be more to satisfy the need to mod, than the need for speed.
Turning better track numbers (and driver enjoyment for some) can be efficiently obtained via suspension mods, but for pure speed it tough to get much of a 'knee in the curve'.
For me, as long as I don't think about it too much, I'm extremely satisfied with the power of my 997S. Yep, I'd love to have the SC, and may someday do it. Like some others on this post, having a Cab, I get a better 'sensation' of speed than coupe owners realize. The open top ride has huge psychic value when it comes to performance. You aren't moving any faster, but you sure feel like you are. Reminds me of my kart racing days.
I'll also add, like many of you know, that power mods are a bit like documented addiction symptoms. The first take is thrilling and then the sensation subsides with time - requiring more power to get that feeling back.
I know that the first time I stepped in to a Ford GT, I was blown away. After a while it became (though still amazing) a well accepted and understood level of performance. So I added a supercharger pulley and tune. About 100+ rwhp. A brief return to the thrill and now it's back in the envelope. I don't plan to ever do another mod to the GT. I want it to remain as stock as possible for long-term value.
For the 997, I now know that if I do the SC thing, it will be more to satisfy the need to mod, than the need for speed.
Great thread- I had the same questions as the OP initially before commencing with mods. Big problem for me was there is not much "indepentently verified" hard comparison numbers to find for the "typical" combo upgrade (mufflers, cats, headers, intake, plenum etc).
Most of the time all I read are unfounded comments like "oh it feels faster", "more oomph", etc, and other non-quantifiable input- Or, marketing hype on product pages without hard independent data. If I'm planning on dropping $2500-$4000 on performance improving mods I'd at least like to know what I can expect in improvement numbers-wise.
As stated by someone earlier in the thread, the only way to gauge net improvement gains is to baseline dyno-test the car before, and then capture data after each mod. I spent a considerable amount of time experimenting with my 996 and now 997 with different intake / exhaust mods and dyno testing, below is the link to one of my threads with before / after numbers on my current 997 upgrades (intake + mufflers + plenum). Hopefully it helps someone- I don't know if my results are good / bad since there is little other posted before/after data to compare to for other upgrade combos.
Summary of the other thread:
I ended up with +26 whp HP / +28 whp TQ avg. total gain over stock with combo of KN intake, RSS plenum and AfterHours sport pipes. I also dropped some weight since the Afterhours pipes weigh 8lbs each vs. the 22lbs each stock mufflers. No software or anything else modified.
Dyno charts / detailed info: RSS plenum gains verified on my 997- dyno results
Cost Summary: AH pipes = $800, RSS plenum = $500 (used), KN Intake = $225, dyno testing $200.
So it cost me about $1800 for avg gain of 26hp/28tq over stock (and some wicked sound). Again I don't know if this is comparatively good or bad in regards to $ per HP. I had similar results with this same combo on my 996 (minus plenum, so HP/TQ gain numbers were a bit lower on 996).
As far as ratio of total gain broken down by added part, I would estimate it as:
Intake = 20%
Mufflers = 50%
Plenum = 30%
I'm always hunting for the best bang upgrade combo so if anyone else has data on their combo intake / exhaust upgrades and results please share!
Most of the time all I read are unfounded comments like "oh it feels faster", "more oomph", etc, and other non-quantifiable input- Or, marketing hype on product pages without hard independent data. If I'm planning on dropping $2500-$4000 on performance improving mods I'd at least like to know what I can expect in improvement numbers-wise.
As stated by someone earlier in the thread, the only way to gauge net improvement gains is to baseline dyno-test the car before, and then capture data after each mod. I spent a considerable amount of time experimenting with my 996 and now 997 with different intake / exhaust mods and dyno testing, below is the link to one of my threads with before / after numbers on my current 997 upgrades (intake + mufflers + plenum). Hopefully it helps someone- I don't know if my results are good / bad since there is little other posted before/after data to compare to for other upgrade combos.
Summary of the other thread:
I ended up with +26 whp HP / +28 whp TQ avg. total gain over stock with combo of KN intake, RSS plenum and AfterHours sport pipes. I also dropped some weight since the Afterhours pipes weigh 8lbs each vs. the 22lbs each stock mufflers. No software or anything else modified.
Dyno charts / detailed info: RSS plenum gains verified on my 997- dyno results
Cost Summary: AH pipes = $800, RSS plenum = $500 (used), KN Intake = $225, dyno testing $200.
