Debate: stepping out of an 08 M3 Coupe for a 06 997S; right thing to do?
#16
02-13-2011, 10:56 AM
When I went to the M-school the instructors said they did not own a BMW but rather had corvettes and other affordable sports cars. When asked why, they said "bmw are great cars which are sporty but they are not sports cars!".
Myself and the rest of the participants impression of the new M3 was that it was better then the M5 and M6 which says a lot based on the price difference.
When I owned my 650 (which was my favorite bmw) I went to test drive a slighly used 997.1 C4S and walked away disappointed in every way.
-NO faster than my 650
-NO amenities like my 650 (bluetooth, good stereo, comfort, on and on)
-It was much more money USED!
So I left the dealership thinking that P-cars were not impressive at all.
Less then 1 year later I came back to try again, this time they had the 997.2PDK it took away any negative thought I had about P-cars. I was blown away and sold.
My car is way more thrilling then a M3 even at highway speeds. Now that it is modified, it is much much much more thrilling and impressive.
So Yes hold out for the .2 or the GT3, and enjoy your M3 for now.
Myself and the rest of the participants impression of the new M3 was that it was better then the M5 and M6 which says a lot based on the price difference.
When I owned my 650 (which was my favorite bmw) I went to test drive a slighly used 997.1 C4S and walked away disappointed in every way.
-NO faster than my 650
-NO amenities like my 650 (bluetooth, good stereo, comfort, on and on)
-It was much more money USED!
So I left the dealership thinking that P-cars were not impressive at all.
Less then 1 year later I came back to try again, this time they had the 997.2PDK it took away any negative thought I had about P-cars. I was blown away and sold.
My car is way more thrilling then a M3 even at highway speeds. Now that it is modified, it is much much much more thrilling and impressive.
So Yes hold out for the .2 or the GT3, and enjoy your M3 for now.
#17
02-13-2011, 11:37 AM
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I thought I would put my .02 into this thread because I did the opposite. I went from a 997.1S to a 2011 E92 M3. I pretty much agree with Larry's (yrralis) idea on the subject. If you can only have one car that is to be a DD than to me the E9X M3 is the perfect car. I loved my 997S and part of the issue for me in moving back into a M3 was the fact it just isn't that good of a DD in day in and day out living and I could only afford having one car.
Although Larry I love the power dome hood and the bulging fenders..
Although Larry I love the power dome hood and the bulging fenders..
#18
02-13-2011, 01:10 PM
The title says "debate" --
1) Car enthusiasts were not the concern of my point. I realize they know what an M3 is . Theives and vandals notice a Porsche a lot quicker than an M3 .
2) I actually like the lines of the Porsche 911 . In fact the thing i don't like about the M3 is the silly bump on the hood and the pumped up fenders . My first thought was that it looked like a sophisticated Mustang with those features.
3) When Porsche developed the Gt3 (unlike the M3) they made the aerokit like a work of art . BMW looks more like they took a 328i and fed it some spinach .
I have mixed sentiment on the M3 because there are so many good points too.
Whatever mixed feelings i have with the Porsche isn't so much about the car itself .
As for the 993 -- amazing car . I had both a C2S and a Turbo. The Turbo in its time was the most incredible machine at that price level . It's classic but its not modern and sadly it's not that fast or agile compared to current porsches . Yet the air cooled sound, offset pedals, and 1960's classic dash with 5 distinct dials just warms up so many fond memories of a car that i think is a Porsche 911 icon .
1) Car enthusiasts were not the concern of my point. I realize they know what an M3 is . Theives and vandals notice a Porsche a lot quicker than an M3 .
2) I actually like the lines of the Porsche 911 . In fact the thing i don't like about the M3 is the silly bump on the hood and the pumped up fenders . My first thought was that it looked like a sophisticated Mustang with those features.
3) When Porsche developed the Gt3 (unlike the M3) they made the aerokit like a work of art . BMW looks more like they took a 328i and fed it some spinach .
I have mixed sentiment on the M3 because there are so many good points too.
Whatever mixed feelings i have with the Porsche isn't so much about the car itself .
As for the 993 -- amazing car . I had both a C2S and a Turbo. The Turbo in its time was the most incredible machine at that price level . It's classic but its not modern and sadly it's not that fast or agile compared to current porsches . Yet the air cooled sound, offset pedals, and 1960's classic dash with 5 distinct dials just warms up so many fond memories of a car that i think is a Porsche 911 icon .
