Be very careful of Mods in PCA Region 8 and track events
#46
01-14-2011, 07:36 PM
These rules are very dumb if true for a DE. I thought the main goals of DE's are to get owners out to LEARN how to drive their cars and have fun @ the same time. These rules don't seem to promote that @ all. Isn't he gonna have an instructor in the car anyways???
#47
01-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 177
Rep Power: 39 
I stand accused of buying the car first, and then figuring I should join a Porsche Club -- silly me, I should have read the charter before buying my car. 
How bass-ackwards is that?
Yes, it was to be a non-competitive DE with an instructor in the front seat with me
How bass-ackwards is that?
Yes, it was to be a non-competitive DE with an instructor in the front seat with me
#48
01-14-2011, 08:45 PM
Yamahaman, looking at the rules in post #32 they do appear a bit much for a novice to digest. A modified car doesn't equate to a bad novice driver or one willing to take excessive risks. Putting a roll bar in a modified car won't cure a poor attitude.
Last edited by Alan C.; 01-14-2011 at 08:56 PM.
#49
01-14-2011, 09:45 PM
Let me get this straight
You go out and buy a car. You decide to spend $$$ increasing its performance potential. You then decide to participate in an event you know nothing about with a group you know nothing about. (Even though their rules are clearly posted on their website.)
You then learn that they have rules; that all your hard earned money spent on those mods is either going to go to waste because you have to take them off, or you have to spend more because you decided to upgrade performance without upgrading safety.
So you didn't know the rules. A newbie mistake, but a mistake none the less. What should they do, ignore the rules for you? Rules that have probably worked for them for years? If you don't have to follow them, then no one does.
So you are PO'd. Understandable. But it's their fault, not yours, right? You didn't learn before spending and that is their problem, right? No blame for you here. Why learn about something before you try and do it? Who has time for that?
And then somewhere along the line you decide to work with a different tech inspector. And you are surprised to learn that they talk to each other! Hmm, their thankless job is to keep everybody safe and following the rules. Not rules they wrote, but rules the VOLUNTEERED to enforce. So yeah, maybe they talk, after all they are working for the same region for the same event. Maybe they are even best friends. Maybe they need to talk to prevent people from doing an end-run around the system.
So you are not happy. Did you call the event chair? Did you call the tech inspectors, the region president, the rules chair? The Zone Rep? Anybody? Their contact info, like their rules, is readily available.
Or did you just decide that the best way to solve your little problem was to trash talk people, their company, their region and all its hardworking volunteers on a public forum?
OK, so I'm making a lot a guesses here. But I have to say your inflammatory dialog makes me suspicious of everything you say. I strongly suspect that you have heavily tilted this discussion in your favor. After all, why are you here, instead of on the phone with those that can solve your problem?
Michael is a good man, I trust he will get to the bottom of this. But San Diego is a good region with good volunteers and a long history of holding outstanding and well run DE's and Time Trials; with some of the best and hardest working volunteers in the club.
And, to those of you around the country, national makes it very clear that the DE rules they give us are MINIMUM standards. Regions are free to be more strict when it comes to safety. Zone 8 is probably the strictest in the country, no doubt about it. We take safety very seriously here. A crash at 100 MPH is just as expensive at a DE as it is at a Club Race. If you modify your car for performance, you have to modify it for safety as well. Stock cars, not an issue, but modified, you bet. If you don't want harnesses, don't modify your car. Doesn't matter if it is a DE or Time Trial (competitive or non-competitive), the speeds, the passing, the continuous laps and the venues dictate that those events have the same safety rules here in Zone 8. There is a well published and public procedure for changing the rules for those that feel change is necessary. Maybe if he read the rules he'd know that too. Maybe it wouldn't work in your region, but it works for us. Doesn't make us bad, or you good. Just different.
It is unfortunate that a newbie got the short end of the stick, but if he'd read those rules, he'd know he could have asked for a waiver, at least for the first event. But after all this ranting and raving, I'm sure he's lost any supporters he might have had amongst the volunteer team running the DE. Running an event is hard enough without having to deal with people like this.
I don't expect to change his mind, but I hope that the rest of you that seem to be supporting him might recognize that there may be a different way to look at this. It seems to me better approach for him would have been to understand that decisions made in ignorance might not have been the best decisions he could have made. Maybe he has to pay for some mistakes, but learning from them instead of whining about them will get him farther in the long run. Life isn't fair. Trash talking on the forum doesn't fix that.
You go out and buy a car. You decide to spend $$$ increasing its performance potential. You then decide to participate in an event you know nothing about with a group you know nothing about. (Even though their rules are clearly posted on their website.)
You then learn that they have rules; that all your hard earned money spent on those mods is either going to go to waste because you have to take them off, or you have to spend more because you decided to upgrade performance without upgrading safety.
