IMS Failures......
#46
09-04-2009, 01:24 PM
M96
Good advice Jason.
I was off on my Excellence reference. The main M96 article is in the December 2008 issue but the percentage estimate statement is in the May 2009 issue, Tech Notes, beginning on p. 16. On p. 24, mid-column, the Editor states:
“When the Boxster and 996 were relatively new cars and the M96’s problems were not yet understood, rumors suggested that up to 50 percent of the cars were going to experience failure. Porsche addressed the problems and, today, I am hearing the number of cars that have had or will have a problem is closer to 20 percent, or one in five.”
Given the credibility of the source, this was a shocking statement for somebody (me) looking to buy a 2002 996. After some considerable research, I am surprised an engineering focused company like Porsche has failed to publically address these issues and to provide more detailed information to owners. In some of the early M96 warranty replacement, owners received a new engine identical to the failed one, sort of a Porsche version of Clint Eastwood’s old line “….do you feel lucky?” It should be noted the Flat 6 Innovations has a belief the IMS failure rate could be overstated with some failures possibly due to cam tensioners.
As an aside, a one-year subscription to Bimmer was enough to convince me not to go down that path. Those Editors regularly make statements about the cost and difficulty of maintaining BMW’s, especially M’s out of warranty, and there are a multitude of 50k miles M3’s on the market. I uncertain if the warnings are true or if it is just a ploy to get people to trade them in on new ones. At any rate, I started focusing on 996’s for their quality, reliability…then the December article came out and froze me in place.
I hear turbos are extremely reliable from that era. They are the only Porsches Leffingwell* regularly rates 5 out of 5 for reliability.
GCH
*Porsche 911 Buyers Guide, 2nd Edition.
I was off on my Excellence reference. The main M96 article is in the December 2008 issue but the percentage estimate statement is in the May 2009 issue, Tech Notes, beginning on p. 16. On p. 24, mid-column, the Editor states:
“When the Boxster and 996 were relatively new cars and the M96’s problems were not yet understood, rumors suggested that up to 50 percent of the cars were going to experience failure. Porsche addressed the problems and, today, I am hearing the number of cars that have had or will have a problem is closer to 20 percent, or one in five.”
Given the credibility of the source, this was a shocking statement for somebody (me) looking to buy a 2002 996. After some considerable research, I am surprised an engineering focused company like Porsche has failed to publically address these issues and to provide more detailed information to owners. In some of the early M96 warranty replacement, owners received a new engine identical to the failed one, sort of a Porsche version of Clint Eastwood’s old line “….do you feel lucky?” It should be noted the Flat 6 Innovations has a belief the IMS failure rate could be overstated with some failures possibly due to cam tensioners.
As an aside, a one-year subscription to Bimmer was enough to convince me not to go down that path. Those Editors regularly make statements about the cost and difficulty of maintaining BMW’s, especially M’s out of warranty, and there are a multitude of 50k miles M3’s on the market. I uncertain if the warnings are true or if it is just a ploy to get people to trade them in on new ones. At any rate, I started focusing on 996’s for their quality, reliability…then the December article came out and froze me in place.
I hear turbos are extremely reliable from that era. They are the only Porsches Leffingwell* regularly rates 5 out of 5 for reliability.
GCH
*Porsche 911 Buyers Guide, 2nd Edition.
#47
09-04-2009, 04:42 PM
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Thanks for all the info, Jason. Good of you to also point out that the data Excellence cited is sourced from the company that has produced the fixes. Like you, I've read that article and do not remember it ever suggesting the failure rate is as high as 20%. Also as you've stated, the article's data set is based on the M96 2.5L and 2.7L engine. Though the early 05's 997 engines share the same IMS part, it's not a clear indicator that the failure rate due to this particular component should be assumed to be the same as the M96.
The bottom line is that there are no clear survey and data set that may allow us to quantify the probability for early 05' 997 owners to encounter this issue. It goes without saying that there are simply not enough high mileage 06-08 out on the street to suggest that Porsche has solved the problem.
The bizarre thing is that in another Excellence article I've recently read where they compared the 996 GT3 and the 997 GT3, the author recommended the 996. Among the reasons for his recommendation, one of which is that he cited the 996 GT3's RMS is less likely to fail than the 997 GT3. This is an issue that you'd think Porsche has put to bed, certainly for the 997 GT3 engine...but in this case, it sounds like it has regressed!
I agree with you, the 05' owners should know where potential issues may lie. However, true failure rates is probably much less than what folks have led on. There does not appear to be an absolute "bullet proof" model/year, etc. As you've wisely stated, "drive the pants off it"!
The bottom line is that there are no clear survey and data set that may allow us to quantify the probability for early 05' 997 owners to encounter this issue. It goes without saying that there are simply not enough high mileage 06-08 out on the street to suggest that Porsche has solved the problem.
The bizarre thing is that in another Excellence article I've recently read where they compared the 996 GT3 and the 997 GT3, the author recommended the 996. Among the reasons for his recommendation, one of which is that he cited the 996 GT3's RMS is less likely to fail than the 997 GT3. This is an issue that you'd think Porsche has put to bed, certainly for the 997 GT3 engine...but in this case, it sounds like it has regressed!
