Do I need to move to a GT3?
#31
This is probably the direction I will take. I'll most likely see if I can get my beloved 997SC's engine replaced, and then eventually when funds allow I'll look into a Spec Miata for the track.
CATTMAN
#32
still, driving $80K car into its death just for sheer fun of it is quite a bit stupid.
discuss all the options and shop around, check if any engines are on ebay now - sometimes you can find an unexpected deal. last year dealers were selling leftover stock of x51 m97 motors for quite a nice price. take your time to find all the options.
#33
What's interesting is that the PSDS (Porsche Sport Driving School) beats the pants off their cars every day, and all they ever need to do is change the oil and rubber. However, they face no risk if they destroy a car- PCNA gets them a new one, whereas I face the expensive risk.
I really thought that I could track a 997S hard, for hours on end, and be OK. I was under the impression that they were built for that. But I suppose ANY car that gets beaten hard is at risk of failure, even the CUP cars.
CATTMAN
I really thought that I could track a 997S hard, for hours on end, and be OK. I was under the impression that they were built for that. But I suppose ANY car that gets beaten hard is at risk of failure, even the CUP cars.
CATTMAN
#34
What's interesting is that the PSDS (Porsche Sport Driving School) beats the pants off their cars every day, and all they ever need to do is change the oil and rubber. However, they face no risk if they destroy a car- PCNA gets them a new one, whereas I face the expensive risk.
I really thought that I could track a 997S hard, for hours on end, and be OK. I was under the impression that they were built for that. But I suppose ANY car that gets beaten hard is at risk of failure, even the CUP cars.
CATTMAN
I really thought that I could track a 997S hard, for hours on end, and be OK. I was under the impression that they were built for that. But I suppose ANY car that gets beaten hard is at risk of failure, even the CUP cars.
CATTMAN
but in the end all motors die.
having spent like $5K or so to re-build stock M97 engine to race specs, balane crankshaft, get lighter rods, stronger studs, etc. helps. you never know how well was everything balanced at factory, some engines are better than others, some are worse. you just never know.
some folks just use metal control and do not ever go much over 6500 rpm on street cars - some say it helps quite a bit. I do not know.
you know content of ln engineering engine articles as well as i do - so, all info is there.
as of PSDS - i bet swaps cars out every 2 years if not more often. they want customers to drive new cars. and i would not want to be an unfortunate soul who will buy one of those 'cpo' cars from any dealer after they were beaten up at PSDS.
PS. sigh up for SCDA or similar 'alternative' events that allow to rent a spec miata for a day, drive it. then try to get somebody with a spec boxster, drive it. properly built spec miata can be found for $10K-$15K budget. spec boxster is probably, well, may be $5K more expensive. maintenance of spec boxster is also more expensive but it got much more power than spec miata. and stay away from supercharged miatas - for same exact reasons you already know.
Last edited by utkinpol; 07-06-2011 at 08:34 AM.
#35
Forgive me for the naive question, but I honestly don't know the answer here ...
OP: Since you've heavily modified your motor using a SC, etc ... and you're producing far more HP then was originally intended, doesn't that alone, reduce the effective life and reliability of the motor?
OP: Since you've heavily modified your motor using a SC, etc ... and you're producing far more HP then was originally intended, doesn't that alone, reduce the effective life and reliability of the motor?
#36
Forgive me for the naive question, but I honestly don't know the answer here ...
OP: Since you've heavily modified your motor using a SC, etc ... and you're producing far more HP then was originally intended, doesn't that alone, reduce the effective life and reliability of the motor?
OP: Since you've heavily modified your motor using a SC, etc ... and you're producing far more HP then was originally intended, doesn't that alone, reduce the effective life and reliability of the motor?
adding SC changes some parameters, most critical of them are related to effective temperature of a block and all subsequent issues related to cooling. there is a SC car here in MA that runs 9psi and it has very interesting 'sandwich' front radiator that combines regular primary coolant circle 3rd radiator with additional SC intercooler radiator in front.
issues SC systems get are not unique to Porsche, there are plenty of FI systems on Hondas, Supras, Mustangs, Vettes, some of them run longer, some of them blow. My opinion is all it depends of how well stock engine was assembled and balanced at factory. To take it apart and re-balance takes quie an effort. Probably it would also worth to increase diameter of coolant passages in a stock M97 block for SC system. Who knows.
IMS bearing on '05 engine could still fall apart no matter what. It is damn difficult to predict.
But one way or another when one decides to mess up with stock engine and put any 'improvement' into it - you better have enough money for a new one if anything happens - it is just a fair game, that`s all. no guarantees.
