Yeah, another I want a 911 thread

I’ve been scouting this board and rennlist for a while now and there’s a ton of good info. I’m hoping you guys can help me with some research, so I too can join the club. I’m coming from M3’s, and don’t know all the P-car details yet. I know I want a 997 and would like to get a deal done in the next two weeks.

ALL I know is that I want a 997
I have driven all the versions and know that I would be happy with anything from a C2S up (no targa, no cab). As many posters have said, they all have a different character, but all are great cars.

I've been reading all the posts regarding pricing in the last few weeks and it's getting very confusing as to what a realistic price is. Even in one thread, you will see people with very different prices- I understand regional differences, but I'm willing to travel if it's worth it.

It will be a DD, and for track days.

I’m trying to get a sense of 1) what options I need 2) what are realistic prices to offer dealers.

I know on new cars there is some cash back
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ferrerid=72491

This poster is looking for a C2S and is advised if he is going to make GT3 type mods, might as well get a GT3 - there are great deals. My question is what does that mean in actual $$? That seems like a big leap.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...eferrerid=7249


Another question is 997.1 vs 997.2, I’ve read a ton of posts (esp IMS), the most recent below, where many are saying the 997.1 is just reliable. Is it worth the 997.2 for the new engine I plan on keeping long term.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ferrerid=72491


http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ferrerid=72491


Options

Sport Chrono / PAS, i think I get this now

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ferrerid=72491

Don’t really need to look for a car with sport chrono, PASM sounds like a definite

Nav from what I understand is an easy “activation” in the 997.1 models, not so easy 997.2

So I’m trying to get an idea of what is realistic for these cars. what are they missing. what can I get into?

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...&cardist=58%3E

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false


http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false


http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false


http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false

Where should I be starting for these kinds of models and what options are must haves? The listed prices are obviously off, But I think they are WAY off. I want to get this done within the next few weeks, so, I don't want to make an unrealistic offer, but I also want to take advantage if the current situation. If it's a keeper, Should I just use the cash back to swing a deal on a new '09


Sorry for the long post, but it might help others in the same position to get an idea of what prices are really doing instead of reading a post that says "you should just get a 2008 TT, the deals are incredible" "Porsche sales are in the tank"

Thaks for any help guys.

 

Direct Injection engines do not have gas passing over the intake values(which cleans them) so these cars will all be going in for major engine work every few years once they are on the road for a while. Porsche didn't provision for this issue because like all other companies racing towards DI, they are dummy heads.

Stick with the port injection motors. (997.1)


If you don't have a clue what I am talking about, just google "direct injection carbon build-up"

 

When does the switch happen from 997.1 to 997.2?

 

997.2 started with the 2009 model year, so they have been out for about one year now.

 

is this in any way related to soot on the exhaust tips and oil consumption?

 

I don't believe so.

The reason that what I am describing is happening is because, deep breathe... the gas doesn't pass over the intake valves on Direct Injection motors. Gas cleans the valves. Without that, blow-by(oil) is getting into the cylinders and being recycled past the valves. The dry(and super heated) valves attract the oil and fuel particulates that haven't/couldn't be burned off and you get a film on the valves. The film turns to muck. that muck hardens. Then another layer of film. etc etc etc.

Soon, the valves look like this:


That is a shot taken of a FSI 4.2L V8 that goes in the RS4/R8 after 9000 miles.

The car was dyno'd before cleaning that up and after cleaning it up. 24HP difference. Just looks like wet goo but it's BAKED. Took about 45 minutes per valve to clean up. How much does your shop charge pre hour?

Porsche....Audi(VW)... Chevy, etc... They are all trying to figure out a way around it. They know it's a problem. Heck, Volkwagen AG wrote a 14 page patent paper talking about how these engines have a severe issue causing efficiencey issues and performance problems. http://www.mycar.net/volkswagen/6866031.html

They are playing with different ideas to rectify it. Nothing yet.

Audi came up with a crazy-complicated 3 stage "catch can" if you will, to keep this from happening. But it's too much to catch it all. I have studied the models and materials used from VW, Audi, and Porsche. They are all very similar.. This is going to a be a problem engine.

 

ahmadof-
What your post reveals is that you are reading a lot of opinions and they are for the most part valid on an individual level . However you have to decide what car fits best with your driving needs .

You list that it's a daily driver .
You want some track ability.
You want some affordability .

It sounds like you are either describing a 997S or a 997tt used . Affordability goes to the 997S . I would pick the 09 because the discounts are that good . You don't have to mod it like a Gt3 to have fun . In fact you could even enjoy it stock .

