Why does Porsche even make this car? It's not like dealerships are selling the "S" at MSRP and at 90K or so for a base car it's even more expensive than a CPO 997S ? Heck it's even more expensive than a CPO Turbo or Gt3 ? It's not that its a bad car. In fact it's a great car and it made sense for the 09 market but at that time there weren't enough of them . So now it's 2010 and there's too many and they just sit. Look at the vast majority of inventories and you's be hard pressed not to find a black or silver 997 coupe.

Fast forward to resale. Supposing one buys an 09 base coupe. It's desireable agaisnt the 997.1S because it may have PDK or an extra year of warranty. But the 2010 car? How ? Once bought the 2010 base coupe would have to face a harder resale against an 09 997.2 "S" even though its one year older.

Now Porsche is doing this base and "S" models with the Turbo too. I can't even imagine how one might feel if he paid 150+K for a 997.2tt and then a year later his Turbo sits on second base behind the "S". He hasn;t even changed the oil yet and the car was revised.

So what's my question --

Would these model sell better if there was only ONE car (instead of two) and priced firmly in the price gap between the two ? Your thoughts.

 

You rationalize this too much. For PAG is just one model of the many 911 variants. For the consumer is a price choice. Many buyers still keep cars longer than 2 or 3 years and they do not fret about other model introductions.

 

It hasn't always been this way. The "S" two tier concept originated with the Boxter . Great idea for that car too but at 90K for a base 997 this car is not cheap.

Back in those days the 996 did not have a 2"S' model. The 993 only had the "S' with the 4S and at the last year of production has a 2S . Before the 993 there was also no "S" .

Also back then the price fluctuations were not like in current times . There were no big incentives or lease deals.

Lastly --I think the base , S , and Turbo are GREAT for the Cayenne and Panamera . It would be great if Porsche ever built a 3 series contender.

I just don't see it as impressive with the 997 in todays market -just my opinion.

 

There's always something new and "maybe" cooler (or not) - maybe for the 2-yr lease people, they can stay fairly current. Next year all our cars are "the old model".

And sure, a new car will cost more than CPO. Different sort of buying goal though. Some buyers are looking for a new car.

A new base will always be more affordable than a new S. When considering shoppers for new cars, that's really all it is about. All or most car companies have model variants. It's marketing/packaging.

 

I agree , however , this is a similar risk BMW took . Leasing became about 2/3 of the buying segment and with that brings a different attention baed consumer . They released new cars and claimed "record sales" but look at BMW now. They lost a lot of customers .

Leasing can make a car very cool one day and not so cool the next. Porsche has never been this way . They have prided themselves on offering the best car they can .

Why not offer CPO lease deals ? Cpo has been a success .

Either way --90K oe 1200 a month for a lease attracts a select customer.
The 997 coupe was a great car for last years run with the economy down and a new model refresh . Do you see this working in todays market with so many of them sitting?

 

One more thing -- This part -
"priced firmly in the price gap between the two "

The lowers the bar on the S price .
It raises the bar on the base price .

It firms the market .. no discount .. ONE great car!!!!

 

Larry: You dismissed the S variant in 40 years of 911 models. S models have been in the lineup since the early 911, like the 911S in '67, and various Carrera S of the 80s and 90s. It did not start with the Boxster.

The S has always been the top model for its tier. But who cares? One picks what one needs/wants. There are very good reasons to select a non-S. Perhaps not for you or me, but certainly for many.

Where did you get the $90k Carrera base price? The MSRP for a base 997.2 Carrera is $77.8k. A base S is $88.8k. A $10k diff.

 

Going back in time I recall an "E" model =sportomatic (semi automatic) . The "S" was the main car. The RS was the racing version . The Targa was also in the lineup .

I understand your point . The usage of the letter "S" might get confusing when considering the model designation. So I'll clarrify.

My point is even though there were different models they were not market stuctured in the same manner as today . Todays Porsche has 14 models (not even counting a Gt2 and the Turbo S cars) . This was not the case back then . The current 997 S cars have seen discounts as high as 10-20 percent and that was not the case back then. The base 997 faces a who new realm of competition .. so does the S and at 90K fior a base it's more expensive to get into an entry level 911 at an economoc time where i wonder how it can fit in .

