Has anyone done a PCCB upgrade?
#31
11-16-2009, 09:13 AM
To summarize: Suncoast has said that the ABS pump is the same in a Steel brake "S" car as it is in a PCCB "S" car.
This is a package that is sold by Porsche as a retrofit in their Tequipment catalogue. This is not a kit put together by Suncoast.
Thanks to Ric from Suncoast as well as all those that helped with their questions and thoughts.
This is a package that is sold by Porsche as a retrofit in their Tequipment catalogue. This is not a kit put together by Suncoast.
Thanks to Ric from Suncoast as well as all those that helped with their questions and thoughts.
#32
11-16-2009, 12:20 PM
[quote=JEllis;2619932]
Nobody is saying BBK's do not help to slow a car faster. But in terms of cause and effect HP and braking power are unrelated.
Your comment would have been more applicable if you had said, I race on the track and I like to be able to brake deep into corners so I need a BBK. Or, I tend to drive around at 100mph everywhere I go which is generally unsafe but a BBK gives me comfort that I can stop much faster than traffic even though I am going much faster.
Your 700HP comment was kinda like a sky diver saying, "I am a heavier guy so I need a reliable parachute when I jump from an airplane".....
Jason
This is not what I am saying . Hp and speed are not related to braking in the manner you state that ia m describing . I agree with you . What I am saying is that the OEM brakes are made by Brembo . Brembo is a global supplier of 25+ oem brands of cars . The upgrade is a more potent version , a larger brake , better quality components and geared towards more efficient stopping ability.
As for gravity and weight it's constant but the equipment useed to slow it down is not all the same. On the Turbo a larher brake is used with better stopping ability and can benefit a car at this level.
Hp comes into play because the car can keep getting to high speed seconds faster than stock car repeatedly . I even stated that on a one run slow down or with enough room even stock overheated brakes will eventually slow the car . But if one is accelerating up and down like in stop and go traffic a better quality brake is needed for a car that hit these speeds faster repeatedly and often.
Nobody is saying BBK's do not help to slow a car faster. But in terms of cause and effect HP and braking power are unrelated.
Your comment would have been more applicable if you had said, I race on the track and I like to be able to brake deep into corners so I need a BBK. Or, I tend to drive around at 100mph everywhere I go which is generally unsafe but a BBK gives me comfort that I can stop much faster than traffic even though I am going much faster.
Your 700HP comment was kinda like a sky diver saying, "I am a heavier guy so I need a reliable parachute when I jump from an airplane".....
Jason
As for gravity and weight it's constant but the equipment useed to slow it down is not all the same. On the Turbo a larher brake is used with better stopping ability and can benefit a car at this level.
Hp comes into play because the car can keep getting to high speed seconds faster than stock car repeatedly . I even stated that on a one run slow down or with enough room even stock overheated brakes will eventually slow the car . But if one is accelerating up and down like in stop and go traffic a better quality brake is needed for a car that hit these speeds faster repeatedly and often.
Last edited by yrralis1; 11-16-2009 at 12:35 PM.
#33
11-16-2009, 12:24 PM
PCCB Versus Steel
I burned up the front PCCB rotors on my '03 X-50 (3,700 lbs including driver) at 20K miles and had a local machinist duplicate them in steel, as the local Porsche dealer wanted $4,400/copy for replacements. I used the same hats and the stopping ability with the steel cup rotors are superior to that of the PCCB rotors. Granted they weigh almost twice as much, but with well over 550 Hp, this is imperceptible. The car now has 35K miles on it and I am still using the original rear PCCB rotors with these. I realize the Generation I rotors had problems, but that was with the plating process of the ceramic coating onto the rotor, it’s still the same material on the Gen II, only the ceramic material is not “pulling” out as with the Gen I. My point is this: with the ceramic rotors, one must use the specific pad designated for them; with steel, I am using the more aggressive Pagid Yellow pads with significantly greater stopping ability, another 70 feet deeper into turn #2 at Pacific Raceway. It's a thrill to see others in my mirror use my brake lights a guide for their braking. They spend a most of time in the turn regaining control of their vehicle. Michael
#35
11-16-2009, 01:07 PM
[quote=yrralis1;2620171]
Hp comes into play because the car can keep getting to high speed seconds faster than stock car repeatedly . I even stated that on a one run slow down or with enough room even stock overheated brakes will eventually slow the car . But if one is accelerating up and down like in stop and go traffic a better quality brake is needed for a car that hit these speeds faster repeatedly and often.