Umm....the only reason why the 911 is considered good looking is because of its sporting heritage and performance.
In reality its a bug-eyed toad-like car. Its really not that much of a looker (for a 100 K car)...but is of course, an amazing machine, and this is without doubt; hence the respect.
Its certainly no Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 458 Italia, or Audi R8 (and the R8 is barely good looking, just barely, lets assume I didn't even mention it) The 911 isn't...mostly because its not broad nor does it have the smooth italian/british curved lines.
Of course none of this matters because it has won so many awards/races etc, and is so refined...the ride does the talking.
Just saying to be realistic. I agree that BMWs aren't that great looking either; actually there isn't a single German car that is good looking except for the Carrera GT. No German car excites my visual senses the way a Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, or Carrera GT do (its the only one). Then again, no one has the performance value that Porsche does! Hence the tradeoff...just wish the Carrera were actually good looking, like genuinely, not inferred due to its amazing performance and feel.
Its a moot point arguing against this. And Porsche is priced in the same bracket as many of those cars.
Last edited by TheRox; 02-13-2011 at 01:13 PM.
#19
02-13-2011, 01:15 PM
When I went to the M-school the instructors said they did not own a BMW but rather had corvettes and other affordable sports cars. When asked why, they said "bmw are great cars which are sporty but they are not sports cars!".
Myself and the rest of the participants impression of the new M3 was that it was better then the M5 and M6 which says a lot based on the price difference.
When I owned my 650 (which was my favorite bmw) I went to test drive a slighly used 997.1 C4S and walked away disappointed in every way.
-NO faster than my 650
-NO amenities like my 650 (bluetooth, good stereo, comfort, on and on)
-It was much more money USED!
So I left the dealership thinking that P-cars were not impressive at all.
Less then 1 year later I came back to try again, this time they had the 997.2PDK it took away any negative thought I had about P-cars. I was blown away and sold.
My car is way more thrilling then a M3 even at highway speeds. Now that it is modified, it is much much much more thrilling and impressive.
So Yes hold out for the .2 or the GT3, and enjoy your M3 for now.
Myself and the rest of the participants impression of the new M3 was that it was better then the M5 and M6 which says a lot based on the price difference.
When I owned my 650 (which was my favorite bmw) I went to test drive a slighly used 997.1 C4S and walked away disappointed in every way.
-NO faster than my 650
-NO amenities like my 650 (bluetooth, good stereo, comfort, on and on)
-It was much more money USED!
So I left the dealership thinking that P-cars were not impressive at all.
Less then 1 year later I came back to try again, this time they had the 997.2PDK it took away any negative thought I had about P-cars. I was blown away and sold.
My car is way more thrilling then a M3 even at highway speeds. Now that it is modified, it is much much much more thrilling and impressive.
So Yes hold out for the .2 or the GT3, and enjoy your M3 for now.
#20
02-13-2011, 08:08 PM
Ah well, for me, probably going from 997 back to M3. Can't carry a bike in the back of a 997 and kids are really cramped as well. But clearly the slightly lighter weight and earlier torque curve of the 997 give it more punch at lower RPMs and make it a bit more tractable car around town. Also, the roaring V8 makes for some crappy gas mileage. Do note, that you can easily get around 12 mpg driving around town with the sport button on with a 997.
You mentioned the test drive with the Sport on and how brutal it was. What no one pointed out was that the sport button also turns up the sport suspension. It is really only good on the track - everyone finds it unbearable. The test drive will be a much different experience turning the PASM to "normal". They are great cars though - definitely worth owning.
You mentioned the test drive with the Sport on and how brutal it was. What no one pointed out was that the sport button also turns up the sport suspension. It is really only good on the track - everyone finds it unbearable. The test drive will be a much different experience turning the PASM to "normal". They are great cars though - definitely worth owning.
#21
02-13-2011, 08:20 PM
I actually had an E92 M3 DCT that I bought new and special ordered. I did not like its lack of focus. I own an E36 M3 as well and although the E36 is sorta the step child M3, I found that the E92 M3 lacked the connection to the driver that I craved in the rawer previous Gen car. I sold the M3 and bought an 06 997S and I never regretted the decision.
HOWEVER, if I had to have only one car, the M3 would have been it. I have the luxury of still owning my E36 M3 and it gets me around and does the grunt work when I do not feel like abusing the Porsche.