When I discuss Honda --the base price works because it's all included .
But with a 997 -how many people do you know who buy a base car with no options ? When was the last time you bought one? does "base price" have a leg to stand on when making real world application price comparisons?

 

I can see your point, but I think your time window is too short. Besides that, you're tangling marketing decisions with engineering issues. Porsche marketing has gone through some serious changes of direction over the last thrity years. Even over the last ten years I believe, though I was too distracted to pay much attention over that span.

Let's go back a way to get perspective. The two-tier concept did not originate with the Boxster. It has been part of the 911 from the beginning. Step into the engineering world for a minute. Porsche was a sports car first. The implication of the 'sport' aspect in the early days was rallying or road car racing, more like our DE days than serious racing, because the idea was to drive the damn thing everywhere else as well. And in many ways public roads were more challenging than race tracks. Such cars were not for just on the track or in hillclimbs. They meant cars that go much faster than ordinary go-to-the-theater cars over the roads of that time, which included very few freeways outside Los Angeles.

The evolution of the 911 embraces the idea of a very fast road car when that meant very predictable handling for the unexpected circumstances of public roads without speed limits. Think of that as the simple sports car concept. But from such cars sprang the supercar concept, cars able to cruise at 100 mph and reach such speeds fast enough to make it worthwhile bothering before you ran out of appropriate road. Basically, the supercar to engineers is an attempt to bring as much of the race car extremism to the road as can be accomplished without killing more than a tolerable fraction of your customer base. Balance and agility vs extreme performance. The 911 followed both paths at once.

Some people scoffed at the 912, as they did the later 914 which was even more popular. But when I was a young man, the 912 was the smarter choice if you wanted a car to drive fast through Europe with luggage for two aboard and comfort that would persuade someone to stay in that passenger seat. The 911 was entirely too edgy for that purpose. Already the uncompromising race track approach had diverged enough to make the 911 a braggart's car in most public road driving, and a serious consideration for touring only by those with very high skill levels. A 911 could get you killed if you drove it across Europe at the same speeds a 912 could manage. Sound silly? Not really. The suspension that was graceful and comfortable in a 912 was ready to snap spin a 911 if you let your attention drift for a minute.

They dropped the 912 when they conceived the joint venture with VW of the 914. Then they resurrected it for a year, but I forget details. When they finally dropped it, they gave the 911 not just a replacement at the sports car level but an intermediate car as well. Just as we have now. For several years, they sold the 911T. 'T' for touring, which meant "sports car" in that particular era. The 911S sold "only for the expert" was the super car branch, though we didn't use the term then, and finally the 911L for those who wanted something beyond the entry level T, but didn't feel like the commitment that driving an S required.

The idea of a multi-tiered line of cars is not new, nor even original with Porsche. Ferrari has always done the same. It is an obvious and almost essential approach for any company based on racing prowess. Skipping the management issues in the background that somewhat tangle the marketing picture, we have had a multi-tier Porsche family for as long as I've been paying attention. Right now, we have the Boxster/Cayman entry level, which very much corresponds to the 912 concept. A very good handling car that will let you go inordinately fast across varying roads that we call "surface roads" today. Then we have the 911S and 911TT pursuing the supercar path of course. In between, we have the 'base' 911. For what I'm worth in marketing you could start a lemonade stand, but perhaps they do make a mistake in not giving it a suffix of its own. The 911L maybe? Or even a modern 911T.

The truth is always the same. You can drive a 911 Carrera with no suffix across Europe's country roads with a speed that no other car can exceed. The handling is superb, the ride comfort is quite acceptable with PASM and those 'mere' 18" wheels, and you can still enjoy an Autobahn blast to 150 when you get a chance. 150 is the new hundred I gather, but I can't recommend it honestly until you have a lot of track experience first. Nevertheless, the Carrera will cheerfully cruise that way if you're the driver for it.