HP is not the issue, you're just looking for a better brake system. If you're at 150MPH, doesnt matter how much HP you have when you decide to stop. It could have taken you 1 hour to accelerate to that speed. Repeated stops is also not a function of HP. Its weight and how quickly and often you'd like to stop - without fade or loss of braking performance. Granted higher performance cars normally have better brake systems as they normally are driven faster and in a sportier fashion. 
Hp comes into play because the car can keep getting to high speed seconds faster than stock car repeatedly . I even stated that on a one run slow down or with enough room even stock overheated brakes will eventually slow the car . But if one is accelerating up and down like in stop and go traffic a better quality brake is needed for a car that hit these speeds faster repeatedly and often.
#36
11-16-2009, 01:31 PM
PCCB V. Steel
I've been with Kitch only twice. I instruct for Porsche, BMW,Audi and other clubs at PR.
#37
11-16-2009, 01:53 PM
[quote=yrralis1;2620171]
This is not what I am saying . Hp and speed are not related to braking in the manner you state that ia m describing . I agree with you . What I am saying is that the OEM brakes are made by Brembo . Brembo is a global supplier of 25+ oem brands of cars . The upgrade is a more potent version , a larger brake , better quality components and geared towards more efficient stopping ability.
As for gravity and weight it's constant but the equipment useed to slow it down is not all the same. On the Turbo a larher brake is used with better stopping ability and can benefit a car at this level.
Hp comes into play because the car can keep getting to high speed seconds faster than stock car repeatedly . I even stated that on a one run slow down or with enough room even stock overheated brakes will eventually slow the car . But if one is accelerating up and down like in stop and go traffic a better quality brake is needed for a car that hit these speeds faster repeatedly and often.
Okay I am not going to beat the horse anymore. Hp has nothing to do with braking. Accelerating and stopping in stop and go traffic is going to effect our cars almost equally.
The old addage that one should not increase speed and HP without also increasing braking capablity is derived from two things.
1) That if you drive a fast car it is assumed you would want to drive faster than what is considered normal requireing one to have better brakes than the cars that make up normal traffic. This is based on driving style and I would recommend the same thing for Civic drivers with lead feet.
2) That better brakes and better tires are two of the best things you can do to improve a cars overall track performance. This is a "rule of thumb" that has leaked over to the tuning world.
The simple fact is that with a normal driving style one does not require a BBK regardless of HP. A 700HP TT and a 500HP TT will exert the same amount of load on the brakes regardless the speed at which the brakes were applied. Two TT's, one with 700HP, and one with 500HP, would wear out their brakes the same when conducting 0-60-0 drills. The 700HP TT would just get to 60 slightly faster.
Since TT's are generally all the same weight the need for stronger brakes may arise in a track like situation when a 700HP TT might be carrying more speed at the end of a straight. The problem here being that a 700HP car and 400HP car on most courses are going to have similar straigt away speeds because the straights are simply not long enough for the 700HP to be much of an advantage. Hence why you see C2S's passing 997TT's on courses like Streets of Willow or why GMG WC GT3's are faster around Big Willow than GMG WC 997TT's.
Jason
This is not what I am saying . Hp and speed are not related to braking in the manner you state that ia m describing . I agree with you . What I am saying is that the OEM brakes are made by Brembo . Brembo is a global supplier of 25+ oem brands of cars . The upgrade is a more potent version , a larger brake , better quality components and geared towards more efficient stopping ability.