So it cost me about $1800 for avg gain of 26hp/28tq over stock (and some wicked sound
). Again I don't know if this is comparatively good or bad in regards to $ per HP. I had similar results with this same combo on my 996 (minus plenum, so HP/TQ gain numbers were a bit lower on 996).As far as ratio of total gain broken down by added part, I would estimate it as:
Intake = 20%
Mufflers = 50%
Plenum = 30%
I'm always hunting for the best bang upgrade combo so if anyone else has data on their combo intake / exhaust upgrades and results please share!
#33
03-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Chained to my Laptop....
Posts: 3,124
Rep Power: 170
Verde- Well said brother! To put this in perspective, I only mod becuase I am a hopeless mod-a-holic... Hell I have even modified my blender (blendtech commercial) and espresso maker. I'm a freak!
Overall the 997 is fast as-is. I agree that to "really" make HP headway you have to go SC or upgrade to a TT. This mod started for me simply because I wanted better sound and a bit more responsiveness. and in fashion true-to-me, it became a science project. I'm happy with the results and I may add software later but that's about it.
IMHO:
The number one performance improvement on a pcar is driver education / training
Number two is upgrade the sloggy suspension.
Anything else is just gravy..
Overall the 997 is fast as-is. I agree that to "really" make HP headway you have to go SC or upgrade to a TT. This mod started for me simply because I wanted better sound and a bit more responsiveness. and in fashion true-to-me, it became a science project
. I'm happy with the results and I may add software later but that's about it. IMHO:
The number one performance improvement on a pcar is driver education / training
Number two is upgrade the sloggy suspension.
Anything else is just gravy..
#34
03-07-2009, 11:24 AM
Wow, we have a lot in common - though I've never hacked the blender. Usually spend time hacking computers and the like. I'm not enough of an expert, nor do I have deep enough pockets to hack the cars too much.
But your ordered list is spot on. And I totally enjoy the improved performance of the suspension mods I've made. Best possible ROI for me. I care less about speed versus the 'feel'.
But keep going. We're all happy to live vicariously through your own hobbies
But your ordered list is spot on. And I totally enjoy the improved performance of the suspension mods I've made. Best possible ROI for me. I care less about speed versus the 'feel'.
But keep going. We're all happy to live vicariously through your own hobbies
Verde- Well said brother! To put this in perspective, I only mod becuase I am a hopeless mod-a-holic... Hell I have even modified my blender (blendtech commercial) and espresso maker. I'm a freak!
Overall the 997 is fast as-is. I agree that to "really" make HP headway you have to go SC or upgrade to a TT. This mod started for me simply because I wanted better sound and a bit more responsiveness. and in fashion true-to-me, it became a science project. I'm happy with the results and I may add software later but that's about it.
IMHO:
The number one performance improvement on a pcar is driver education / training
Number two is upgrade the sloggy suspension.
Anything else is just gravy..
Overall the 997 is fast as-is. I agree that to "really" make HP headway you have to go SC or upgrade to a TT. This mod started for me simply because I wanted better sound and a bit more responsiveness. and in fashion true-to-me, it became a science project
. I'm happy with the results and I may add software later but that's about it. IMHO:
The number one performance improvement on a pcar is driver education / training
Number two is upgrade the sloggy suspension.
Anything else is just gravy..
#35
03-07-2009, 11:39 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Chained to my Laptop....
Posts: 3,124
Rep Power: 170
LOL!! I'll do what I can... And you summed it up about right, mods are really designed to improve feel of how car drives. My only three gripes on a stock 997:
1. Exhaust is too quiet for a purebred sports car. Cannot hear / feel where to shift. For me the optimal "feel" is more engine / exhaust feedback provided by an aftermarket exhaust. I'm not driving a Lexus or Benz...
2. Suspension too washy. I drive it like I stole it.. Stock suspension has too much wash, sits too high and not enough damping for my driving style. Optimal for me is more direct road feel and better control / turn-in. I want it to feel like a sports car.
3. E-gas is slow to respond on blipping throttle. The response curve mapping for pedal input is slow on the initial press and then ramps up as pedal is depressed. It is not a 1:1 input ratio like a mechanical cable throttle. This means I have to mash the gas pedal to get a good blip for downshift rev matching. I still have not found an available software solution for this, although inexpensive pedal re-mapping software exists for just about every JDM car (Vishnu). I like my gas pedal perky - Only reason I can think that Porsche designed it this way was to prevent yuppies and soccer moms from putting the pcar into a wall or other car when backing up / parking.. LOL
1. Exhaust is too quiet for a purebred sports car. Cannot hear / feel where to shift. For me the optimal "feel" is more engine / exhaust feedback provided by an aftermarket exhaust. I'm not driving a Lexus or Benz...