We bought the S, but I seriously considered the 'base' model. For the same price I had a choice between a fresh-off-the-truck Carrera with all the same options we got on our S and a couple besides, like air cooled seats which really would make sense in our desert home. Or the Carrera S we bought, of the same then-current model year, but one previous owner. I'll be honest. If the Carrera hadn't been in that gorgeous shade of black, we'd own it today. But as they say, in the desert black is not a color, it's a lifestyle. And I'm not healthy enough to wash my car every morning these days. So I opted for the Arctic Silver. Did the 'S' suffix matter? Well, yes. To be honest, I'm not mature enough yet to admit my track days are done and I can't really use the extra 40 horsepower on public roads. You never know. Maybe Arnold Schwarzenegger will flag me down any day and say he absolutely has to get to Sacramento in three hours and his plane has sprung a leak. Can I do it?

When he does, the extra forty horses will be reassuring, but not really necessary. The truth is, the Carrera can do anything on a public road I should be doing. Me or any sane driver. Even in a financial crisis that needs a 150 mph governor run.

If Porsche is having trouble moving the unsuffixed Carrera, I'd say they should blame the sales team, not the engineers and certainly not the decision to return to the classical model line structure of Porsche.

 

Oh yes, I forgot to say "hell yes" to ADias's observation. A great many people buy fine cars like the Porsche because they are fine cars, not as an investment and not as temporary holding model while they wait for next year's version. To be honest, I can't remember a time in the last 45 years when it wasn't entirely credible that the car you bought today would be the best you could find for its mechanical lifetime. We've been under the threat of legislation blocking the sale of nice cars -- as you and I mean it -- since at least 1968.

We bought this car figuring we'd have it for at least ten years, and I know people who don't think in terms of years at all. They just want a Porsche to have forever.

Gary

 

The two go hand in hand and I am saying that one car would place the focus back on engineering and I think it can help marketing.
When I cite 10 -20 percent discounts it reflects a trend that buyers aren't paying MSRP.
Buyers aren't just shopping for bargains .. they are creating them when they don't buy the cars . I like the base car . I just don't see how with 14 models of 997 how it's needed or where it fits in todays market .


I was wrong in phrasing my point this way . You are right.. there was an "S" model .
However the difference between the S and the E was transmission . The RS was racing . The Targa was roof . There weren't as many models as today structured to compete in the same marketing manner . The differences were more significant back then . I should not have chosen a better descripition .I was simply thinking of yesteday's cars using todays terms .

This is also my point . By having the two models so similar --it serves to confuse the buyer . You had to really think not just about the car .. but the price too and even though both are great cars didn't getting a few dollars off the top and paying a bit more than the base close the deal ? why not just have that one choice ? Why not opt for simplicity ? Even simpicity in resale .

Just engineer the best car and price it where the market has driven it to be priced .
right now a nicely equipped base is 90K and a 997S is about 105 . Wouldn't one car at 97.5 MSRP simplify so much?

 

The S is an essentially an "option package" which happens to include a larger engine, no different than what a number of other manufacturers do. I think that many, many actual or potential Porsche buyers don't really care; the base Carerra with some of the interior gingerbread upgrades suits their needs and wants perfectly. The S's slightly better performance is important to only a relatively few of us.

The best indicator is Porsche's new car sales' figures for base versus S over the past 5 years or so, regardless of what us 6speed members think.

 

A 3 series contender? Porsche is rolling out a sub$40k car. A 2 seater smaller and lighter than the boxster. Check this months car and driver. So they are adding more volume by releasing a car in even a lower price point

personally I would never buy anything but an S. $10k is a bargain (in Porsche terms) for what you get - more hp, bigger brakes etc...
Lots of us spend $5--10k on mods that we hope add 25hp (my experience is they don't add anything and yes I did before and after dynos)

 

So why not just give them the full package right out of the gate ,cut the price , and not discount the car as much ?

 

At 90K for a nicely equipped base I agree . It's a lot of money to spend to almost have all the options.

The last two models before the 997 -- 993 base and 993 C4S had the idential engine. The 996 base and 4S had identical engine too. The "S" engine was identical for those models.

When the 05 car came out the 997s was priced higher than the 996 so keeping the base car gave a 996 pricing equivalent. Even last year in 09 with a down economy a new base car was attractive over a 997.1S without things like PDK. But now? Why make the car ?

I agree with you. I bought an "S' .