As for gravity and weight it's constant but the equipment useed to slow it down is not all the same. On the Turbo a larher brake is used with better stopping ability and can benefit a car at this level.
Hp comes into play because the car can keep getting to high speed seconds faster than stock car repeatedly . I even stated that on a one run slow down or with enough room even stock overheated brakes will eventually slow the car . But if one is accelerating up and down like in stop and go traffic a better quality brake is needed for a car that hit these speeds faster repeatedly and often.
The old addage that one should not increase speed and HP without also increasing braking capablity is derived from two things.
1) That if you drive a fast car it is assumed you would want to drive faster than what is considered normal requireing one to have better brakes than the cars that make up normal traffic. This is based on driving style and I would recommend the same thing for Civic drivers with lead feet.
2) That better brakes and better tires are two of the best things you can do to improve a cars overall track performance. This is a "rule of thumb" that has leaked over to the tuning world.
The simple fact is that with a normal driving style one does not require a BBK regardless of HP. A 700HP TT and a 500HP TT will exert the same amount of load on the brakes regardless the speed at which the brakes were applied. Two TT's, one with 700HP, and one with 500HP, would wear out their brakes the same when conducting 0-60-0 drills. The 700HP TT would just get to 60 slightly faster.
Since TT's are generally all the same weight the need for stronger brakes may arise in a track like situation when a 700HP TT might be carrying more speed at the end of a straight. The problem here being that a 700HP car and 400HP car on most courses are going to have similar straigt away speeds because the straights are simply not long enough for the 700HP to be much of an advantage. Hence why you see C2S's passing 997TT's on courses like Streets of Willow or why GMG WC GT3's are faster around Big Willow than GMG WC 997TT's.
Jason
#38
11-16-2009, 01:55 PM
[quote=Rodsky;2620228]
HP is not the issue, you're just looking for a better brake system. If you're at 150MPH, doesnt matter how much HP you have when you decide to stop. It could have taken you 1 hour to accelerate to that speed. Repeated stops is also not a function of HP. Its weight and how quickly and often you'd like to stop - without fade or loss of braking performance. Granted higher performance cars normally have better brake systems as they normally are driven faster and in a sportier fashion.
What he said...
The horse is dead
Jason
HP is not the issue, you're just looking for a better brake system. If you're at 150MPH, doesnt matter how much HP you have when you decide to stop. It could have taken you 1 hour to accelerate to that speed. Repeated stops is also not a function of HP. Its weight and how quickly and often you'd like to stop - without fade or loss of braking performance. Granted higher performance cars normally have better brake systems as they normally are driven faster and in a sportier fashion.
The horse is dead
Jason
#39
11-16-2009, 02:01 PM
I do at least one PCA-PNWR day a year, last year I worked with Pat. Perhaps next season I will get you.
#40
11-16-2009, 02:05 PM
We are getting off the subject of PCCB here. Given two identical cars of equal weight where one has 100 Hp advantage, the higher Hp car will necessarily demand more from the brakes. If both cars are sprinting from one turn to another, the higher Hp car will go faster, thus placing a greater demand on his brakes. Let's move on to the original subject of PCCB versus steel…
#41
11-16-2009, 06:08 PM
[quote=Rodsky;2620228]
HP is not the issue, you're just looking for a better brake system. If you're at 150MPH, doesnt matter how much HP you have when you decide to stop. It could have taken you 1 hour to accelerate to that speed. Repeated stops is also not a function of HP. Its weight and how quickly and often you'd like to stop - without fade or loss of braking performance. Granted higher performance cars normally have better brake systems as they normally are driven faster and in a sportier fashion.
I must be speaking a different language because I never said that Hp has anything to do with braking . Indirectly Hp can accelerate a car to high speed quickly and repeatedly . Thus the brakes might be used more and a better quality brake is needed for that type of car .
I don't know how to be any clearer but it seems like the sentence bolded in red is exactly what I have been saying.