Now here my opinion --
1) A Turbo would have to be modified and that can add up fast. Plus unless its a straight line track the 2 wheel drive cars are fun.
2) a gt3 in Washington Dc ? (hey that rhymed) . It's cold , it snows , are you ready to take this to the movies.supermarket, and mall ?
3) adding Gt3 parts -- You could and you might but you don;t have to . That's a price plus.
4) Options -first figure out the car before dwelling on options.
5) Price -the 09 discounts make this car the dollar for dollar value .

Note -- Buying a car often coincides with better pricing at the end of the month . If you can't decide the car in the next two days you may wait until the end of sept.

Good luck.

 

So generally speaking new 997.2 engine has same exact possible issue, you`re saying?

It is quite extraordinary to have that much build-up on valves for 9K miles, I looked a photo and thought it was a 70K miles old engine...

 

I honestly do not get how can people drive modded cars on the street after they lower `em, then reduce front clearance even more with aftermarket bumpers and front lips above it.

On my stock 997 I had to re-learn all my usual routes to avoid several spots with high street bumps, I still cannot get into my in-laws driveway as it is too steep and I scratch my front heavily.

If my front bumper would sit as GT3 does or those TechArt things that are as high from a ground as Marlboro pack - I would not be able to drive it around at all.

 

I have a 2008 BMW 535 with direct injection and I can tell you that my car is running great at 30,000 miles. I believe the DI engines could have such problems but some non-DI engines have had this problem ( Toyota has been famous for this).

Perhaps it is not as big a problem as we might think? What about Diesel engines? They all have DI engines and I have not heard of ( or experienced) this problem. I had two Rabbit Diesels in the 1970s and one Passat TDI when I lived in Germany and never had a problem with these engines.

I am sure some folks are having problems but perhaps there are some driving condtions that might magnify the problem.....short trips?...long oil change intervals? never reving the engine up? certain climates?

 

Audi has had turbo charged and NA direct injection engines out for over 4 years now, and I know of several with 100k+ miles already. I have yet to come across an issue of what you're describing, but it seems feasible in theory.

You do have to admit that all of these "theories" that people have are somewhat comical. Everything from debates on how often to change your oil, to how to break in a car, how to warm up and cool down the engine, etc. I think what people, including myself, fail to realize often is that, yes, these things DO make a difference, however, the issues that they can cause will most likely arise years after the car has been scrapped and turned into a soda can. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the speech on how you have to allow a Ferrari engine to full cool and heat (aka you have to leave it on for a certain amount of time, let it cool for a certain amount, etc) for fear of an engine block cracking, and yet every driver I know does a 0-60 run directly off the lot. Know how many cracked Ferrari engine blocks I've seen? None.

 

I hope this is not true

 

I would say that the engine is too new to say 100%, but I studied the engineering of their cleanup system and it's not good enough(as proven by other manufacturers with extremely similar setups)

If a port injected car has carbon issues, that's a completely different subject. I haven't looked into BMW's system for DI engines but I can imagine that since your cars design is a few years old, they too haven't a system capable of handling the issue. You perceive that your BMW is running tiptop. If you took the top manifold off it will most likely tell a different story. Dynoing your car after break in, and then again at it's current mileage will tell a similar story. You are numb to the effects if has on your car because the build up is gradual. It's not as if you park your car at night in tiptop shape and over night the carbon gremlins come out and dryhump your valves. Then you'd feel the difference.

The issue has been proven to be detrimental to engine performance on cars with frequent oil changes, hard driving, light driving, long driving, etc. No static information is available to shine light on any cause other than engineering flaw.

Diesel engines are too different to petrol engines to be comparible. Won't type all of that up.

Yes, for a few years now, Audi/VW have had the 2.0L FSI motor in production. Go to google and type into "2.0L fsi carbon build up" Read how many 100's if not 1000's of stories are out there. Speak to a VW service desk or two. These are not theories... these are real issues. The engine you mention is probably the hardest hit with this issue. Plenty of people don't want to believe it, you may be in that boat, ok. There was a gentleman on the RS4 forum's that didn't believe it, he gave the same song and denial dance I'm seeing here. Finally after everyone dumped enough pictures and documentation in his face, he believed. Took his car in to find it was clogged up nicely. Got the car back running strong and efficient again, for now.

The documentation, diagrams and schematics are out there to show you everything I know. Just have to want to know. Instead of sticking your collective heads in the sand on this, you should be educating yourself, asking your service shop educated questions, contacting the manufacturer with your concerns.

 

Well, comical or not but to have such amount of build-up on a valve that goes up to 7300 RPM is really not OK. Life will show, of course, how those 997.2 engines will go. I was just surprised to see that much carbon on 9K miles old engine, that`s all.

 

One more thing. I am not of the Porsche engineering department that designed this engine... there very well could be something I overlooked that will rectify this mess. I am basing everything I am saying about the Porsche DI engine on what I have seen in the information I'm allowed to see, and on the track record of the other German makers in the last 3-4 years.

I AM an engineer, for whatever that is worth. I just can't say for whom.