I agree 100% this is very sour; problem is my best friend from FL is flying out as this was supposed to be guys weekend, and now it is ruined . So otherwise, I would probably not have bothered to post here, shrugged my shoulders, and moved on.

 

Dunk,
My apologies. I just reviewed the Zone 8, San Diego region rules and found them to be as you describe. They seem mostly incomprehensible, excessive and over-the-top, imo, for their intended DE purpose. They specifically state they are designed to discourage modifications - what's up with that? It's hard for me to imagine why anyone would go through this rigmarole. Do drivers really attend these events with all this hoopla? And holding a DE in a parking lot with "classes" necessitating upgraded safety equipment?? Someone's been smokin' way to much crack or taking themselves way too seriously. Anyway, hope you can find a more accommodating organization as the track really is the best place to let your car safely run. Best regards,

In the event anyone wants to see for themselves what an organization run amok looks like, check this out. Perhaps someone from the region can provide a coherent rationale for all this.

http://zone8.pca.org/rules/2011/2011Z8Rules.pdf

 

Appears the same group responsible for writing the health care bill got together in Zone 8 for a test run. I couldn't stand to read through either.

 

In all fairness I have run with Zone 8 PCA in their DE's and TT events for the past 2 years. They are some of the most well put on track events I have been to.. its all business and all about max track time and fun.

The are sticklers for safety, and in the long run, these safety measures are to protect you and the people on track with you.

IMO, a solid roll bar, harnesses, and hans will not only make you safe, but faster as you will be firmly in your seat, and have more confidence.

If the rules for PCA Region 8 changed, it was done at the board of directors level.

I will continue to run with PCA as I have never run TT events with another group that the events run as smoothly and have as much track time as the PCA SDR TT events.

If you don't want to run all the new safety requirements, then you can sign up with Porsche Owners Club (another awesome club that I run with) and do the PDS series which is meant for exactly what you are looking for. You will learn to drive your car safely and fast on the track with the best instruction, and this will help you progress 10 times faster than just going by yourself to the track.

My 2 cents, pick the up or just keep walking by them.

 

I was going to say, aside from the national rules, specific zones get to make whatever rules they deem necessary. Some regions here in the southeast have some stringent rules before they'll promote people up into higher run groups, but nothing this rash.

This seems like it's way over the top for a DE. They seem to be after more of a driving school than what many of us consider a DE.

I'd just run with someone else if I were you.

 

DÜnkleblau, obviously something went wrong somewhere -- and it is likely in communication or understanding.

We do not write rules to exclude -- what we try to do is classify cars so that they "run with the right folks" and are as safe as the car next to you on the track. Remember that the car next to you could be as dangerous a companion as you would ever want to be around.

And it is true that as you continue to add mods, your car becomes more of a loaded weapon -- also remember that we encourage driving skill growth to begin long before you add extra ammunition. Most cars at the level of a 911 are already beyond the maximal control of 99% of its owners.

By the way, there are THREE levels in Porsche Club of America - National, Zone and Region. National ONLY runs the Club race program and advises other driving programs. ZONE writes rules for regions of the country (13 Regions in Zone 8) and consults all the regions to apply rules that do not signficantly change in the drive between Santa Barbara and San Diego, for example. And lastly, the Regions are local - i.e. San Diego, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Golden Empire (Bakersfield), Central Coast, So. Arizona, et al. A region MAY write its own rule variances dependent upon local conditions (i.e. racing at Willow Springs in July and allowing short sleeve shirts in a DE or AX) but the safety rules are consistent as to cars.

So your references to rules are quite awry in determining where the determination was made and in what venue. Were you looking to drive in a Zone competition and series or was it a local San Diego event?

And from what you described about your car, if those are the total mods, I dont see how you came up with the scenario you described -- it doesn't make sense. So I suggest reading the rules yourself or asking for a review by a Zone 8 committee member.

I hate to say (well, no I don't) that there seems to much ado about nothing - but we have always encouraged competitors to come directly to the source to get answers to their questions.

I can be reached directly at carrera3@msn.com. I do not usually poke around forums becasue of the time it takes to keep up. One of your fellow posters however did write me and ask for clarifications "from the horses mouth"..

Michael Dolphin, Zone 8 Representative
Porsche Club of America

 

Michael,

I am not sure if I am alone who does not understand it, but how can it be possible to enforce a competition racing classification to a non-competition non-racing event which DE essentially is?

 

Exactly -- something IS very wrong somewhere. The behavior described is against everything that PCA stands for. And much of it sounds very childish about "phoning around to alert other shops".

I am willing to assist in a solution -- but prefer to do so directly and with all the facts. There is only one side of the story here.

 

Michael,

Thanks for dropping in and offering to help sort this out.

 

Sd enforces competition classes in de: as I am now told because people like me don't know how to handle a stock 911S ("it has 99% more power than you can handle")

To be complete on the mods
Cai, plenum, ecu (reversible giac , though I was literally accused that I couldn't be trusted to leave it stock), center muffler delete and bilsteins and sways

I was added 2 points for my stock tires

They again invited me to put roll cages in or uninstall stuff I paid to put in

In the end the prevailing rationale is that newbies cannot handle a stock car and so they should not modify.

Again, what if I bought a stock gt3rs - well, I'd be welcome without stripping it down to a carrera level or put roll bars in it

Makes no sense

 

Dunkleblau S, I left a message on your phone a few minutes ago. The more I read here on these forum postings, the less sense it makes.