2. Suspension too washy. I drive it like I stole it.. Stock suspension has too much wash, sits too high and not enough damping for my driving style. Optimal for me is more direct road feel and better control / turn-in. I want it to feel like a sports car.
3. E-gas is slow to respond on blipping throttle. The response curve mapping for pedal input is slow on the initial press and then ramps up as pedal is depressed. It is not a 1:1 input ratio like a mechanical cable throttle. This means I have to mash the gas pedal to get a good blip for downshift rev matching. I still have not found an available software solution for this, although inexpensive pedal re-mapping software exists for just about every JDM car (Vishnu). I like my gas pedal perky
- Only reason I can think that Porsche designed it this way was to prevent yuppies and soccer moms from putting the pcar into a wall or other car when backing up / parking.. LOL
#36
03-07-2009, 11:42 AM
Probably the best first mod for any sports car is a nice set of high quality light forged wheels. Not only is the visual impact positive but the performance advantages are undeniable. In the real world a very nice set of HRE's, BBS's, AMT's etc etc can reduce unsprung weight by close to 40lbs or equivalent to almost 120lbs sprung weight using the x4 method.
After that manual seats are a must but OE GT3 w/o airbags seats are best. Savings here can be close to 25lbs per seat or close to 50lbs total. Of course there is some sacrifice here. As for the rest of the interior remove the rear seats (997 C2/4/S) and get another 10lbs out of the car.
So far we have lost somewhere around 180lbs very easily (however not cheap). The performance increase from these modifications alone is UNDENIABLE and the weight reduction would be equivalent to basically removing the drivers weight from the equation. Just think how much performance is effected with a passenger.
From here there are still some easy weight reduction mods like aftermarket mufflers which can be 20lbs lighter than stock. 200CEL cats will also take another 5 or so LB's.
We are now over 200lbs lighter from what comes down to bolt on mods. You have ,however, sacrificed some comfort with the new seats and some increased sound from the sport mufflers and cats.
From here weight saving gets a little harder. But here are some easy ones...
Carbon Kevlar rear bumper from GMG, Synergy will save close to 10lbs (must have center exit exhaust though)
Carbon Kevlar rear decklid can save another 10lbs (Synergy, MAshaw)
CF roof can save 25lbs but is expensive at over 1.5K from GMG.
PCCB will save some serious unsprung and rotational mass. I would guess the weight reduction here is even better than forged wheels at close to 50lbs or more and equivalent to close to 200lbs sprung weight.
So here is my break down. Let me know what you think.
Easy:
Wheels: 40lbs Unsprung/120 sprung $5000
Seats: 50lbs total $2500
Rear Seat delete: 10lbs $0
Total equivalent wight savings: 180lbs $7500 =$42/pound
Medium:
Mufflers: 20lbs $1500
200 Cel Cats: 5lbs $1500
Total equivalent weight savings: 205lbs $10500 = $51/pound
Hard:
CF/Kevlar Rear Valence: 5lbs $1000
CF Decklid: 10lbs $5000ish
CF Roof: 25lbs $25lbs
PCCB: 200lbs (equivalent) $14,000 (if purchased after order)
Total equivalent weight savings: 445lbs $20500 = $45/pound
Interesting Conclusions
Total actual weight savings:210lbs
Previous car weight: 3500lbs. New actual weight: 3300lbs Equivalent weight: 3055lbs
Car HP=355hp Previous LB/HP= 9.9lbs/hp New act: 9.3lbs/hp Eqv: 8.6lbs/hp
Supercharger Hp= 500ish, Price: $11,000ish
997 SC LB/Hp= 7lbs/hp Price per Hp= $75/hp
Make your own conclusions here.
By the way this is a very very very very rough study...
Jason
After that manual seats are a must but OE GT3 w/o airbags seats are best. Savings here can be close to 25lbs per seat or close to 50lbs total. Of course there is some sacrifice here. As for the rest of the interior remove the rear seats (997 C2/4/S) and get another 10lbs out of the car.