Jason
HOWEVER, if I had to have only one car, the M3 would have been it. I have the luxury of still owning my E36 M3 and it gets me around and does the grunt work when I do not feel like abusing the Porsche.
Jason
#24
02-13-2011, 10:13 PM
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Something that Rye brought up I found very dead on...regarding the sport mode for the 997. You can put the M3 in full sport and it would be softer than the PASM in normal. My 2011 M3 ZCP car in full sport is stiff but not like my 997S was.
My main draw to the M3 was the V8...I love V8s. After 2 E46 M3's (6years) and 1 997.1S (3.5yrs) I really missed having a V8. The S65 powerplant in the M3 is a gem. This thing rips to 8400rpm like a scalded dog...
The 997S making its torque down low makes the car feel more subdued when tooling around town and I was able to eek out 17mpg. with my 997S if I shifted before 3k rpm, while the best I can eek out of the E92 is 15mpg.
Jason, I feel a lot of the lack of disconnect with the E92 could have been the DCT. Yes its an awesome tranny, I am not trying to start the 6spd. vs. PDK,DCT wars all over again, but I do feel some of that disconnect is the fact you had a DCT. The M3 is much more comfortable than the 997 was, at least mine with the sport seats. As it should be as it is a GT car, not a sport car.
To be honest though, the main reason of getting rid of my 997 was the fact my business had a major downturn. I could only afford one car (not including wifey's), and couldn't have a DD business car and my toy. In some respects I feel the 2 cars shouldn't even be compared as they both have completely different missions.
Dave
My main draw to the M3 was the V8...I love V8s. After 2 E46 M3's (6years) and 1 997.1S (3.5yrs) I really missed having a V8. The S65 powerplant in the M3 is a gem. This thing rips to 8400rpm like a scalded dog...
The 997S making its torque down low makes the car feel more subdued when tooling around town and I was able to eek out 17mpg. with my 997S if I shifted before 3k rpm, while the best I can eek out of the E92 is 15mpg.
Jason, I feel a lot of the lack of disconnect with the E92 could have been the DCT. Yes its an awesome tranny, I am not trying to start the 6spd. vs. PDK,DCT wars all over again, but I do feel some of that disconnect is the fact you had a DCT. The M3 is much more comfortable than the 997 was, at least mine with the sport seats. As it should be as it is a GT car, not a sport car.
To be honest though, the main reason of getting rid of my 997 was the fact my business had a major downturn. I could only afford one car (not including wifey's), and couldn't have a DD business car and my toy. In some respects I feel the 2 cars shouldn't even be compared as they both have completely different missions.
Dave
Last edited by Dave07997S; 02-13-2011 at 10:18 PM.
#25
02-13-2011, 10:23 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Playa Del Rey, Ca
Posts: 1,725
Rep Power: 106 Umm....the only reason why the 911 is considered good looking is because of its sporting heritage and performance.
In reality its a bug-eyed toad-like car. Its really not that much of a looker (for a 100 K car)...but is of course, an amazing machine, and this is without doubt; hence the respect.
Its certainly no Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 458 Italia, or Audi R8 (and the R8 is barely good looking, just barely, lets assume I didn't even mention it) The 911 isn't...mostly because its not broad nor does it have the smooth italian/british curved lines.
Of course none of this matters because it has won so many awards/races etc, and is so refined...the ride does the talking.
Just saying to be realistic. I agree that BMWs aren't that great looking either; actually there isn't a single German car that is good looking except for the Carrera GT. No German car excites my visual senses the way a Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, or Carrera GT do (its the only one). Then again, no one has the performance value that Porsche does! Hence the tradeoff...just wish the Carrera were actually good looking, like genuinely, not inferred due to its amazing performance and feel.
Its a moot point arguing against this. And Porsche is priced in the same bracket as many of those cars.
In reality its a bug-eyed toad-like car. Its really not that much of a looker (for a 100 K car)...but is of course, an amazing machine, and this is without doubt; hence the respect.
Its certainly no Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 458 Italia, or Audi R8 (and the R8 is barely good looking, just barely, lets assume I didn't even mention it) The 911 isn't...mostly because its not broad nor does it have the smooth italian/british curved lines.
Of course none of this matters because it has won so many awards/races etc, and is so refined...the ride does the talking.