And the rationale posted makes no sense at all -- we do not pass judgement on the driver based upon the car they drive. That task is upon your driving instructor/observer and based upon considered feedback. There is no option based on that "99%" analogy. We just want to be sure that those folks don't kill somebody else.

I'm looking forward to a real conversation.

 

Michael and Dunk,
I hope you guys can work this out. The PCA DE program is too good, too much fun and too beneficial to get trashed either because of a misunderstanding or because someone got unnecessarily caught up in a bureaucratic frenzy. Best wishes to all!

 

Let me get this straight

You go out and buy a car. You decide to spend $$$ increasing its performance potential. You then decide to participate in an event you know nothing about with a group you know nothing about. (Even though their rules are clearly posted on their website.)

You then learn that they have rules; that all your hard earned money spent on those mods is either going to go to waste because you have to take them off, or you have to spend more because you decided to upgrade performance without upgrading safety.

So you didn't know the rules. A newbie mistake, but a mistake none the less. What should they do, ignore the rules for you? Rules that have probably worked for them for years? If you don't have to follow them, then no one does.

So you are PO'd. Understandable. But it's their fault, not yours, right? You didn't learn before spending and that is their problem, right? No blame for you here. Why learn about something before you try and do it? Who has time for that?

And then somewhere along the line you decide to work with a different tech inspector. And you are surprised to learn that they talk to each other! Hmm, their thankless job is to keep everybody safe and following the rules. Not rules they wrote, but rules the VOLUNTEERED to enforce. So yeah, maybe they talk, after all they are working for the same region for the same event. Maybe they are even best friends. Maybe they need to talk to prevent people from doing an end-run around the system.

So you are not happy. Did you call the event chair? Did you call the tech inspectors, the region president, the rules chair? The Zone Rep? Anybody? Their contact info, like their rules, is readily available.

Or did you just decide that the best way to solve your little problem was to trash talk people, their company, their region and all its hardworking volunteers on a public forum?

OK, so I'm making a lot a guesses here. But I have to say your inflammatory dialog makes me suspicious of everything you say. I strongly suspect that you have heavily tilted this discussion in your favor. After all, why are you here, instead of on the phone with those that can solve your problem?

Michael is a good man, I trust he will get to the bottom of this. But San Diego is a good region with good volunteers and a long history of holding outstanding and well run DE's and Time Trials; with some of the best and hardest working volunteers in the club.

And, to those of you around the country, national makes it very clear that the DE rules they give us are MINIMUM standards. Regions are free to be more strict when it comes to safety. Zone 8 is probably the strictest in the country, no doubt about it. We take safety very seriously here. A crash at 100 MPH is just as expensive at a DE as it is at a Club Race. If you modify your car for performance, you have to modify it for safety as well. Stock cars, not an issue, but modified, you bet. If you don't want harnesses, don't modify your car. Doesn't matter if it is a DE or Time Trial (competitive or non-competitive), the speeds, the passing, the continuous laps and the venues dictate that those events have the same safety rules here in Zone 8. There is a well published and public procedure for changing the rules for those that feel change is necessary. Maybe if he read the rules he'd know that too. Maybe it wouldn't work in your region, but it works for us. Doesn't make us bad, or you good. Just different.

It is unfortunate that a newbie got the short end of the stick, but if he'd read those rules, he'd know he could have asked for a waiver, at least for the first event. But after all this ranting and raving, I'm sure he's lost any supporters he might have had amongst the volunteer team running the DE. Running an event is hard enough without having to deal with people like this.

I don't expect to change his mind, but I hope that the rest of you that seem to be supporting him might recognize that there may be a different way to look at this. It seems to me better approach for him would have been to understand that decisions made in ignorance might not have been the best decisions he could have made. Maybe he has to pay for some mistakes, but learning from them instead of whining about them will get him farther in the long run. Life isn't fair. Trash talking on the forum doesn't fix that.

 

I tried to call these individuals, they didn't respond. I didn't end run anything. This is a DE not a competition. And I am not trash talking anyone. I posted here to get some perspective from others around the country, as what seems fishy is the overzealous application of rules to a non-competitive event.

You are so baiting in your ranting and trashing of "my little problem." My problem for next weekend is solved. I am going to run with the Alfa group at Big Willow where they could give two ****s if I have sway bars or not. I can tell you for an absolute fact, the tech in question is NOT best friends with my tech; and my tech also feels it was completely inappropriate and childish to call around. No one was doing an end-run around anything.

And yes, I am PISSED OFF I spent all kinds of cash and I am not welcome because of some overzealous application of competition rules to the spirit of becoming a better driver.

Oh and another thing that is fishy is that that was your very first post --- good on ya

Sorry you see it this way, but it sure helps me get some perspective --

 

Outside observer here... I was interested, sure seemed like a case of something being blown out of proportion... I looked at the zone 8 rules (with classes for DE's). 12 pages describing the classes, progression through the classes, mod points, and chart detailing the progression through the class (it looks like a complicated children's game of chutes and ladders).

I feel for the original poster, while every situation has two sides and there is likely more information out there on this, the rules, as presented, do allow for the scenario described. His original post showed a bunch of frustration but the thread title is as it should be, be careful with mods if you want to run.