HP is not the issue, you're just looking for a better brake system. If you're at 150MPH, doesnt matter how much HP you have when you decide to stop. It could have taken you 1 hour to accelerate to that speed. Repeated stops is also not a function of HP. Its weight and how quickly and often you'd like to stop - without fade or loss of braking performance. Granted higher performance cars normally have better brake systems as they normally are driven faster and in a sportier fashion.
I don't know how to be any clearer but it seems like the sentence bolded in red is exactly what I have been saying.
Last edited by yrralis1; 11-16-2009 at 06:10 PM.
#42
11-16-2009, 06:42 PM
[quote=yrralis1;2618682]
I said the horse was dead but I was wrong....
Your entire statement is filled with HP to "Brake Power" related jargin. Stock steel brakes with stock HP and BBK with more HP etc etc.....
You should have just said, I drive my car fast and felt the stock brakes would not be acceptable.
Bottom line, a BBK would be as advantagous on any other 997 that is driven fast, driven at the track etc etc.... High HP is just not a quantifier for a need for bigger brakes.
You actually have to drive your car faster or harder (track or crazy street driving) to really NEED a BBK regardless of ponies... Thats it, its final, I dont see how this can be disputed.
Jason
[Nothing beats PCCBs! Ask the pro drivers (who coach on the side..they'll tell you!)./QUOTE]
On my 700 Hp Turbo I felt they would be unacceptable . The stock steel brakes worked great on stock Hp and even if the PCCB were better they were not designed to stop a 700 Hp car in thr manner that the BBK can do . With a car that can accelerate so fast it needs more than a stock designed brake to match its performance level and the PCCB were not the best choice . If they were --I would have only looked for a car with them on day one.
I must be speaking a different language because I never said that Hp has anything to do with braking . Indirectly Hp can accelerate a car to high speed quickly and repeatedly . Thus the brakes might be used more and a better quality brake is needed for that type of car .
On my 700 Hp Turbo I felt they would be unacceptable . The stock steel brakes worked great on stock Hp and even if the PCCB were better they were not designed to stop a 700 Hp car in thr manner that the BBK can do . With a car that can accelerate so fast it needs more than a stock designed brake to match its performance level and the PCCB were not the best choice . If they were --I would have only looked for a car with them on day one.
I must be speaking a different language because I never said that Hp has anything to do with braking . Indirectly Hp can accelerate a car to high speed quickly and repeatedly . Thus the brakes might be used more and a better quality brake is needed for that type of car .
Your entire statement is filled with HP to "Brake Power" related jargin. Stock steel brakes with stock HP and BBK with more HP etc etc.....
You should have just said, I drive my car fast and felt the stock brakes would not be acceptable.
Bottom line, a BBK would be as advantagous on any other 997 that is driven fast, driven at the track etc etc.... High HP is just not a quantifier for a need for bigger brakes.
You actually have to drive your car faster or harder (track or crazy street driving) to really NEED a BBK regardless of ponies... Thats it, its final, I dont see how this can be disputed.
Jason
#43
11-16-2009, 06:54 PM
Lots of interesting comments here. I've read tons of brake tests on lots of different cars. I've learned a couple of things.
Carbon ceramic brakes are definitely the wave of the future. All of the fastest cars in the world are or will be equipped with them or they are offerred as an option. That doesn't necessarily mean that the Porsche PCCB's are the best and there obviously were issues were earlier series that Porsche released. If they stop the same, they have incredible longevity, save a ton of sprung weight and have very little dust. Very appealing. Undoubtedly, the technology comes at a price, but I'm sure we'll see the trickle down in time.