Just saying to be realistic. I agree that BMWs aren't that great looking either; actually there isn't a single German car that is good looking except for the Carrera GT. No German car excites my visual senses the way a Ferrari, Aston, Lambo, or Carrera GT do (its the only one). Then again, no one has the performance value that Porsche does! Hence the tradeoff...just wish the Carrera were actually good looking, like genuinely, not inferred due to its amazing performance and feel.
Its a moot point arguing against this. And Porsche is priced in the same bracket as many of those cars.
#26
02-13-2011, 10:49 PM
Something that Rye brought up I found very dead on...regarding the sport mode for the 997. You can put the M3 in full sport and it would be softer than the PASM in normal. My 2011 M3 ZCP car in full sport is stiff but not like my 997S was.
My main draw to the M3 was the V8...I love V8s. After 2 E46 M3's (6years) and 1 997.1S (3.5yrs) I really missed having a V8. The S65 powerplant in the M3 is a gem. This thing rips to 8400rpm like a scalded dog...
The 997S making its torque down low makes the car feel more subdued when tooling around town and I was able to eek out 17mpg. with my 997S if I shifted before 3k rpm, while the best I can eek out of the E92 is 15mpg.
Jason, I feel a lot of the lack of disconnect with the E92 could have been the DCT. Yes its an awesome tranny, I am not trying to start the 6spd. vs. PDK,DCT wars all over again, but I do feel some of that disconnect is the fact you had a DCT. The M3 is much more comfortable than the 997 was, at least mine with the sport seats. As it should be as it is a GT car, not a sport car.
To be honest though, the main reason of getting rid of my 997 was the fact my business had a major downturn. I could only afford one car (not including wifey's), and couldn't have a DD business car and my toy. In some respects I feel the 2 cars shouldn't even be compared as they both have completely different missions.
Dave
My main draw to the M3 was the V8...I love V8s. After 2 E46 M3's (6years) and 1 997.1S (3.5yrs) I really missed having a V8. The S65 powerplant in the M3 is a gem. This thing rips to 8400rpm like a scalded dog...
The 997S making its torque down low makes the car feel more subdued when tooling around town and I was able to eek out 17mpg. with my 997S if I shifted before 3k rpm, while the best I can eek out of the E92 is 15mpg.
Jason, I feel a lot of the lack of disconnect with the E92 could have been the DCT. Yes its an awesome tranny, I am not trying to start the 6spd. vs. PDK,DCT wars all over again, but I do feel some of that disconnect is the fact you had a DCT. The M3 is much more comfortable than the 997 was, at least mine with the sport seats. As it should be as it is a GT car, not a sport car.
To be honest though, the main reason of getting rid of my 997 was the fact my business had a major downturn. I could only afford one car (not including wifey's), and couldn't have a DD business car and my toy. In some respects I feel the 2 cars shouldn't even be compared as they both have completely different missions.
Dave
Jason
#27
02-14-2011, 04:26 AM
I also didn't like how "soft" the M3 felt (steering, suspension) when I had a chance to take it on an extended drive prior to getting the 997. I had everything set to sport and actually asked myself, "is sport mode on?" My wife felt the same way. A few days after we drove the M3, we test drove the cayman S and both fell in love with the way it rode and handled, even though it was down >100 hp.
Like others pointed out, I went into the M3 test drive expecting a strong pull down in the lower revs due to the flat torque curve and the fact that it's a V8, but I really had to rev it to feel the power. Nonetheless, it was faster at higher rpms than a Cayman or 997, but the P-cars felt more responsive in city driving. However, the clutch and notchy shifter of the M3 reminded me of my Z3. And the car felt big to me. I wanted a cozy sports car, and I didn't feel that way with the M3.
Overall a fabulous car though; I really wanted to like it. I had it all spec'd out, ready to buy, but the test drive was a real eye opener.
Alan
Like others pointed out, I went into the M3 test drive expecting a strong pull down in the lower revs due to the flat torque curve and the fact that it's a V8, but I really had to rev it to feel the power. Nonetheless, it was faster at higher rpms than a Cayman or 997, but the P-cars felt more responsive in city driving. However, the clutch and notchy shifter of the M3 reminded me of my Z3. And the car felt big to me. I wanted a cozy sports car, and I didn't feel that way with the M3.
Overall a fabulous car though; I really wanted to like it. I had it all spec'd out, ready to buy, but the test drive was a real eye opener.
Alan
Last edited by alan000; 02-14-2011 at 05:22 AM.
