According to the three criteria I gave, I would put the 911 on a higher level than the C63, and Gary does seem to acknowledge the possibility of there being levels, since he argues that there's no level above the 911.

But I agree that the 911 and C63 are quite different cars for different purposes. The 911 is a sports car which is comfy enough to be a daily driver. The C63 is a sports sedan with a real back seat and trunk. I'm glad to have both, and had a blast driving both today.

 

To the OP:
As you undoubtedly already know from reading this thread, your question will elicit very subjective (i.e. personal) responses. The word 'better' means nothing in and of itself. What is 'better' for me may be a trivial change for you and vice versa. So all we can do, is give you OUR take on 'better'.

I am on my 4th 911. I had a 996 C4, a 996TT stock, a 996TT modified to 560HP and now a 997 C2S Cab.

A couple of things:
1. After 6 months driving my 997 C2S, I still missed the power and the rush that my 560HP 996TT gave me.
2. I purchased an aftermarket turbo kit for my 997 C2S, along with a short shifter and a new stage 2 clutch and a completely new exhaust system.
3. The car is completely transformed and now behaves like I wanted it to in my imagination.

Now: are there cars better?
I have had the pleasure to drive the Bugatti Veyron and the Ferrari F430 Scuderia (neither car owned by me).

If someone offered me to swap my C2S turbo for a F430 Scuderia (with an amount of cash I could afford), I would do it in a NANOSECOND.

So: I am a habitual Porsche buyer. But I'm not a Porsche fanboy. I love CARS. To me (and this is only applicable to ME personally), the F430 provides a visceral pleasure that is hard to quantify and that would lead me away from Porsche if I could afford it.

And I have not yet driven the 599GTO, the F458 Italia or the McLaren MP4-12C, all of which are on my 'bucket list'.

Realistically speaking, the 911 is as close to car nirvana as I am going to get for a while, especially now I turned my C2S into a snarling, growling dragon....

 

Thanks, that's an honest, interesting, and useful response, in the spirit in which this thread was started.

What did you think of the Veyron? That's a car I'm pretty sure I'll never get to drive.

Glad you're enjoying your transformed C2S.

 

I don't know about the troll comment, but personally I think the GTR is more aptly titled "junk" than a C2S... No emotionalism here, no angst, just opinion. You couldn't GIVE me a GTR. I don't care how fast it goes.

A turd can always go faster if you fling it harder.

But the GTR lacks so much that ANY decent 911 has in spades. Class, refinement, heritage, and the fact that it does so well with a rear-engine. Those who like the GTR, that's fine. But it's no C2S. Even if the GTR is "faster". You can change that with a C2S, too...

 

Exactly.

Perspective is everything. If we all agreed that there was nothing substantially better than a 911 (all ranges), no other car manufacturer would be business. Looks like there are other, better, cars out there.

 

C2's certainly are not junk, but aggressively driving a 996 GT2 with no traction control and 750 rwhp on street tires requires skill. Driving a C2 does not.

With regard to the OPs' question; I think the key word here is 'substantially'. No, I don't think their are many (any?) cars that are 'substantially' better than a 911. They are wonderful cars.

 

Seems like Porsche has actually turned the rear-engine layout into an asset rather than a liability. Makes me wonder why other brands haven't followed suit. My guess is that their resulting cars would be so similar to the 911 that they would look like blatant copies.

 

Agreed. That was the point of my comment about diminishing returns, with a Ferrari and Veyron maybe being a "little" better than a 911, but with the added cost being way more than the added benefit.

 

IMHO, what the 911 delivers, is incredible value in a refined platform. You could spend a tad less, or far more $$ (2-3x the price). I don't think you can get a better package for the $$ when all is said & done.

 

Regardless of whether your conclusion is right or wrong, that argument doesn't work. There would still be other manufacturers if those other cars were different, but on the same level and not better. Same way that I find lots of cuisines (or guitars) to be great, and quite different from each other, without feeling that one is generally better than another.

 

Absolutely.

Of course, the owners of more expensive cars will always attempt to rationalize why their cars are 'leagues better', 'in a different class', or why there is 'no comparison' to what they perceive to be lesser cars. But it's typically BS that many poseurs spout in order to justify the costs associated with their purchases. The Ferrari guys use these arguments on the Porsche guys. The Porsche guys use them on the the BMW guys. Heck, the 997 Turbo S owners try to use them on the GT-R guys.

The truth is, from an overall perspective, Porsche 911s are near 10-15% as good as any car on the planet, regardless of what measuring stick you use.

 

Manifold:
The Veyron is like nothing else. Having a thousand HP ready to whoosh and howl just behind your head, while you're sitting cosseted in snugly fitting padded seats, surrounded by leather, brushed aluminum and exotic wood, is something to behold.

Unlock the 'final 300', taking the car off the leash and take it from 700 to 1000 HP. It squats, the spoiler goes down, you bury your foot into the floor and watch the landscape turn into a blur. Warp speed is the closest image I can use.

 

Of course I completely disagree with you, since in reality the GT-R is within 10-15% as good as any car on the planet as well. But this isn't about the GT-R. It's about the 911. One of the best cars on earth.

 

Great vivid description, like I'm right there now!

Relative to the thread topic and the criteria I proposed, would you say that the Veyron is "substantially better" than the 911?

 

Subjective, but I would certainly say that. But then I belive the Veyron is the top dog production car on planet earth. It's the 99th percentile automobile. It's probably 'substantially' better than anything. And at $1.5M, I would hope it would be.