Guys, I could really use some tire advice.

Background: I need to replace my current Pirellis. I've got another 5-7 track days this year and expect 15-20 days next year. On the recommendation of some of the track vets here (shout out to Steamboat, Utkinpol, Tcouture and MDrums) I've already done a more aggressive alignment (toe and camber) to help with turn-in and tire management. I don't want to change more than that for the foreseeable future. Also, I have a spare set of OEM 19" lobster forks that I could use.


I've read a bunch of past tire threads but am having trouble deciding the best course of action for my situation. Basically, I need to decide whether to stick with one set of tires for both street and track or buy a second set for just track use. Since it's tough to swap wheels on a Manhattan street and store a set in my apartment, I have a definite preference for the one set solution, but would do two sets if guys felt strongly about that.

So, a couple questions:

1. Anyone here significanlty track-tested the Hankooks Ventus and able to recommend them? I know this topic has been touched on but hoping with the summer halfway gone that more data is in.
2. Michelin Pilot Sports: Opinions on how these would wear at the track versus Hankooks or a dedicated track tire.
3. If I do the two set solution: I've got a 120 mile drive each way to the track. If I go with Toyos RA's for the second set, will I put significant wear on them going to and from the track? How much shorter/longer do Toyos last on the track versus say a Michelin Pilot Sport?


As you can tell from these questions, I'm more interested in containing costs right now than finding more performance at the track. That will probably change eventually, but for now I'm having fun and learning while trying not to break the bank with new tires too often. If I'm off base with the tires I mentioned or my thinking please set me straight! Any and all advice is much appreciated.

 

The Michelin Pilot Super Sports are a great tire all around

 

I recently did a search on heat cycles over at Rennlist since I have been interested in upgrading to an R-comp tire as well. Interestingly, the general consensus seemed to be that the slicks, Hoosiers for example, cycle out in 8-10 sessions or basically on one weekend of DE. (A heat cycle involves bringing the tire up to track temps and then allowing to cool. It doesn't matter how long the driving session is unless you're running enduros.) As you move towards a harder tire, Michelin Sport Cups (r-comps) for example, they might get 20-25 cycles although although there was quite a bit of variation in reported results. It was pointed out by several respondents that many of these tires look perfectly fine but once heat cycled out, the grip simply is significantly diminished or altogether gone. They might still be fine for the street in dry conditions but the track will tell a different story.

Another interesting question is whether a heat cycle is incurred driving on the street or to the track. The opinions were split on this. Some thought you simply can't get these tires up to track temps on the street even doing spirited driving while others thought it might be possible if ambient and pavement temperatures were high enough. So perhaps for planning purposes, think 5-6 days of DE and rolling around town a bit before an r-comp goes away.

Which brings us back to the lowly street tire. They too will eventually heat cycle out but not for a (relatively) long time - perhaps an entire season. My best guess is that an r-comp is about 2% faster than a street tire and a slick is another 2% faster than the r-comp if your suspension is set up to handle it so you give up about 2.5 seconds on a 2 minute lap at each step. Is it worth it? If you're racing, undoubtedly, but for a DE, I guess the question is not as easy to answer. Also to be factored in is as you step up to r-comps and then slicks, is that wet weather performance (and perhaps your ability to get home) progressively goes in the tank. Some day I'll probably get an additional set of r-comps or slicks and rent a storage locker close to the track (I have a 250 mile drive each way) and go through the hassle of changing them out each time. But not today. I'm very happy with my Potenza RE-11's and will likely replace them with the same later this summer. I'm still waiting to get some track reports on the new Michelin Super Sports but I'm dubious that they will be better. We can always hope though.

I can't help much with the Ventus since I've never used them but there are the RS-3 (a new offering) and the V12. The RS-3 is roughly twice as expensive as the V12 so I would assume there are significant differences. One final thought too; if you haven't upgraded your sway bars and coilovers I would consider those moves before thinking about a more aggressive tire set up. Hope this helps. Best regards,

 

Having a tire that does everything well is going to be tough to find, there needs to be a give and take on different areas. I personally would run different tires on the track then the street. Have you thought about having a shop near the track "manage" your track wheels for you? They can swap and store them for you.

 

^^ Agreed.

The best dual purpose street/track tire I have tried yet are the Yoko AD-08's.

Big tread blocks get a little noisey, but they grip like stink and have a super stiff sidewall.

 

Funny you say that, I really like my set of Yokohama Advan Sports. I am not a fan of the Pzero or MPS2 or MPSC.