#28
02-14-2011, 06:49 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Green Garden, IL
Age: 53
Posts: 128
Rep Power: 0 I also didn't like how "soft" the M3 felt (steering, suspension) when I had a chance to take it on an extended drive prior to getting the 997. I had everything set to sport and actually asked myself, "is sport mode on?" My wife felt the same way. A few days after we drove the M3, we test drove the cayman S and both fell in love with the way it rode and handled, even though it was down >100 hp.
Like others pointed out, I went into the M3 test drive expecting a strong pull down in the lower revs due to the flat torque curve and the fact that it's a V8, but I really had to rev it to feel the power. Nonetheless, it was faster at higher rpms than a Cayman or 997, but the P-cars felt more responsive in city driving. However, the clutch and notchy shifter of the M3 reminded me of my Z3. And the car felt big to me. I wanted a cozy sports car, and I didn't feel that way with the M3.
Overall a fabulous car though; I really wanted to like it. I had it all spec'd out, ready to buy, but the test drive was a real eye opener.
Alan
Like others pointed out, I went into the M3 test drive expecting a strong pull down in the lower revs due to the flat torque curve and the fact that it's a V8, but I really had to rev it to feel the power. Nonetheless, it was faster at higher rpms than a Cayman or 997, but the P-cars felt more responsive in city driving. However, the clutch and notchy shifter of the M3 reminded me of my Z3. And the car felt big to me. I wanted a cozy sports car, and I didn't feel that way with the M3.
Overall a fabulous car though; I really wanted to like it. I had it all spec'd out, ready to buy, but the test drive was a real eye opener.
Alan
It's interesting, I owned a 2006 e63 650i coupe and it was my favorite BMW. I went in knowing that I wanted a GT car and it fit the bill perfectly. With the M3, I wanted a sports car and I wound up with a really sporty (and capable) GT car. That's ultimately why I made the switch back to Porsche.
#29
02-14-2011, 11:30 AM
TO 911 or not to 911
Ahhhh... could ponder this all day.
so machine gun style reply
Tech. Nobody mentioned it. HUGE step down from BMW. I needed bluetooth, ipod nav etc.. and only the 09- 997.2 has these avail. factory (or retrofit)
The 911 has a punishing ride at times - simple, all sports cars do. The M3 does not - its a GT. The M3 is great on a long highway trip. 911 not so much. PDK cars are better, but the revs, wind noise and tire noise at 85-90 are very obvious coming from a BMW. Again, unavoidable with nearly all sports cars. The M3 weights 700 lbs. more for a reason...
If you want a sporty car, stay with the M. If you want to buy a tool and study the art of driving - go 911. I love mine.
Prior poster hit the nail. BMWs are all becoming larger, more powerful and heavier. In other words less pure, less sports car.
If you go 05-07 997S check out the rear main seal. A known issue, but easy to completely address when replacing a clutch.
The porsche is no bull ****. It's good old boys racing car stuff. No candy coating. The M3 is a very fast comfortable GT car, with great balance, fender flares and a snarling V8. It's just not a pure sports car. BMW will never make one. It's not their way.
To each his own. If you have another vehicle, I'd definitely get the 911. I drive mine daily in the north east. If you need more comfort the M3 can't be beat.
Good luck
DRP
so machine gun style reply
Tech. Nobody mentioned it. HUGE step down from BMW. I needed bluetooth, ipod nav etc.. and only the 09- 997.2 has these avail. factory (or retrofit)
The 911 has a punishing ride at times - simple, all sports cars do. The M3 does not - its a GT. The M3 is great on a long highway trip. 911 not so much. PDK cars are better, but the revs, wind noise and tire noise at 85-90 are very obvious coming from a BMW. Again, unavoidable with nearly all sports cars. The M3 weights 700 lbs. more for a reason...
If you want a sporty car, stay with the M. If you want to buy a tool and study the art of driving - go 911. I love mine.
Prior poster hit the nail. BMWs are all becoming larger, more powerful and heavier. In other words less pure, less sports car.
If you go 05-07 997S check out the rear main seal. A known issue, but easy to completely address when replacing a clutch.
The porsche is no bull ****. It's good old boys racing car stuff. No candy coating. The M3 is a very fast comfortable GT car, with great balance, fender flares and a snarling V8. It's just not a pure sports car. BMW will never make one. It's not their way.
To each his own. If you have another vehicle, I'd definitely get the 911. I drive mine daily in the north east. If you need more comfort the M3 can't be beat.
Good luck
DRP