My main point is that a lot of people over equip their cars with brakes. And the most interesting thing I've read is that stopping distances don't necessarily improve. You can go from a 330 mm rotor with a 2 pot caliper to a 350 mm rotor and a 6 pot caliper and have worse braking performance. Pads are a big factor and also brake balance from the master cylinder and how the brakes function with the stock ABS. (I've never heard of anyone adding a BBK and changing the stock ABS system.) Bigger rotors and calipers will usually get you one thing, less fade. But you really only see fade at the track. Heck, 997S brakes were used on the 996 turbo, after all. Anyway, if you have a BMW, the brakes are crap, easily into fade the moment you hit the track. Tough to find a good upgrade for the 997S, even if you go to the track. Most people track their 997S's and don't experience fade, AFAIK.
So, the PCCB's have a bunch of benefit, very little of it will be used on the street, except for less dust. I would have loved to find a used car with them because you get them for free almost. If I were to look for an upgrade, I wouldn't do it new, there is so much more that could be done to a 997 with $15k. But, if you have the money, buy 'em, put em on and love those yellow calipers every time you walk up to the car. I'd hunt for them used though. Good luck.
Carbon ceramic brakes are definitely the wave of the future. All of the fastest cars in the world are or will be equipped with them or they are offerred as an option. That doesn't necessarily mean that the Porsche PCCB's are the best and there obviously were issues were earlier series that Porsche released. If they stop the same, they have incredible longevity, save a ton of sprung weight and have very little dust. Very appealing. Undoubtedly, the technology comes at a price, but I'm sure we'll see the trickle down in time.
My main point is that a lot of people over equip their cars with brakes. And the most interesting thing I've read is that stopping distances don't necessarily improve. You can go from a 330 mm rotor with a 2 pot caliper to a 350 mm rotor and a 6 pot caliper and have worse braking performance. Pads are a big factor and also brake balance from the master cylinder and how the brakes function with the stock ABS. (I've never heard of anyone adding a BBK and changing the stock ABS system.) Bigger rotors and calipers will usually get you one thing, less fade. But you really only see fade at the track. Heck, 997S brakes were used on the 996 turbo, after all. Anyway, if you have a BMW, the brakes are crap, easily into fade the moment you hit the track. Tough to find a good upgrade for the 997S, even if you go to the track. Most people track their 997S's and don't experience fade, AFAIK.
So, the PCCB's have a bunch of benefit, very little of it will be used on the street, except for less dust. I would have loved to find a used car with them because you get them for free almost. If I were to look for an upgrade, I wouldn't do it new, there is so much more that could be done to a 997 with $15k. But, if you have the money, buy 'em, put em on and love those yellow calipers every time you walk up to the car. I'd hunt for them used though. Good luck.
#44
11-16-2009, 07:03 PM
[quote=JEllis;2620674]
I think we were writing at the same time...
It's a lot more about heat dissipation and fade than it is about size. EVEN if you add more brake swept area, by a BBK, you may not even improve your braking performance. And if you use a track pad on the street, chances are really good your performance will be worse since the operating temperature is never reached.
It's a lot more about heat dissipation and fade than it is about size. EVEN if you add more brake swept area, by a BBK, you may not even improve your braking performance. And if you use a track pad on the street, chances are really good your performance will be worse since the operating temperature is never reached.
#45
11-16-2009, 07:27 PM
[quote=ryem3;2620702]
I think we were writing at the same time...
It's a lot more about heat dissipation and fade than it is about size. EVEN if you add more brake swept area, by a BBK, you may not even improve your braking performance. And if you use a track pad on the street, chances are really good your performance will be worse since the operating temperature is never reached.
Yes I agree with you I was using BBK as a general term to include all brake upgrades....
To get back on subject your thoughts explain why PCCB's although similear in size as stock brakes can actually provide better stopping power.
Jason
I think we were writing at the same time...
It's a lot more about heat dissipation and fade than it is about size. EVEN if you add more brake swept area, by a BBK, you may not even improve your braking performance. And if you use a track pad on the street, chances are really good your performance will be worse since the operating temperature is never reached.
Yes I agree with you I was using BBK as a general term to include all brake upgrades....
To get back on subject your thoughts explain why PCCB's although similear in size as stock brakes can actually provide better stopping power.
Jason