So you didn't know the rules. A newbie mistake, but a mistake none the less. What should they do, ignore the rules for you? Rules that have probably worked for them for years? If you don't have to follow them, then no one does.
So you are PO'd. Understandable. But it's their fault, not yours, right? You didn't learn before spending and that is their problem, right? No blame for you here. Why learn about something before you try and do it? Who has time for that?
And then somewhere along the line you decide to work with a different tech inspector. And you are surprised to learn that they talk to each other! Hmm, their thankless job is to keep everybody safe and following the rules. Not rules they wrote, but rules the VOLUNTEERED to enforce. So yeah, maybe they talk, after all they are working for the same region for the same event. Maybe they are even best friends. Maybe they need to talk to prevent people from doing an end-run around the system.
So you are not happy. Did you call the event chair? Did you call the tech inspectors, the region president, the rules chair? The Zone Rep? Anybody? Their contact info, like their rules, is readily available.
Or did you just decide that the best way to solve your little problem was to trash talk people, their company, their region and all its hardworking volunteers on a public forum?
OK, so I'm making a lot a guesses here. But I have to say your inflammatory dialog makes me suspicious of everything you say. I strongly suspect that you have heavily tilted this discussion in your favor. After all, why are you here, instead of on the phone with those that can solve your problem?
Michael is a good man, I trust he will get to the bottom of this. But San Diego is a good region with good volunteers and a long history of holding outstanding and well run DE's and Time Trials; with some of the best and hardest working volunteers in the club.
And, to those of you around the country, national makes it very clear that the DE rules they give us are MINIMUM standards. Regions are free to be more strict when it comes to safety. Zone 8 is probably the strictest in the country, no doubt about it. We take safety very seriously here. A crash at 100 MPH is just as expensive at a DE as it is at a Club Race. If you modify your car for performance, you have to modify it for safety as well. Stock cars, not an issue, but modified, you bet. If you don't want harnesses, don't modify your car. Doesn't matter if it is a DE or Time Trial (competitive or non-competitive), the speeds, the passing, the continuous laps and the venues dictate that those events have the same safety rules here in Zone 8. There is a well published and public procedure for changing the rules for those that feel change is necessary. Maybe if he read the rules he'd know that too. Maybe it wouldn't work in your region, but it works for us. Doesn't make us bad, or you good. Just different.
It is unfortunate that a newbie got the short end of the stick, but if he'd read those rules, he'd know he could have asked for a waiver, at least for the first event. But after all this ranting and raving, I'm sure he's lost any supporters he might have had amongst the volunteer team running the DE. Running an event is hard enough without having to deal with people like this.
I don't expect to change his mind, but I hope that the rest of you that seem to be supporting him might recognize that there may be a different way to look at this. It seems to me better approach for him would have been to understand that decisions made in ignorance might not have been the best decisions he could have made. Maybe he has to pay for some mistakes, but learning from them instead of whining about them will get him farther in the long run. Life isn't fair. Trash talking on the forum doesn't fix that.
Last edited by bbywu; 01-15-2011 at 04:12 AM. Reason: removed insult
#50
01-14-2011, 11:37 PM
To clarify this is a DE - driver's ed event for me - I don't pretend to be Mario Andretti, this event was open to members of PCA hosted by Region 8 at Streets of Willow. I signed up for DRIVERS ED, not time trials or racing or anything else.
I didn't make a mistake regarding my understanding of the rules - this is what the event chair and the self-anointed "tech" guru for the region demanded of me;
[...]
Any other ideas on more welcoming clubs?
Now for the sake of people more serious about their driving, let's go over your earlier points. The rules differ only for driving and appearance events. Concours events have their own rule book. Driving events all use the same rule book and that is your mistake. You should have read the rule book. "Whose club is this?" Ours. We make the rules.
Yours too, if you've become a member. People are voted into the club leadership positions by the usual procedures, with the caveat that you have to know what you're talking about to hold a technical position like one of the people responsible for safety of the track, the drivers, or their cars. That "tech guru" who spoke to you isn't "self-anointed". If you're interested in changing the rules that guide his decisions, you need to read them first. Then convince me and enough other members that you know better than the last forty years of experience that went into those rules.
Am I making my point here?
Now as for your specific complaint, the rules are pretty straightforward about how your car moves from street stock into the different levels of modification. Decades ago, PCA like my other club SCCA, found that people had to be encouraged to modify their safety equipment in parallel with their performance equipment. By 'encourage' we mean "not allowed to participate unless they do". That's the rule that bit you. When you make enough changes to move out of street stock, you have to improve on the factory safety equipment as well.