So far we have lost somewhere around 180lbs very easily (however not cheap). The performance increase from these modifications alone is UNDENIABLE and the weight reduction would be equivalent to basically removing the drivers weight from the equation. Just think how much performance is effected with a passenger.
From here there are still some easy weight reduction mods like aftermarket mufflers which can be 20lbs lighter than stock. 200CEL cats will also take another 5 or so LB's.
We are now over 200lbs lighter from what comes down to bolt on mods. You have ,however, sacrificed some comfort with the new seats and some increased sound from the sport mufflers and cats.
From here weight saving gets a little harder. But here are some easy ones...
Carbon Kevlar rear bumper from GMG, Synergy will save close to 10lbs (must have center exit exhaust though)
Carbon Kevlar rear decklid can save another 10lbs (Synergy, MAshaw)
CF roof can save 25lbs but is expensive at over 1.5K from GMG.
PCCB will save some serious unsprung and rotational mass. I would guess the weight reduction here is even better than forged wheels at close to 50lbs or more and equivalent to close to 200lbs sprung weight.
So here is my break down. Let me know what you think.
Easy:
Wheels: 40lbs Unsprung/120 sprung $5000
Seats: 50lbs total $2500
Rear Seat delete: 10lbs $0
Total equivalent wight savings: 180lbs $7500 =$42/pound
Medium:
Mufflers: 20lbs $1500
200 Cel Cats: 5lbs $1500
Total equivalent weight savings: 205lbs $10500 = $51/pound
Hard:
CF/Kevlar Rear Valence: 5lbs $1000
CF Decklid: 10lbs $5000ish
CF Roof: 25lbs $25lbs
PCCB: 200lbs (equivalent) $14,000 (if purchased after order)
Total equivalent weight savings: 445lbs $20500 = $45/pound
Interesting Conclusions
Total actual weight savings:210lbs
Previous car weight: 3500lbs. New actual weight: 3300lbs Equivalent weight: 3055lbs
Car HP=355hp Previous LB/HP= 9.9lbs/hp New act: 9.3lbs/hp Eqv: 8.6lbs/hp
Supercharger Hp= 500ish, Price: $11,000ish
997 SC LB/Hp= 7lbs/hp Price per Hp= $75/hp
Make your own conclusions here.
By the way this is a very very very very rough study...
Jason
Last edited by JEllis; 03-07-2009 at 11:45 AM.
#38
03-07-2009, 01:07 PM
Actually, I'm a bit surprised by your list - though, to be fair, I haven't run the experiment. My gut (and another anatomical part) tells me that the suspension bits (coilovers and bars) should precede even the wheels. Though I've heard that for handling, unsprung weight reductions yield an 'apparent' savings of 6-7 virtual pounds per actual pound which is a great thing, my sense (and I'm happy to be proven wrong, though this is a tough one to actually 'prove') is that the stock suspension bits are the 'weakest link' in the whole car.
I've also read (and you may have noted this, but it wasn't explicit) that if you're going to go the aftermarket wheel route, that you should move from a 19" (stock 'S') wheel to an 18" wheel with appropriate tire. You'll save even more weight, and improve handling and ride quality as well.
I'm not sure I'd go and do this (I'm not big on wheel replacements in general due to the cost, and I have to confess that I like the look of 19" wheels even acknowledging that they are suboptimal) but I've read numerous time that it's the way to go.
BTW, last time I was in Tokyo, good Kobe beef was more than $70.00/lb and that's a one-time expense! So maybe your process and formula isn't half bad
I've also read (and you may have noted this, but it wasn't explicit) that if you're going to go the aftermarket wheel route, that you should move from a 19" (stock 'S') wheel to an 18" wheel with appropriate tire. You'll save even more weight, and improve handling and ride quality as well.
I'm not sure I'd go and do this (I'm not big on wheel replacements in general due to the cost, and I have to confess that I like the look of 19" wheels even acknowledging that they are suboptimal) but I've read numerous time that it's the way to go.
BTW, last time I was in Tokyo, good Kobe beef was more than $70.00/lb and that's a one-time expense! So maybe your process and formula isn't half bad
Probably the best first mod for any sports car is a nice set of high quality light forged wheels. Not only is the visual impact positive but the performance advantages are undeniable. In the real world a very nice set of HRE's, BBS's, AMT's etc etc can reduce unsprung weight by close to 40lbs or equivalent to almost 120lbs sprung weight using the x4 method.