I agree with you, the 05' owners should know where potential issues may lie. However, true failure rates is probably much less than what folks have led on. There does not appear to be an absolute "bullet proof" model/year, etc. As you've wisely stated, "drive the pants off it"!
Awesome post my man! Well stated and thanks!!!!
Jason
Good advice Jason.
I was off on my Excellence reference. The main M96 article is in the December 2008 issue but the percentage estimate statement is in the May 2009 issue, Tech Notes, beginning on p. 16. On p. 24, mid-column, the Editor states:
“When the Boxster and 996 were relatively new cars and the M96’s problems were not yet understood, rumors suggested that up to 50 percent of the cars were going to experience failure. Porsche addressed the problems and, today, I am hearing the number of cars that have had or will have a problem is closer to 20 percent, or one in five.”
Given the credibility of the source, this was a shocking statement for somebody (me) looking to buy a 2002 996. After some considerable research, I am surprised an engineering focused company like Porsche has failed to publically address these issues and to provide more detailed information to owners. In some of the early M96 warranty replacement, owners received a new engine identical to the failed one, sort of a Porsche version of Clint Eastwood’s old line “….do you feel lucky?” It should be noted the Flat 6 Innovations has a belief the IMS failure rate could be overstated with some failures possibly due to cam tensioners.
As an aside, a one-year subscription to Bimmer was enough to convince me not to go down that path. Those Editors regularly make statements about the cost and difficulty of maintaining BMW’s, especially M’s out of warranty, and there are a multitude of 50k miles M3’s on the market. I uncertain if the warnings are true or if it is just a ploy to get people to trade them in on new ones. At any rate, I started focusing on 996’s for their quality, reliability…then the December article came out and froze me in place.
I hear turbos are extremely reliable from that era. They are the only Porsches Leffingwell* regularly rates 5 out of 5 for reliability.
GCH
*Porsche 911 Buyers Guide, 2nd Edition.
I was off on my Excellence reference. The main M96 article is in the December 2008 issue but the percentage estimate statement is in the May 2009 issue, Tech Notes, beginning on p. 16. On p. 24, mid-column, the Editor states:
“When the Boxster and 996 were relatively new cars and the M96’s problems were not yet understood, rumors suggested that up to 50 percent of the cars were going to experience failure. Porsche addressed the problems and, today, I am hearing the number of cars that have had or will have a problem is closer to 20 percent, or one in five.”
Given the credibility of the source, this was a shocking statement for somebody (me) looking to buy a 2002 996. After some considerable research, I am surprised an engineering focused company like Porsche has failed to publically address these issues and to provide more detailed information to owners. In some of the early M96 warranty replacement, owners received a new engine identical to the failed one, sort of a Porsche version of Clint Eastwood’s old line “….do you feel lucky?” It should be noted the Flat 6 Innovations has a belief the IMS failure rate could be overstated with some failures possibly due to cam tensioners.
As an aside, a one-year subscription to Bimmer was enough to convince me not to go down that path. Those Editors regularly make statements about the cost and difficulty of maintaining BMW’s, especially M’s out of warranty, and there are a multitude of 50k miles M3’s on the market. I uncertain if the warnings are true or if it is just a ploy to get people to trade them in on new ones. At any rate, I started focusing on 996’s for their quality, reliability…then the December article came out and froze me in place.
I hear turbos are extremely reliable from that era. They are the only Porsches Leffingwell* regularly rates 5 out of 5 for reliability.
GCH
*Porsche 911 Buyers Guide, 2nd Edition.
Hahaha and this is what I am talking about. You look at M's but get turned off by rumors and then look at 996's but get turned off by their issues. Then you look at 996TT's. I hate to break this to you but there are some expensive issues the 996TT's have. I too looked at TT's but they have some interesting tranny issues you should look into. If your 996TT develops them your only option is a new transmission..... not cheap in a 996TT. Another issue that only plagues a low percentage though. I believe the worst years for these issues are 2001 and 2002 with some fixes put into place by Porsche for the MY03 and later TT's. But I am sure a TT guy can chime in here.
But heres my point, any car has its issues. Especially sports cars. However, it appears that "our" issues get amplified through magazines and chat forums that tend to over amplify the issue.
For example, a random buyer gets on this forum and starts asking around about 05 997S's. He gets lots of replies with guys saying, dont trust an 05 because their IMS fails. Then he buys an 06 instead. The next month another guy gets on here looking for info on 997's. He does a search and all he finds is posts about IMS failures in MY05 997's.... better avoid those he thinks. And, it goes on and on. And yet there are lots of guys on this forum with MY05 cars that dont have issues and continue to be fine.
I always get a little annoyed when someone tells me how much I must spend on maintaining my old M3. When in reality I spend about nothing.
Also, Excellence, I have noticed, tends to contradict itself from time to time. An example, in the same year I read the article about Flat 6 Innovations and then another article about using the 996 as a DD. The article even highlighted this older lady that had over 100K miles on hers. Or maybe I am thinking of GTPorsche, I am confusing myself now. Oh well, you get my point.
Jason
Last edited by JEllis; 09-04-2009 at 04:45 PM.
#48
12-10-2009, 03:34 PM
Can somebody help me out with this? I've got an '05 997S w/ 68k miles, had an RMS leak fixed about 10k ago. The placard on my door shows 6/05 in the top right corner. Would this date have fallen before the improved IMS?
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