It isn't 'stupid' as someone else said. Just selfish. This keeps down the insurance rates for us over-the-long-haul-survivors and also lets us not feel guilty when you get maimed or killed. We always know we encouraged you to use good judgment and you went out of your way to get hurt despite our rules.
Gary, who has picked up the pieces after
his share of "self-anointed" immortals
who found their determined fate
Last edited by simsgw; 01-15-2011 at 01:58 AM. Reason: Fixed a typo. Should take time to proof read.
#51
01-15-2011, 03:58 AM
Basically when we're talking about stuff like this, our cars are our toys and Zone 8 is enlightened in that respect. All the modifications they've run into are given a point value. If they just affect appearance, like painting "racing stripes" then no points are assessed. No improvement, no points. Mods that have shown value in reducing lap times are assessed points. Furthermore, manufacturers usually offer options that count as 'stock' because they come from the factory, but they certainly improve performance. Porsche is famous for this. You can build a race-ready car from the options list. If you have performance options, they add points to your category assessment. So my 997 Carrera S has wide tires compared to the other cars in its base class and they have been shown to increase performance. That gives me a two-point assessment. No big deal, but it does mean if I do anything else -- as you have -- then I'll be assigned a different category for fairness. My car will move up from "Street Stock" to simply "Stock".
Zone 8 has five categories. The first two pretty much encompass the "love my car so I added some touches to personalize it." Up to eight points can be earned with mods and still stay in these stock classes. I don't know the point values for the specific wheels and exhaust system you have installed, but it's
almost certain they don't add up to six more points, assuming you also have that two-point tire penalty I uh... 'enjoy'. Using a different rule of thumb, six points is the rough equivalent of 27 horsepower. Advertising hyperbole notwithstanding, I doubt your exhaust system achieves that improvement, so you would run in 'stock' category in the class determined by your model. My class P includes: 1994 911 Turbo 3.6, 993 Turbo, 996 Turbo , 997 Carrera S, 997 Turbo. It reads like the 997 Turbo is the only car that would have a chance if one shows up, but suppose I put racing rubber on my 997C2S? Not enough? Probably not. How about a supercharger as well? How now? You see how a group must either allow arbitrary decisions of a competition committee or arrive at some points allocation for different mods. Zone 8 created the points table and still allows for arbitrary judgment in the interest of fairness.
So you would run in 'stock' category at worst and harnesses are not required. You also can do things that automatically put you into stock (as opposed to the bottom category of "street stock"). The OP mentioned several of those changes, including a new chip, changing the suspension components to a different type, and so forth. That still would not require a set of racing harness restraints, but the points come close to the eight-point limit already and his note is hardly as specific as it should be for a category assessment. I'm not surprised the total of his mods pushed him over that eight-point limit into one of the categories that refine the simple "race prepared" category of my early days. Zone 8 recognizes three such categories, from prepared to improved to modified. From his angry account, we can't tell which category he fell into, but the rule on safety equipment says:
For Time Trial and DE, five or six-point harnesses are required for all drivers and passengers running in any Prepared class or higher and are strongly recommended for all entrants.
Is this system more elaborate than other zones have developed? I suppose, from the surprised tenor of some comments. But it really should not be surprising that Zone 8 would have to get more elaborate than some national zones. We have a tremendous number of highly modified cars running any time someone throws out a bunch of pylons at a shopping center and announces an autocross in the newspaper. The official competition and DE days for a group like PCA draw a lot of cars and a lot of types and models as well, so trying to keep things fair calls for more elaborate rules than some places.
Finally, of course, we have those categories. Two stock, and three that amount to wannabe-racer. The traditional view dating back at least to my earliest days in Arizona of the sixties is roughly that high performance driving requires safety features beyond those of Aunt Sadie's go-to-market car. You have a lot more safety designed into any car today, but it's still true that when you start increasing performance you should be adding safety features as well. The rules in Zone 8 reflect that practical reality and encourage it.
I can't say how other zones deal with this issue, but I personally applaud our people who insist that any car modified enough to reach into the top three categories should also have racing harnesses installed, as well as the other safety features in the rules. No one has asked my opinion since we bought a Porsche and joined PCA, but the people making those decisions in the past certainly will get my vote to keep them in office.
For God's sake, people. In my bone stock C2S, on the 'small' track at Willow Springs, the Streets of Willow, I was going through the 'waterfall' turn complex at about 115 mph and it was only a DE day. Is it really asking too much to want a set of harnesses when I start modifying the car to go even faster?
Gary
#52
01-15-2011, 04:11 AM
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#53
01-15-2011, 04:14 AM
Please do not use insults to reinforce your arguments or point of view. While we are all passionate about this subject, make your arguments with facts without resorting to personal attacks.
Thanks.
Thanks.