#37
Makes sense ... especially this last part.
#38
my dad`s older brother was into performance cars and his concept was always same - to get spare engine and while he ran one in the car he had other one in works so he could swap at any time he wanted... if only those M96 ones were cheaper i would do same, it just makes sense.
would be great also to ditch all that MAF electrical crap and put in 100% mechanical throttle intake controls like in older cars. al this modern sh$t just brakes when you need it most... and does not do anything new compared to how engines used to work all the times before.
just to think of it how many m96/m97 engines blew already and how many 993 and 964 cars are still running... Now people say DMEs started to die as chips got older and cause misfire issues on 997 cars. Total bummer. Less electrical parts you got - the better race car it is.
would be great also to ditch all that MAF electrical crap and put in 100% mechanical throttle intake controls like in older cars. al this modern sh$t just brakes when you need it most... and does not do anything new compared to how engines used to work all the times before.
just to think of it how many m96/m97 engines blew already and how many 993 and 964 cars are still running... Now people say DMEs started to die as chips got older and cause misfire issues on 997 cars. Total bummer. Less electrical parts you got - the better race car it is.
#39
Some 997 racecars actually use 993 air-cooled engines.
Those early engines, like the one in my '87 Carrera 3.2 cost much, much more than a new 997 engine.
As for the added stress of adding an SC to my 997, cooling isn't the issue. In fact, my intake temps and oil temps were lower with the SC than without due to the stand-alone radiator and cooling system for the intercooler.
I was running a very conservative 6.1 psi at WOT at redline, and I was hardly ever there. Usually running 0 psi boost, and when on it, about 2-3psi boost.
But an IMS bearing failure isn't related, it's just a crappy bearing.
CATTMAN
Those early engines, like the one in my '87 Carrera 3.2 cost much, much more than a new 997 engine.
As for the added stress of adding an SC to my 997, cooling isn't the issue. In fact, my intake temps and oil temps were lower with the SC than without due to the stand-alone radiator and cooling system for the intercooler.
I was running a very conservative 6.1 psi at WOT at redline, and I was hardly ever there. Usually running 0 psi boost, and when on it, about 2-3psi boost.
But an IMS bearing failure isn't related, it's just a crappy bearing.
CATTMAN
#40
John, with all respect to what you think - statistics of longivity on m96/m97 supercharged cars that see a lot of track action is not on your side and you are a part of it now, unfortunately.
internal overheat got little to do with what outside sensor shows - it is same issue ln engineering wrote about but you put out more power from block, you get more dissipated heat into block, even as it cools down later it is still in the block. it is just plain laws of physics. bearings die from vibration and lack of lubrication - what was the culprit in your case - who knows. and honestly, it does not really matter. sh$t happens, end of story.
anyway, how is it going with PCNA? did they tell you anything?
internal overheat got little to do with what outside sensor shows - it is same issue ln engineering wrote about but you put out more power from block, you get more dissipated heat into block, even as it cools down later it is still in the block. it is just plain laws of physics. bearings die from vibration and lack of lubrication - what was the culprit in your case - who knows. and honestly, it does not really matter. sh$t happens, end of story.
anyway, how is it going with PCNA? did they tell you anything?
#41
Or warranties.
#42
Since you mention spec miata, I'll just chime in that that you should pick your track car based on the events that you want to do. This is particulrly pertinent for spec miata and that type of car. I can speak from experience with my 944NA, which has similar power to weight. Spec Maita makes a good race car, if you want to race, but for DE, it's just so-so. It can be very frustrating to share a DE track with faster cars and less-experienced drivers.
#43
why 997.1? 997.2 is way better, its spasm is pretty perfectm sways are better and more power. people say withh minor work they get it to same 450 horses as with rs car.
but, well, buying into used beaten up gt3 car (and good luck finding one that wasn`t tracked) - imho gt3 car with expired warranty can bite you very hard, it will need quite serious financial reserves in case if anything happens. imho if one if crazy enough to get dedicated track only gt3 car then it may be worth it jump directly into 996 cup car, motor is better than in any gt3, gearbox is less demanding than 997 cup sequential and it seems it may cost not that much more than to support 997.1 gt3.
but, well, buying into used beaten up gt3 car (and good luck finding one that wasn`t tracked) - imho gt3 car with expired warranty can bite you very hard, it will need quite serious financial reserves in case if anything happens. imho if one if crazy enough to get dedicated track only gt3 car then it may be worth it jump directly into 996 cup car, motor is better than in any gt3, gearbox is less demanding than 997 cup sequential and it seems it may cost not that much more than to support 997.1 gt3.
#44
my car is better as I do own it already.