Bad Carfax! CPO means nothing.
#31
I bought my 06 C4s last year at a porsche dealership. The sold me the car as a clean car with no accident and it was bought as a certified car at a reputable porsche dealership. I was in the process of selling the car when I ran a carfax report on the car for a buyer and discovered the car was involved in rear end accident three months prior to my purchase. Before I bought the car, the dealership showed me a clean carfax and told me the car was not involved in any accidents. After I found out about the accident report on the carfax, the sale fell through. I reviewed the CPO report and did not find any note about paint or body damage. I called the dealership and informed the sales manager about the reported car accident on carfax. The sale manager was surprised about the car accident and told me to bring in the car. He performed a visual inspection and found a section of the car was repainted. This experience sheds a bad light on the CPO certification and Carfax. I think it is just pure fraud on what really goes on in the resale process. It is only marketing hype that gives profits to Carfax and dealerships. The sales manager is trying to contact the previous owner but has not heard anything back. He maybe trying to work out a deal with me, but the GM is only willing to give me low trade-in value+1k over. Any advice on how to proceed?
http://www.carfaxonline.com/pdf/SUBSCRIBER_DCF.pdf
See the link for the form. The one that concerns me the most if the "frame damage" section.
This form is not easy to find, I'm sure there is a reason for it.
#32
It is disappointing that Porsche NA does not require the dealerships to state whether there is paint damage or repainted panels. At least, from what I remember on the CPO inspection, there was no specific section. Porsche relies on the dealer to follow all guides. Apparently, the guidelines are too vague. If you look on the Porsche website, it mentions the criteria of quality as:
More than 70 % of all Porsches ever built are still on the road today. This record value speaks for itself. To give you maximum security when buying a Porsche, all vehicles within the Porsche Approved Certified Pre-owned Car Program must pass a demanding quality inspection. An obligatory checklist with over 100 quality criteria is used for this purpose. This way you can rest assured that your pre-owned Porsche is in perfect condition, both technically and visually.
If a dealership can certify a car with repaint or a previous accident. It is deceptive practice. The term perfect is bs. My gripe is that Porsche certification is too subjective to allow the dealership with discretion on what perfect is. Perfect condition would mean original paint and no accident to me. If it is repainted, it needs to meet a defined factory specifications for paint (although I am not sure how this would be defined).
It has only been a few days from my last conversation with the dealership. I hope that they can compensate me. It is comforting to hear other people's stories on how similar situations have been resolved. I feel that the dealerships have all the power and I am at their mercy.
More than 70 % of all Porsches ever built are still on the road today. This record value speaks for itself. To give you maximum security when buying a Porsche, all vehicles within the Porsche Approved Certified Pre-owned Car Program must pass a demanding quality inspection. An obligatory checklist with over 100 quality criteria is used for this purpose. This way you can rest assured that your pre-owned Porsche is in perfect condition, both technically and visually.
If a dealership can certify a car with repaint or a previous accident. It is deceptive practice. The term perfect is bs. My gripe is that Porsche certification is too subjective to allow the dealership with discretion on what perfect is. Perfect condition would mean original paint and no accident to me. If it is repainted, it needs to meet a defined factory specifications for paint (although I am not sure how this would be defined).
It has only been a few days from my last conversation with the dealership. I hope that they can compensate me. It is comforting to hear other people's stories on how similar situations have been resolved. I feel that the dealerships have all the power and I am at their mercy.
MY CPO paperwork in Section D Exterior has a question as follows:
"Does the vehicle have signs of previous collision damage/repairs (vehicle is not eligible if more than 2 body panels are painted or signs of frame damage)? If yes, this vehicle may not be eligible for certification. Consult the Porsche Approved Policy and Procedure Manual for certification."
Also, checking CarFax or using a paint meter are not on the CPO checklist items - maybe they should be.
Last edited by jhbrennan; 03-02-2011 at 04:35 AM.
#33
FWIW, I called a local Porsche dealer to get a PPI on a car I was looking to purchase through a private party. I asked the dealer if they can use a paint meter on the car. The service manager said they couldn't because they do not have a paint meter because they do not have body shop on the premise and thus nobody qualified to use it. My question to him was, then how to they CPO their cars? He had no answer. Good luck and I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction.
And as far as CarFax is concerned, I'm pretty sure all a dealer has to do is contact them with a reasonable request and they will change the document/report. Kind of frightening. Garbage in - Garbage out. The best a buyer can do is try to get as much info as possible and connect the dots - no one rings a bell when you find a good one.
#34
Really??? Then how do they value cars they are taking on trade? I'm not calling any dealer in this thread dishonest, but they are business people that buy/sell cars everyday. Someone at the dealership knows how to use a paint meter. I'd like to think the best of my local dealers, but more often than not I'm disappointed. I do hope this works out to your satisfaction....I'm sure this is not the last car you will buy and I hope they treat you as a potential customer rather than a former customer.
And as far as CarFax is concerned, I'm pretty sure all a dealer has to do is contact them with a reasonable request and they will change the document/report. Kind of frightening. Garbage in - Garbage out. The best a buyer can do is try to get as much info as possible and connect the dots - no one rings a bell when you find a good one.
And as far as CarFax is concerned, I'm pretty sure all a dealer has to do is contact them with a reasonable request and they will change the document/report. Kind of frightening. Garbage in - Garbage out. The best a buyer can do is try to get as much info as possible and connect the dots - no one rings a bell when you find a good one.
I also do not think anybody treats CPO as a 'universal proof' - it is just a commercial item, a warranty what they sell. It got nothing to do with vehicle condition, if anybody thinks dealer sniffs car back and forth and takes it apart to sell you CPO status for extra premium - you must be delirious.