#54
01-15-2011, 07:13 AM
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 177
Rep Power: 39 Now for the sake of people more serious about their driving, let's go over your earlier points. The rules differ only for driving and appearance events. Concours events have their own rule book. Driving events all use the same rule book and that is your mistake. You should have read the rule book. "Whose club is this?" Ours. We make the rules.
Yours too, if you've become a member. People are voted into the club leadership positions by the usual procedures, with the caveat that you have to know what you're talking about to hold a technical position like one of the people responsible for safety of the track, the drivers, or their cars. That "tech guru" who spoke to you isn't "self-anointed". If you're interested in changing the rules that guide his decisions, you need to read them first. Then convince me and enough other members that you know better than the last forty years of experience that went into those rules.
Am I making my point here?
Am I making my point here?
Now as for your specific complaint, the rules are pretty straightforward about how your car moves from street stock into the different levels of modification. Decades ago, PCA like my other club SCCA, found that people had to be encouraged to modify their safety equipment in parallel with their performance equipment. By 'encourage' we mean "not allowed to participate unless they do". That's the rule that bit you. When you make enough changes to move out of street stock, you have to improve on the factory safety equipment as well.
It isn't 'stupid' as someone else said. Just selfish. This keeps down the insurance rates for us over-the-long-haul-survivors and also lets us not feel guilty when you get maimed or killed. We always know we encouraged you to use good judgment and you went out of your way to get hurt despite our rules.
Gary, who has picked up the pieces after
his share of "self-anointed" immortals
who found their determined fate
It isn't 'stupid' as someone else said. Just selfish. This keeps down the insurance rates for us over-the-long-haul-survivors and also lets us not feel guilty when you get maimed or killed. We always know we encouraged you to use good judgment and you went out of your way to get hurt despite our rules.
Gary, who has picked up the pieces after
his share of "self-anointed" immortals
who found their determined fate
So quit lecturing me about a couple of mods and stock tires and how I might kill someone in a controlled environment at a Driver's Ed course; given your 40 years of experience. I can't wait to meet you in person-- going to the AX today?
#57
01-15-2011, 11:50 AM
for God's sake, people. In my bone stock C2S, on the 'small' track at Willow Springs, the Streets of Willow, I was going through the 'waterfall' turn complex at about 115 mph and it was only a DE day. Is it really asking too much to want a set of harnesses when I start modifying the car to go even faster?
My home region typically assigns a driver to a class based on experience. So if you show up in a 977 turbo with coil overs and a plus sized tire and have never run with us and no one knows you you'll be put into a novice class with an instructor right along side a guy in a stock 924. And that instructor that will evaluate you to see if you are in the right class. If you are, you'll stay in the novice class until your skills improve. It works for us.
#58
01-15-2011, 02:11 PM
I have heard of products that permit five-point harnesses without a roll bar, though I can't quite picture it myself. In any case, as I implied, once I get notably into three-digit speeds I become conscious of the lack of roll protection beyond the stock body work. I don't know that you can pinwheel a 911 the way I've seen formula cars do, but I don't want to be in mid-air muttering "I'll be damned. You can get it airborne." while wishing I had a proper roll cage. A roll bar is the least I'd settle for.
I haven't asked what the rules would require of me in PCA. Not in engineering detail. I'm just telling you what I consider safe practice. Back when I was running a road car instead of formula cars, I fitted a roll bar even to run in the production classes and we considered it an advantage for daily driver use as well. I've never modified a road car for track performance, so if I got bit by that bug my first step would be to consult someone who knows what they're doing. Either that, or buy a car already prepared properly.
My home region typically assigns a driver to a class based on experience. So if you show up in a 977 turbo with coil overs and a plus sized tire and have never run with us and no one knows you you'll be put into a novice class with an instructor right along side a guy in a stock 924. And that instructor that will evaluate you to see if you are in the right class. If you are, you'll stay in the novice class until your skills improve. It works for us.
Gary
#59
01-15-2011, 03:10 PM
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I feel the real essense here is understanding .The rules of the track are what they are - yet they might have expressed this to Dunk in a manner where he would have felt more wlcome .
Last edited by yrralis1; 01-15-2011 at 03:14 PM.
#60
01-15-2011, 03:59 PM
Wow --looks like he insisted on adhering to the rules which apply to modificatins yet broke the rules on a simple message forum inside of three posts (as a 'newbie") Yet he is still welcomed here to post (he likes thse cars and enjoys driving them so he does have positive things to offer) .
I feel the real essense here is understanding .The rules of the track are what they are - yet they might have expressed this to Dunk in a manner where he would have felt more wlcome .
I feel the real essense here is understanding .The rules of the track are what they are - yet they might have expressed this to Dunk in a manner where he would have felt more wlcome .
Gary