After that manual seats are a must but OE GT3 w/o airbags seats are best. Savings here can be close to 25lbs per seat or close to 50lbs total. Of course there is some sacrifice here. As for the rest of the interior remove the rear seats (997 C2/4/S) and get another 10lbs out of the car.
So far we have lost somewhere around 180lbs very easily (however not cheap). The performance increase from these modifications alone is UNDENIABLE and the weight reduction would be equivalent to basically removing the drivers weight from the equation. Just think how much performance is effected with a passenger.
From here there are still some easy weight reduction mods like aftermarket mufflers which can be 20lbs lighter than stock. 200CEL cats will also take another 5 or so LB's.
We are now over 200lbs lighter from what comes down to bolt on mods. You have ,however, sacrificed some comfort with the new seats and some increased sound from the sport mufflers and cats.
From here weight saving gets a little harder. But here are some easy ones...
Carbon Kevlar rear bumper from GMG, Synergy will save close to 10lbs (must have center exit exhaust though)
Carbon Kevlar rear decklid can save another 10lbs (Synergy, MAshaw)
CF roof can save 25lbs but is expensive at over 1.5K from GMG.
PCCB will save some serious unsprung and rotational mass. I would guess the weight reduction here is even better than forged wheels at close to 50lbs or more and equivalent to close to 200lbs sprung weight.
So here is my break down. Let me know what you think.
Easy:
Wheels: 40lbs Unsprung/120 sprung $5000
Seats: 50lbs total $2500
Rear Seat delete: 10lbs $0
Total equivalent wight savings: 180lbs $7500 =$42/pound
Medium:
Mufflers: 20lbs $1500
200 Cel Cats: 5lbs $1500
Total equivalent weight savings: 205lbs $10500 = $51/pound
Hard:
CF/Kevlar Rear Valence: 5lbs $1000
CF Decklid: 10lbs $5000ish
CF Roof: 25lbs $25lbs
PCCB: 200lbs (equivalent) $14,000 (if purchased after order)
Total equivalent weight savings: 445lbs $20500 = $45/pound
Interesting Conclusions
Total actual weight savings:210lbs
Previous car weight: 3500lbs. New actual weight: 3300lbs Equivalent weight: 3055lbs
Car HP=355hp Previous LB/HP= 9.9lbs/hp New act: 9.3lbs/hp Eqv: 8.6lbs/hp
Supercharger Hp= 500ish, Price: $11,000ish
997 SC LB/Hp= 7lbs/hp Price per Hp= $75/hp
Make your own conclusions here.
By the way this is a very very very very rough study...
Jason
After that manual seats are a must but OE GT3 w/o airbags seats are best. Savings here can be close to 25lbs per seat or close to 50lbs total. Of course there is some sacrifice here. As for the rest of the interior remove the rear seats (997 C2/4/S) and get another 10lbs out of the car.
So far we have lost somewhere around 180lbs very easily (however not cheap). The performance increase from these modifications alone is UNDENIABLE and the weight reduction would be equivalent to basically removing the drivers weight from the equation. Just think how much performance is effected with a passenger.
From here there are still some easy weight reduction mods like aftermarket mufflers which can be 20lbs lighter than stock. 200CEL cats will also take another 5 or so LB's.
We are now over 200lbs lighter from what comes down to bolt on mods. You have ,however, sacrificed some comfort with the new seats and some increased sound from the sport mufflers and cats.
From here weight saving gets a little harder. But here are some easy ones...
Carbon Kevlar rear bumper from GMG, Synergy will save close to 10lbs (must have center exit exhaust though)
Carbon Kevlar rear decklid can save another 10lbs (Synergy, MAshaw)
CF roof can save 25lbs but is expensive at over 1.5K from GMG.
PCCB will save some serious unsprung and rotational mass. I would guess the weight reduction here is even better than forged wheels at close to 50lbs or more and equivalent to close to 200lbs sprung weight.
So here is my break down. Let me know what you think.