#36
I asked him myself to check all suspension mounts, joints, conditions of shocks, etc, he did it but it seems in normal circuimstances it was unlikely to be done.
i just do not trust anybody to do a proper job without supervision in such curcumstances in a regular shop with a new customer they have no relations with yet.
#37
I was at the dealership looking at CPO 07 Turbo. The sales guy showed me my C4s in their inventory which was a fresh trade in. As part of the sale, I had them CPO the car before I completed the sales transaction. I assummed that the CPO inspection would be the same or more than a PPI on the car.
#38
I never saw any dealer to use paint meter, they only do visual inspection.
I also do not think anybody treats CPO as a 'universal proof' - it is just a commercial item, a warranty what they sell. It got nothing to do with vehicle condition, if anybody thinks dealer sniffs car back and forth and takes it apart to sell you CPO status for extra premium - you must be delirious.
I also do not think anybody treats CPO as a 'universal proof' - it is just a commercial item, a warranty what they sell. It got nothing to do with vehicle condition, if anybody thinks dealer sniffs car back and forth and takes it apart to sell you CPO status for extra premium - you must be delirious.
OP - does your state have a deceptive trade practices law? Might drag it out if it's available to you.
#39
I've had dealers take a paint meter to cars I've traded in. I've been told that they use it to look for repaired panels and hail damage. I've also seen some use a magnet looking for bondo.
OP - does your state have a deceptive trade practices law? Might drag it out if it's available to you.
OP - does your state have a deceptive trade practices law? Might drag it out if it's available to you.
#40
If you can't trust CARFAX to be accurate then what good are they.... NONE!!!!!!
Just one more layer of BS that can't be trusted... Do your own homework and don't rely on someone else that may or may not be accurate...
You get a scratch on your quarter panel and you get it touched up... CARFAX sticks their nose in and marks your car lousy... Has the potential to take thousands out of your pocket for a non-event. Where is the benefit???
Just one more layer of BS that can't be trusted... Do your own homework and don't rely on someone else that may or may not be accurate...
You get a scratch on your quarter panel and you get it touched up... CARFAX sticks their nose in and marks your car lousy... Has the potential to take thousands out of your pocket for a non-event. Where is the benefit???
#41
FWIW, I called a local Porsche dealer to get a PPI on a car I was looking to purchase through a private party. I asked the dealer if they can use a paint meter on the car. The service manager said they couldn't because they do not have a paint meter because they do not have body shop on the premise and thus nobody qualified to use it. My question to him was, then how to they CPO their cars? He had no answer. Good luck and I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction.
#42
If you can't trust CARFAX to be accurate then what good are they.... NONE!!!!!!
Just one more layer of BS that can't be trusted... Do your own homework and don't rely on someone else that may or may not be accurate...
You get a scratch on your quarter panel and you get it touched up... CARFAX sticks their nose in and marks your car lousy... Has the potential to take thousands out of your pocket for a non-event. Where is the benefit???
Just one more layer of BS that can't be trusted... Do your own homework and don't rely on someone else that may or may not be accurate...
You get a scratch on your quarter panel and you get it touched up... CARFAX sticks their nose in and marks your car lousy... Has the potential to take thousands out of your pocket for a non-event. Where is the benefit???
#43
Have you checked the CPO documents you received on purchase?
MY CPO paperwork in Section D Exterior has a question as follows:
"Does the vehicle have signs of previous collision damage/repairs (vehicle is not eligible if more than 2 body panels are painted or signs of frame damage)? If yes, this vehicle may not be eligible for certification. Consult the Porsche Approved Policy and Procedure Manual for certification."
Also, checking CarFax or using a paint meter are not on the CPO checklist items - maybe they should be.
MY CPO paperwork in Section D Exterior has a question as follows:
"Does the vehicle have signs of previous collision damage/repairs (vehicle is not eligible if more than 2 body panels are painted or signs of frame damage)? If yes, this vehicle may not be eligible for certification. Consult the Porsche Approved Policy and Procedure Manual for certification."
Also, checking CarFax or using a paint meter are not on the CPO checklist items - maybe they should be.
#44
It's amazing this happens all the time. I had a similar incident happen to me but my delaer made things right. They took the car back and gave me a full refund and got me a similar car for not much more. The CPO was not done very well and if the OP wants to know more details, please PM me. I didn't have a bad experiences with CarFax but now I should maybe double check now that enough time has passed!
#45
I don't think this is a carfax issue - you bought the car as represented - clean, CPO, with no body damage - from a Porsche dealership! Any difference from that value is the dealership's responsibility as being the expert party in the sale. There's no way they could say "we didn't know" in court and expect a judge to buy that.
Used car salespeople get very little empathy from judges. You should firmly and kindly demand to be made whole. I would expect to pay at least 10% less for a used car with damage. You should not have to pay that difference.
My hunch is that they will make you whole. If they balk, just show them this thread.
FWIW, when I bought my 07 tt from my dealership, there was a an 07tt cab on the lot that they wouldn't CPO because (they told me) a fender was replaced and it COULDN'T be CPO'd. I couldn't tell the fender was replaced by looking at it.
Used car salespeople get very little empathy from judges. You should firmly and kindly demand to be made whole. I would expect to pay at least 10% less for a used car with damage. You should not have to pay that difference.
My hunch is that they will make you whole. If they balk, just show them this thread.
FWIW, when I bought my 07 tt from my dealership, there was a an 07tt cab on the lot that they wouldn't CPO because (they told me) a fender was replaced and it COULDN'T be CPO'd. I couldn't tell the fender was replaced by looking at it.