 

Hancooks and ps2 are street tires and will get trashed on the track. I use the nitto nt1 for the track and the hancooks for the street. If you want something for both check out Dunlop derizza.

 

I've used the RE-11s on both street and track. It's a good dual purpose tire. Plus I got 2 DE weekends and 15000 miles on a set. The car was a Cayman S.

 

The best route with all the track time you have coming is a second set of dedicated track wheels/tires.

If you have to split 1 set then check into the Hancook RS3s. They are the same rubber compound as the z214 hard compound slick but with a large block treat pattern so it can take the abuse of DEs. They have the 245/305 that will fit your stock wheels well. Good luck!

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....el=Ventus+R-S3

 

Which size would you go with those? 245 & 285??

 

On his 19s he can go 245/305.

 

you have to decide if you want to keep only one set of wheels or if you will get 2 sets. if you goinf to do more than 3-4 DE events per season I would say it will be cheaper to get second set of wheels for sport.

Depending of what wheels you got now it will dictate what rubber to use. Stay away from cheap street hankooks.
read this article:
http://www.autocross.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=5084

'streetable' autocross tires are what you want to use essentially on your sport rims. everything will depend of what sizes are your rims. some folks get wide rims for street - imho it is a total waste of money, you NEVER will need track level of traction on street. regular dunlop Z1 star specs in 235 front 275 rear is pretty much all street driving needs. Or RE11 tires. Or even Conti DWS if you do not care of maximum dry traction.
For sport rims you want at least 8.5" wide rim in front. Say, if you got 8.5" in front and 11" in rear you can run 245/305 tires which are quite available. wider rims give better traction, most typical sport size is 18" 9" wide front 12" wide rear which uses 255 or 265 tire in front and 315 or 335 tire in rear. Recently availability of such r-comp tires came to almost none, only 255/315 combo left is Toyo R888, most 'street' tires also do not such sizes, so, decide carefully what is it you want to do as rim size will dictate your selection of rubber to run.

I had 2 different wider aftermarket rims sets for street, i got rid of it all and now back with carrera classic rims in 18" with Z1 star spec dunlops for street in 235 front 275 rear. perfect rubber.
for sport i use toyo ra1 - 245 front 335 rear. this combo is not asn optimal as it can be but ra1 is way better than r888 toyos so i compensate with suspension setup to offset understeer caused by sizing mismatch.

 

OP here. Thanks very much for all responses so far. Pls keep em coming.
Is great to hear the double duty tire recs, but a bit frustrating too since so many brands have been vouched for -- Yokos, RE-11's, RS3's, Direzza's, etc.

To the guys who think I should use my second set of 19"s for the track: Pls educate me. What is the reason? Here's what I know -- am I missing something else?

1. Track performance: Not significant to me at this time. Enjoying learning to drive properly at speed, even if it's not the absolute fastest I could be going.
2. Maintaining integrity of street tires for bad weather: makes sense but not a big factor for me (I think). I don't drive often in rain, and when I do, I take it easy (and have 4WD).
3. Cost. If Steamboat is right, and I bet he is, then what I'd save on sparing my street tires the abuse of the track, I'd give back and then some on going through dedicated track tires. That is, the track tires last shorter, not longer.

Ed -- Having someone near the track store and swap for me is a good idea, but doesn't work for me since I get to the track at night and am at tech the next morning.

Brando -- I think you're close. I don't mind a little noisey at all (my exhaust setup is pretty loud anyway). Would you say the Yokos are as noisey (humming) as the Toyo's?

Paul -- this is good stuff and solid article but I already have 2 sets of 19"s (my everyday Turbo rims and the spare lobster forks) so I don't think I want to buy 18"s for now.

 

I just posted a video of a track day on the Hankook ventus v12s. The track was 130 degrees and I drove the car about 300 miles to the track. The tires held up fine on about 6 20 minutes sessions as hard as I could beat on them. They were nearly brand new when I left home. I didn't notice a lot of wear when I got home. They stuck reasonably well for a street tire and I had a blast trying to smoke them. I don't think they are quite as sticky as the PS2 but they are good. If you are not racing for money or a living, I don't see much use in worrying about how many 10ths you shave off a lap. Plus I can go through 2 sets of kooks compared to any other tire.

 

For track day purpose, I recommend Yoko AD08 and/or BS RE11. Proformance are very close on all aspects but Yoko is slightly better.


Michelin PS2 is street tyres and is about 2 sec/lap slower than the above tyres in 1.30 min lap and Michelin Sport Cup is 4 sec/lap faster than the PS2