Easy:
Wheels: 40lbs Unsprung/120 sprung $5000
Seats: 50lbs total $2500
Rear Seat delete: 10lbs $0
Total equivalent wight savings: 180lbs $7500 =$42/pound
Medium:
Mufflers: 20lbs $1500
200 Cel Cats: 5lbs $1500
Total equivalent weight savings: 205lbs $10500 = $51/pound
Hard:
CF/Kevlar Rear Valence: 5lbs $1000
CF Decklid: 10lbs $5000ish
CF Roof: 25lbs $25lbs
PCCB: 200lbs (equivalent) $14,000 (if purchased after order)
Total equivalent weight savings: 445lbs $20500 = $45/pound
Interesting Conclusions
Total actual weight savings:210lbs
Previous car weight: 3500lbs. New actual weight: 3300lbs Equivalent weight: 3055lbs
Car HP=355hp Previous LB/HP= 9.9lbs/hp New act: 9.3lbs/hp Eqv: 8.6lbs/hp
Supercharger Hp= 500ish, Price: $11,000ish
997 SC LB/Hp= 7lbs/hp Price per Hp= $75/hp
Make your own conclusions here.
By the way this is a very very very very rough study...
Jason
#39
03-07-2009, 01:22 PM
Actually, I'm a bit surprised by your list - though, to be fair, I haven't run the experiment. My gut (and another anatomical part) tells me that the suspension bits (coilovers and bars) should precede even the wheels. Though I've heard that for handling, unsprung weight reductions yield an 'apparent' savings of 6-7 virtual pounds per actual pound which is a great thing, my sense (and I'm happy to be proven wrong, though this is a tough one to actually 'prove') is that the stock suspension bits are the 'weakest link' in the whole car.
I've also read (and you may have noted this, but it wasn't explicit) that if you're going to go the aftermarket wheel route, that you should move from a 19" (stock 'S') wheel to an 18" wheel with appropriate tire. You'll save even more weight, and improve handling and ride quality as well.
I'm not sure I'd go and do this (I'm not big on wheel replacements in general due to the cost, and I have to confess that I like the look of 19" wheels even acknowledging that they are suboptimal) but I've read numerous time that it's the way to go.
BTW, last time I was in Tokyo, good Kobe beef was more than $70.00/lb and that's a one-time expense! So maybe your process and formula isn't half bad
I've also read (and you may have noted this, but it wasn't explicit) that if you're going to go the aftermarket wheel route, that you should move from a 19" (stock 'S') wheel to an 18" wheel with appropriate tire. You'll save even more weight, and improve handling and ride quality as well.
I'm not sure I'd go and do this (I'm not big on wheel replacements in general due to the cost, and I have to confess that I like the look of 19" wheels even acknowledging that they are suboptimal) but I've read numerous time that it's the way to go.
BTW, last time I was in Tokyo, good Kobe beef was more than $70.00/lb and that's a one-time expense! So maybe your process and formula isn't half bad
Jason
#40
03-07-2009, 02:53 PM
I guess you're right. Suspension mods are first from a personal value perspective, but not from a (speed) performance perspective. But in that vein I would not use the unsprung weight multipliers in your metrics. If it's speed-related performance analysis (0-60 et al), then a pound is a pound, no matter what end of an axle or hub it's on.
I was tempted to put suspension into my list for weight savings but decided not to. I think wheels are the best first mod, not only are they probably the most expensive (unless you go FI or do something else crazy) but the performance benefits are undeniable (suspension mods always have give and takes)....
Jason
Jason
#41
03-07-2009, 03:55 PM
Probably the best first mod for any sports car is a nice set of high quality light forged wheels. Not only is the visual impact positive but the performance advantages are undeniable. In the real world a very nice set of HRE's, BBS's, AMT's etc etc can reduce unsprung weight by close to 40lbs or equivalent to almost 120lbs sprung weight using the x4 method.
After that manual seats are a must but OE GT3 w/o airbags seats are best. Savings here can be close to 25lbs per seat or close to 50lbs total. Of course there is some sacrifice here. As for the rest of the interior remove the rear seats (997 C2/4/S) and get another 10lbs out of the car.
So far we have lost somewhere around 180lbs very easily (however not cheap). The performance increase from these modifications alone is UNDENIABLE and the weight reduction would be equivalent to basically removing the drivers weight from the equation. Just think how much performance is effected with a passenger.
From here there are still some easy weight reduction mods like aftermarket mufflers which can be 20lbs lighter than stock. 200CEL cats will also take another 5 or so LB's.
We are now over 200lbs lighter from what comes down to bolt on mods. You have ,however, sacrificed some comfort with the new seats and some increased sound from the sport mufflers and cats.
From here weight saving gets a little harder. But here are some easy ones...
Carbon Kevlar rear bumper from GMG, Synergy will save close to 10lbs (must have center exit exhaust though)
Carbon Kevlar rear decklid can save another 10lbs (Synergy, MAshaw)
CF roof can save 25lbs but is expensive at over 1.5K from GMG.
PCCB will save some serious unsprung and rotational mass. I would guess the weight reduction here is even better than forged wheels at close to 50lbs or more and equivalent to close to 200lbs sprung weight.
So here is my break down. Let me know what you think.
Easy:
Wheels: 40lbs Unsprung/120 sprung $5000
Seats: 50lbs total $2500
Rear Seat delete: 10lbs $0
Total equivalent wight savings: 180lbs $7500 =$42/pound
Medium:
Mufflers: 20lbs $1500
200 Cel Cats: 5lbs $1500
Total equivalent weight savings: 205lbs $10500 = $51/pound
Hard:
CF/Kevlar Rear Valence: 5lbs $1000
CF Decklid: 10lbs $5000ish
CF Roof: 25lbs $25lbs
PCCB: 200lbs (equivalent) $14,000 (if purchased after order)
Total equivalent weight savings: 445lbs $20500 = $45/pound
Interesting Conclusions
Total actual weight savings:210lbs
Previous car weight: 3500lbs. New actual weight: 3300lbs Equivalent weight: 3055lbs
Car HP=355hp Previous LB/HP= 9.9lbs/hp New act: 9.3lbs/hp Eqv: 8.6lbs/hp
Supercharger Hp= 500ish, Price: $11,000ish
997 SC LB/Hp= 7lbs/hp Price per Hp= $75/hp
Make your own conclusions here.
By the way this is a very very very very rough study...
Jason
After that manual seats are a must but OE GT3 w/o airbags seats are best. Savings here can be close to 25lbs per seat or close to 50lbs total. Of course there is some sacrifice here. As for the rest of the interior remove the rear seats (997 C2/4/S) and get another 10lbs out of the car.
So far we have lost somewhere around 180lbs very easily (however not cheap). The performance increase from these modifications alone is UNDENIABLE and the weight reduction would be equivalent to basically removing the drivers weight from the equation. Just think how much performance is effected with a passenger.
From here there are still some easy weight reduction mods like aftermarket mufflers which can be 20lbs lighter than stock. 200CEL cats will also take another 5 or so LB's.
We are now over 200lbs lighter from what comes down to bolt on mods. You have ,however, sacrificed some comfort with the new seats and some increased sound from the sport mufflers and cats.
From here weight saving gets a little harder. But here are some easy ones...
Carbon Kevlar rear bumper from GMG, Synergy will save close to 10lbs (must have center exit exhaust though)
Carbon Kevlar rear decklid can save another 10lbs (Synergy, MAshaw)
CF roof can save 25lbs but is expensive at over 1.5K from GMG.
PCCB will save some serious unsprung and rotational mass. I would guess the weight reduction here is even better than forged wheels at close to 50lbs or more and equivalent to close to 200lbs sprung weight.
So here is my break down. Let me know what you think.
Easy:
Wheels: 40lbs Unsprung/120 sprung $5000
Seats: 50lbs total $2500
Rear Seat delete: 10lbs $0
Total equivalent wight savings: 180lbs $7500 =$42/pound
Medium:
Mufflers: 20lbs $1500
200 Cel Cats: 5lbs $1500
Total equivalent weight savings: 205lbs $10500 = $51/pound
Hard:
CF/Kevlar Rear Valence: 5lbs $1000
CF Decklid: 10lbs $5000ish
CF Roof: 25lbs $25lbs
PCCB: 200lbs (equivalent) $14,000 (if purchased after order)
Total equivalent weight savings: 445lbs $20500 = $45/pound
Interesting Conclusions
Total actual weight savings:210lbs
Previous car weight: 3500lbs. New actual weight: 3300lbs Equivalent weight: 3055lbs
Car HP=355hp Previous LB/HP= 9.9lbs/hp New act: 9.3lbs/hp Eqv: 8.6lbs/hp
Supercharger Hp= 500ish, Price: $11,000ish
997 SC LB/Hp= 7lbs/hp Price per Hp= $75/hp
Make your own conclusions here.
By the way this is a very very very very rough study...
Jason
#42
03-08-2009, 06:28 PM
Try this site. Fill in weight, hp, mph, or elapsed time to see calculated results, not guesses.
http://www.turbofast.com.au/Drag.html
http://www.turbofast.com.au/Drag.html
#43
12-27-2010, 10:22 AM
Not to be a smart ***, but it's easier to think 1 to 10. Most people don't shed hundreds of pounds.
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